Framing others using "ligger"

[Epoc]

In a recent round, a changeling used their voice change ability to impersonate the HoS.
They then sent radio messages as the HoS, using the word "ligger", which as per viewtopic.php?f=33&t=34353, renders them valid.
The HoS was then killed by a lizard who believed they were valid, when in fact, it was the changeling who used the term while framing the HoS.

It could be argued that this sort of situation is natural in a game that revolves around deception.
To me, this seems like a blatant abuse of policy. This sort of strategy has no bearing in-character.

Thoughts?

[Justice12354]

I don't see a problem with it, personally. It's the same as the Changeling using voice chance to make the Mime valid. Do you believe that is equally bad?

[vect0r]

That’s a changeling moment.

[TheLoLSwat]

changeling moment, only thing that should be off limits is like rule 8 stuff

[Vekter]

I think there could be some concerns if this is used enough, but it definitely sounds like a changeling moment. Just write it off as a comms agent, most people will believe you.

[Timberpoes]

MSO has stated in the admin channels on this topic:

MrStonedOne — 02/08/2023 12:42
[ligger validity is] an ooc ruling so abusing it as a tator is metagaming
for the wgw one at least that was what the logic was. there is only ooc rule reasons to want to do it
its a murky line
one of the benefits to the previous non-committal stance of not explicitly saying they were valid valid =P

This isn't a particularly novel situation in that regard and older admins would remember the situation back from when WGW reading was a thing.

As always, admin discretion on if and/or when this is enforced continues to be a thing; we should never let the rules get in the way of a good story and I don't want to box the admin team into a specific mandatory ruling. I expect them to be sensible and use their entire admin toolbox - from ahelp tickets to IC announcements to deathsquads to Godly revivals - to resolve these issues.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I don't believe using OOC "kill words" that make you instantly valid and not allowed to defend yourself to start fights is a good thing to let comms agents/lings do.

[Longestarmlonglaw]

I don't believe using OOC "kill words" that make you instantly valid and not allowed to defend yourself to start fights is a good thing to let comms agents/lings do.

If you've been framed to say a kill word, You probably won't be bwoinked for self defense murdering your attackers, you weren't TRYING to provoke them.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Timber put it best. This is specifically using metaknowledge and thus very blatantly against Rule 2.

[nukularpower]

imo this ruling is wrong on the basic level - I dont care how much someone offends you IRL, you probably arent going to murder them, and if you would, you probably need help. Why is it different here?

[Indie-ana Jones]

Perhaps the lesson to learn is that valid words are stupid and if you don't want people to say a word, you put it on the word filter and be done with it.

Ever since this ruling, I just see doors with pieces of paper that say ligger on them, but nobody says it.

[The Wrench]

Ban it under rule 11 already

[Timberpoes]

Banning ligger is an MSO skill issue.

Maybe next term will put some energy into overthrowing the host instead of trying to fork the codebase or splitting LRP off from tg. Lots of small-picture candidates on the horizon though, so I don't think we'll see a bigger picture host coup anytime soon.

Until it loses its protected status, it will still be a usable word on the game servers.

Relying on its OOC validity status as an antag is metagaming.

That said, it's up to individual admins as to whether they give this a pass or bwoink players when they see ligger weaponised in this manner by antags.

[CPTANT]

Maybe next term will put some energy into overthrowing the host instead of trying to fork the codebase or splitting LRP off from tg.

What is this referring to?

[Timberpoes]

Maybe next term will put some energy into overthrowing the host instead of trying to fork the codebase or splitting LRP off from tg.

What is this referring to?

Some of the candidate threads for incoming headmins.

In less than a month we'll have 3 new faces ruling on policy and Hugs/Kieth/Poes will slither off back into the shadows.

Making saying ligger a straight rule 11 breach isn't something the headmins can actually do, because it's got special protections from MSO. Only way to change that (at least at this point in time) is an insurrection.

[MooCow12]

If its metagaming to know that saying the L word will get you killed that mean players have a free pass to say it and feign ignorance that what they did made them valid.

Im pretty sure i was the ling trying to make a point that this is a policy nightmare.

There is also the case of not purposefully weaponizing the word but wanting to get away with saying it as an antag, which is easily done in a different voice albeit that could be in a random persons made up name not an actual crew member


Then there is the instance of saying the word without voice change to make yourself valid and then transform stinging others to make them you, only being metagame if you arnt supposed to know youre valid for saying that



Tldr this type of ruling doesnt work under metagaming because then its under the basis that its knowledge that you shouldnt be aware of in game, it should fall under something else.

