LET THE CONFIG SAY FUCK (MANUEL)

[TheBibleMelts]

PLAYER CAP 60

OBSERVER CAP 100

ASSISTANT CAP 10

PRISONER CAP 5

DO IT

[dragomagol]

+1 however i'm scared that the lizard has rabies

[MooCow12]

You shouldn't throw a wrench in one of the only 2 servers that's alive.

[NecromancerAnne]

The pop hitting above 60 has been very stressful to handle and has made actually playing on the server pretty rough. I'm okay with having trouble joining a round if that means the quality of said round improves (though that probably means I just admin instead).

[Jacquerel]

I know that previous administrations attested that pop cap 60 server cap 70 produced good results and raising the observer cap to 80 made it worse despite not increasing the active player count purely because it psychologically induced more pop chasing or something like that

[Timberpoes]

Ya. Let's stop fucking around with what worked before and just do what worked before, puh-fucking-lease.

No dipshit job cap nonsense. No fanciful and exotic ways to fuck up the very simple concept of deciding how many is enough.

Just 60/70 for Christ's sake and then we can stop hearing about it.

[britgrenadier1]

No to the job cap yes to the pop cap.

[orchidfox]

popcap is a bad idea without an actual place for overflow to go that isn't an lrp server nobody wants to play on

[TheLoLSwat]

Good idea and we can finally start seeing some overflow onto GLORIOUS & GOATED sybil with a 55-60 popcap

Assistant job cap isn’t the best idea but as long as it’s more than 10 I believe it’s manageable

[Scriptis]

make sybil mrp overflow

[RaveRadbury]

Observer cap 100 won't go well.

60/70

[TheBibleMelts]

reason I'd like a higher observer cap is to have access to more ghosts for events and other roles. extra crew can also be brought in via recovered crew members.

[TheRex9001]

As of right now we have placed a 60(70) popcap on Manuel.

[TheRex9001]

For transparency I've reopened the thread for feedback on the popcap

[RedBaronFlyer]

oh cool I look forward to not being able to play because of sybil popchasers

I will say it might just work, so I'll be somewhat optimistic.

[bastardblaster]

the whole reason why pops been hitting above 60 in the first place is people from monke that are just pop chasing + their server is getting ddosed, so if you cap manuel, then manuellites wont be able to play on manuel because its full, and Monke players dont know Sybil exists to go to it, so the monke players will all either just fill the server or go to another server with a higher popcap, accomplishing neither goal. plus wasnt the whole reason we had a popcap was to combat TDL which no longer exists, not Managing the Round

[Jacquerel]

plus wasnt the whole reason we had a popcap was to combat TDL which no longer exists, not Managing the Round

no the popcap was to maintain RP standards, as admin experience suggests that player interactions degrade when there are over a certain number of people online, which hasn't changed as a concern since it was first introduced

DDoS'es on Monke are ephemeral but "people get really weird when there's 80 of them packed in like sardines" is not going to stop being true

[TheRex9001]

the whole reason why pops been hitting above 60 in the first place is people from monke that are just pop chasing + their server is getting ddosed, so if you cap manuel, then manuellites wont be able to play on manuel because its full, and Monke players dont know Sybil exists to go to it, so the monke players will all either just fill the server or go to another server with a higher popcap, accomplishing neither goal. plus wasnt the whole reason we had a popcap was to combat TDL which no longer exists, not Managing the Round

When the cap is reached the connection message gives a link to Sybil suggesting you go there. As I said in a different policy thread we were keeping an eye open for if Manuel would need capping, and I think the pop recently (even if it’s partially ddos) is at that point.

[Jamarkus]

oh cool I look forward to not being able to play because of sybil popchasers

I will say it might just work, so I'll be somewhat optimistic.

ill play on sybil and you will play on sybil with me and we will RP on sybil and then leave after sybil players go out of their way to come back to stop the MRP and the cycle is complete.

OKTHANKUHAHABYE!!!

[RaveRadbury]

popchasers

What level of pop warrants chasing? Is it a hard number or is it just whatever's biggest on the homepage at a given time?

[RedBaronFlyer]

popchasers

What level of pop warrants chasing? Is it a hard number or is it just whatever's biggest on the homepage at a given time?

what is high pop?

what is mid pop?

what is low pop?

what is high RP?

what is medium RP?

what is low RP?

FOR A BOWL IS MOST USEFUL WHEN IT IS EMPTY

my balls itch

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[TheFinalPotato]

popcap is a bad idea without an actual place for overflow to go that isn't an lrp server nobody wants to play on

I want to play on sybil

[Metek]

You shouldn't throw a wrench in one of the only 2 servers that's alive.

I'm personally a believer in equal amounts of carrot, stick, and fence for encouraging behavior. I find the administration and development perspectives to lean much too heavily into stick and fence for guiding behavior. It makes changes that ostensibly aim to promote server and community health often feel punitive instead.

I'm one of the people who will just go do some other hobby or chore instead of play on the LRP servers most of the time. Getting roundstart necksnapped by a changeling chef and being told to suck it up in the adminhelp permanently soured me on the LRP rules.

[RaveRadbury]

popchasers

What level of pop warrants chasing? Is it a hard number or is it just whatever's biggest on the homepage at a given time?

what is high pop?

what is mid pop?

what is low pop?

what is high RP?

what is medium RP?

what is low RP?

FOR A BOWL IS MOST USEFUL WHEN IT IS EMPTY

my balls itch

I was sincerely asking for your opinion.

[bingusdingus]

XRP(Xemo RP)
The rules are whatever TBM says.