[Boot]

Framing others for ligger is cool and based way to push back against the terrible policy this headmin term has instituted.

Framing people for stuff that makes them valid (wgw, killing Ian, cutting down the Christmas tree) has been one of the most soulful things this game has to offer.

[Vekter]

This thread isn't for discussing the policy itself, but for handling the issue where someone can make someone else valid by pretending to be them and saying the word. If you want to discuss the policy itself, make a new thread.

[Fren256]

If its metagaming to know that saying the L word will get you killed that mean players have a free pass to say it and feign ignorance that what they did made them valid.

Ignorantia juris non excusat.

Just because you "didn't know" about a headmin ruling that doesn't mean you should walk away scot-free. Obviously an exception should be made to new players, but in your case it shouldn't. Headmin rulings (should) carry the same weight as the rules, otherwise there would be no point in them existing.

[MooCow12]

Just because you "didn't know" about a headmin ruling that doesn't mean you should walk away scot-free. Obviously an exception should be made to new players, but in your case it shouldn't. Headmin rulings (should) carry the same weight as the rules, otherwise there would be no point in them existing.

You clearly dont understand the point being made, if something is metagaming then its not acting on knowledge that your in game character should know about.

Picture a changeling seeing someone get lynched for saying L word so they start framing people for saying L word in the same round, at that point its not metagame and the only person meta`ing is the people who already knew L word = lynch.

[Fren256]

Just because you "didn't know" about a headmin ruling that doesn't mean you should walk away scot-free. Obviously an exception should be made to new players, but in your case it shouldn't. Headmin rulings (should) carry the same weight as the rules, otherwise there would be no point in them existing.

You clearly dont understand the point being made, if something is metagaming then its not acting on knowledge that your in game character should know about.

Picture a changeling seeing someone get lynched for saying L word so they start framing people for saying L word in the same round, at that point its not metagame and the only person meta`ing is the people who already knew L word = lynch.

It... still counts as the ling player metagaming because of the ruling, regardless of how you want to picture it in an IC situation.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Just because you "didn't know" about a headmin ruling that doesn't mean you should walk away scot-free. Obviously an exception should be made to new players, but in your case it shouldn't. Headmin rulings (should) carry the same weight as the rules, otherwise there would be no point in them existing.

You clearly dont understand the point being made, if something is metagaming then its not acting on knowledge that your in game character should know about.

Picture a changeling seeing someone get lynched for saying L word so they start framing people for saying L word in the same round, at that point its not metagame and the only person meta`ing is the people who already knew L word = lynch.

Almost every single rule in the game only stops you from doing something because of your metaknowledge that it's against the rules.

[CPTANT]

Just because you "didn't know" about a headmin ruling that doesn't mean you should walk away scot-free. Obviously an exception should be made to new players, but in your case it shouldn't. Headmin rulings (should) carry the same weight as the rules, otherwise there would be no point in them existing.

You clearly dont understand the point being made, if something is metagaming then its not acting on knowledge that your in game character should know about.

Picture a changeling seeing someone get lynched for saying L word so they start framing people for saying L word in the same round, at that point its not metagame and the only person meta`ing is the people who already knew L word = lynch.

It... still counts as the ling player metagaming because of the ruling, regardless of how you want to picture it in an IC situation.

It's metagming to know in universe that saying ligger to a ligger is extremely offensive?

[Festkongendk]

Even if MSO says its' not allowed I feel like the ruling on this is coming from too obscure of a place for both most players and most admins to be aware of it. Just ban the word entirely.

[wesoda25]

Saying "ligger" making you valid is an elegant solution until it's not. Thus another argument in favor of just hard filtering the word. Short of that, soft filter would help admins in policing this sort of thing

[CPTANT]

Even if MSO says its' not allowed I feel like the ruling on this is coming from too obscure of a place for both most players and most admins to be aware of it. Just ban the word entirely.

Or just return it to how it always was without any problems? An offensive derogatory term for lizards that was enough reason to instigate conflict but did not make you completely validsalid without being able to fight back. It would solve this entire issue of using it to frame others.

[TheLoLSwat]

I really don’t see an issue with a changeling using it to frame someone. It isn’t the most difficult to prove your innocence (especially if you are near anyone while “you” are screaming slurs on radio), and if someone attacks you then you can just fight back? This is a unique way antags can get nonantags to fight

[MooCow12]

It certainly does make for a more interesting round than just silent murderboning and getting shuttle called but thats not a point I want to commit to.

[datorangebottle]

It's metagming to know in universe that saying ligger to a ligger is extremely offensive?

It's metagaming to know that saying 'ligger' at all, to anyone, is enough to justify people hunting you down and killing you.

[MooCow12]

It's metagaming to know that saying 'ligger' at all, to anyone, is enough to justify people hunting you down and killing you.

Which means its metagaming to know you can hunt someone down and kill them for saying ligger o_o

[Archie700]

Remember when antags tried to game the system by using Woody's Got Wood to frame people and get them lynched until it got banned under metagaming?

This is similar.

[Boot]

The difference is that wgw broke the rules and ligger explicitly doesn't.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

The difference is that wgw broke the rules and ligger explicitly doesn't.

You werent allowed to use WGW to frame people even before it was against the rules to read over comms.

[Vekter]

The difference is that wgw broke the rules and ligger explicitly doesn't.

We made WGW against the rules because people were using it to escalation bait and we ended up deciding it was better to just ban it than to deal with all the people doing it. There was a long period where WGW didn't break the rules but still made you valid.

[Boot]

The difference is that wgw broke the rules and ligger explicitly doesn't.

We made WGW against the rules because people were using it to escalation bait and we ended up deciding it was better to just ban it than to deal with all the people doing it. There was a long period where WGW didn't break the rules but still made you valid.

I always thought that saying copypasta over comms was always a violation of the no spamming rule that made you valid no?

[Vekter]

The difference is that wgw broke the rules and ligger explicitly doesn't.

We made WGW against the rules because people were using it to escalation bait and we ended up deciding it was better to just ban it than to deal with all the people doing it. There was a long period where WGW didn't break the rules but still made you valid.

I always thought that saying copypasta over comms was always a violation of the no spamming rule that made you valid no?

I recall it explicitly being reading erotica.

[Cobby]

Players should be confirming the person actually said it similar to how silicons cant just rely on word of mouth that the person the hos just harmed was a ling, especially when the only reason youre doing it is because you have a green light. If there is some actual ambiguity then obviously its emergent gameplay, but its so stupid how people will use the "youre allowed to know about antag mechanics" rule only when it is convenient. At least when you just braindead killed WGW readers you can say you didnt like the chat spam, theres no problem with a mime speaking or someone using a magic word.

You are allowed to know agent masks and lings exist in the game world, you have no excuse to just unga bunga kill someone because you saw their name and green-lit text on the most obvious place people who are framing will put it.

That said lings should obviously be allowed to do this, the onus should be on the individual using the most flimsiest of excuses to get a valid to at least pretend like they looked into it.

[Archie700]

Players should be confirming the person actually said it similar to how silicons cant just rely on word of mouth that the person the hos just harmed was a ling, especially when the only reason youre doing it is because you have a green light. If there is some actual ambiguity then obviously its emergent gameplay, but its so stupid how people will use the "youre allowed to know about antag mechanics" rule only when it is convenient. At least when you just braindead killed WGW readers you can say you didnt like the chat spam, theres no problem with a mime speaking or someone using a magic word.

You are allowed to know agent masks and lings exist in the game world, you have no excuse to just unga bunga kill someone because you saw their name and green-lit text on the most obvious place people who are framing will put it.

That said lings should obviously be allowed to do this, the onus should be on the individual using the most flimsiest of excuses to get a valid to at least pretend like they looked into it.

I can bet you that the moment some Comms agent says Unlucky McDoomed says the l-word on Comms about 5 people will already beating him to death before someone says "wait did he say that"

The cynical fact is that some players are dumb and hunt for vailds like a hawk and we can't fix that by just telling them. The moment they hear the word their fingers get sweaty, their nether regions get hot, and their mind goes "me make player go horizontal ook ook"

[Cobby]

No the issue is no one is pushing back at all right now (hence why we have this thread). Once people start catching notes for braindead killing the behavior will be curbed like any others.

That makes a lot more sense than being able to talk BUT if you talk pretending to disguise as the mime and they kill the real one that’s now an ooc issue against you.

If we are talking like LRP you don’t even need a reason to be framed, it shouldn’t suddenly become not ok for antags to frame because they did so In a way admins don’t push back against players on.

[wesoda25]

Greenlighting a method of saying the word, if only for antags, falls short of what it meant to achieve I think. The community can’t exactly police itself if they have to worry about the burden of proof.

[Cobby]

You would still be allowed to detain or otherwise subdue the person, which would still deter people from using the word themselves. You are not OWED a kill. There is no gameplay disadvantage associated with a mime talking or a person saying ligger.

If you wanted the word banned then well ban the word. If you cant because you have been overruled by MSO (which I think is the case here), it is very cheeky to go "well its NOT banned BUT you lose all your IC protections if you say the word". It falls short when you dont do the bare minimum effort of actually confirming the person said the word, grieffing one person AND letting the guy who actually said the word go free.

For mimes the entire rule is predicated on the mime actually speaking. The purpose of the rule falls very short when you just kill people without actually seeing for yourself if they spoke.

The community absolutely needs to be able to prove bad actions were taken if they are expected to police themselves, which is also true of admins. If you are going to play vigilante, at least pretend like you looked into the issue.

[MooCow12]

People keep forgetting that a large portion of the game is deception.

I think the real issue is mechanically winning fights is all people care about meanwhile lieing and subversion take a back seat most of the time.

Even stealth antags do not use deception, often times stealth antags are just ones that dont get caught on their murder spree, they dont sow chaos by dismantling the chain of command via deception and turning the crew against eachother.


The community needs healthy mental exercise which it isnt getting (if youve played the mafia gamemode it becomes extremely apparent)

[Pandarsenic]

We had this exact same conversation about WGW before it got banned, and let's be real

We ought to just cut the Gordian Knot and ban it outright, just like we did with WGW. Better to just get it over with, because I'm pretty sure that's the way it's going to go sooner or later.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

We had this exact same conversation about WGW before it got banned, and let's be real

We ought to just cut the Gordian Knot and ban it outright, just like we did with WGW. Better to just get it over with, because I'm pretty sure that's the way it's going to go sooner or later.

Well that isn't an option, the word has Host protection.

[Pandarsenic]

There was a time everyone thought WGW would never really be banned because somehow people were convinced it was "soul" or something.

Eventually, people realized it contributes nothing and every round it's present in is worse of for having it. It's not funny, it's not clever, it's not creative, it's not interesting, and the downsides of having it in any form far outstrip the upsides of "you can say it but anyone can fuck you up over it"

Sooner or later, I think it's inevitable that this issue is going to go the exact same way. People are going to realize that they pretty much can't remember a single time that a round was better off for having this in it. In the end, the playerbase will collectively say it's better off to remove it entirely. If it follows WGW's trajectory as closely as I suspect it might, if we don't shortcut to there, when it finally happens a lot of people are going to be saying we should have done it earlier.

[Cobby]

WGW actually spams your chat though, a single word causing such a viceral response is because you the OOC individual is putting a ton of stake into it.

Now if someone is spamming Ligger in chat then thats already a rule 1 issue from spamming.

Im really unimpressed by the idea that because the host made a ruling admins dislike that theyve just not enforced any semblance of protection against these people, especially when we start talking about non-lizards just beating up people for using the greenlit word. Doubly so when we get to this specific issue where the people arent actually beating up the person using the word, but because admins have enabled this stupid response to the word nopony seems to care.

I do agree with the general notion IC policing of OOC issues is problematic, but I dont agree that because the host calls Ligger an IC allowable that means anyperson who uses it has no OOC protection (especially the person who didnt say it but is being treated like they did). They obviously instigate escalation against the person they used it upon but its really weird how its just allowed to forgo any conflict-building and straight to "lol just can them".

[TheLoLSwat]

For example if someone frames the RD for saying the l word, if the RD kills someone trying to kill them (after explaining that they didn’t say it of course) isn’t that just fuck around and find out?

[blackdav123]

just treat it the same as mimes talking. if a mime "talks" over radio and you beeline to the theater to rip them in half and it ends up someone else was the mime talking then its on you for killing someone without good evidence.

if you dont see the person in front of you doing it you shouldnt be rushing your escalation on it.

if someone does keep insulting you over radio go find them and tell them to say it to your face or something to figure out if it really is them doing it.

[DaydreamIQ]

You'd think MSO would've learned from all the trouble WGW caused than to just go "Oh yeah, just give people a pass to round remove those who say it no questions asked". Sooner or later we're gonna end up going full circle and banning the word entirely.

[CPTANT]

Why don't we just go back to the situation we had before where the word was merely insulting IC and there was no problem whatsoever.....