Also popchasing is a cope. Nobody likes playing on a server with less people when they have the option to play on a server with more. It's something that literally everyone does with every online game ever when you have access to a server browser.

Have you ever booted up TF2 and gone "Ahhh yes, a 8/24 server, exactly what I wanted."

[TheBibleMelts]

XRP(Xemo RP)
The rules are whatever TBM says.

lets do it, give me basil

[RedBaronFlyer]

I was sincerely asking for your opinion.

Admittedly it's whatever. Bingus put it best, really. Someone who would play Sybil if Sybil had 60 players or whatever is obviously going to play on Manuel for a similar-ish experience as opposed to playing on Sybil with 5 people. sub 25-30 pop ss13 kinda sucks because nothing is really built for it at this point. It's similar to how SS13 starts breaking down after 80-ish people because medbay isn't big enough, miners can't mine enough materials, and security can't keep the crew + antags + 20-30 assistants all in line. It's like playing a TF2 match with 6 people on it instead of the same-ish server running the same maps but it has 23/31 players on it.

I'ma be real I was mostly complaining to complain, sorry.

[RaveRadbury]

Admittedly it's whatever. Bingus put it best, really. Someone who would play Sybil if Sybil had 60 players or whatever is obviously going to play on Manuel for a similar-ish experience as opposed to playing on Sybil with 5 people. sub 25-30 pop ss13 kinda sucks because nothing is really built for it at this point. It's similar to how SS13 starts breaking down after 80-ish people because medbay isn't big enough, miners can't mine enough materials, and security can't keep the crew + antags + 20-30 assistants all in line. It's like playing a TF2 match with 6 people on it instead of the same-ish server running the same maps but it has 23/31 players on it.

I'ma be real I was mostly complaining to complain, sorry.

Yeah, nw. When I saw my words in the quote I was like "dang, i was vague"

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think that pop below 25-30 is a decent boundary to consider especially if coordinated seeding is ever to be considered again. In all the time I've seen it come up I don't think I've seen that practicality factored in.

You've also got 80 as an upper limit, is that a general trend or MRP specifically? I've also seen issues with medbay at highpop, a lot of stepping on toes with equipment and thinking the other person is being intentional about it. There are a handful of resource bottlenecks I wonder how much discussion's been had about them as a category. Might be interesting to map out.

I've heard arguments against lowpop maps for a while and it makes me wonder if someone made a lowpop map with the intention of it being lowpop and intentionally kept it simple so that it would be easy to maintain and update, would that be merged? For someone specifically to say "this is meant for under 30 but can be built out on if pop rises".

Also popchasing is a cope. Nobody likes playing on a server with less people when they have the option to play on a server with more. It's something that literally everyone does with every online game ever when you have access to a server browser.

Have you ever booted up TF2 and gone "Ahhh yes, a 8/24 server, exactly what I wanted."

Yes, and we have a couple examples of it in /tg/station history. We've had multiple low-pop servers that build their own communities. Also back when it was just Bagil, Sybil, and Terry there would always be a smaller pop on one of the two US LRP servers. Some people prefer smaller pop because it actually does filter out people who make decisions based off of population. You cannot assert that "everyone chooses pop", its evidently false.

[bingusdingus]

Yes, and we have a couple examples of it in /tg/station history. We've had multiple low-pop servers that build their own communities. Also back when it was just Bagil, Sybil, and Terry there would always be a smaller pop on one of the two US LRP servers. Some people prefer smaller pop because it actually does filter out people who make decisions based off of population. You cannot assert that "everyone chooses pop", its evidently false.

This is what you sound like
"Acktchually *pushes up glases* those 4 people on Sybil LIKE it. So you good sir, are in fact a-wrong."

MOST people prefer pop. Is that better your pedanticness? or do you just reply to people because the little red number by the bell makes the happy hormones go brr and you just say whatever inane contrarian bullshit that you can think of in a way to make yourself look much smarter than you actually are and insert yourself into the conversation. Just because my use of the word "literally" was not accurate, doesn't make my assessment any less true and you fucking know it. Your reply doesn't contribute anything other than to split hairs in a way to tell me I'm wrong. Don't post if you can't manage any thought other than the opposite of what other people are posting.

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[RaveRadbury]

words

The whole point is that some people will do lowpop and some people will chase and there's a balance somewhere, like a cap, that could de-incentivize chasing. I know you've got like a whole angry burnout arc going but really man, you came into a conversation wrong and now you're mad that you have to articulate, in policy discussion. (EDIT: to clarify, the following sentences are 100% sincere) Are you having fun? I hope so.

[dendydoom]

what if we had a highpop version of meta with like giga resources then on one day a week like a friday or saturday we had a capless evening where we all agree that yeah things will be more hectic but it's only for a single evening so we can enjoy having a fatass crew without getting angry because it's not the norm sometimes having that many people is fun and some events can encourage great rp while being better the more people you have available to fill roles. what's annoying about 90 crew rounds is that it has swept away the sweet spot even if there are fun things about it because it has become the daily norm in the evening. this way we could have our cake and eat it too......... delicious...
.

[TheBibleMelts]

several days of hitting the cap now and i feel like we're just restricting our regulars from even joining to shoot the shit in dchat or OOC or join as ghost roles due to the observer cap implemented.

[RaveRadbury]

I talked with TBM about this more. Raising the observer cap didn't work well when I tried it years ago, but things might have changed enough that it could go over better now.

I think that until we have another server that is continuously higher in population than Manuel that it will be a magnet for popchasing.

Unironically the best solution at this point would be to create a Manuel 2 and give one of the two servers a higher popcap. As players are bothered by popchasers they can switch over to the lower cap server and have a good time.

When bagil and sybil were in full swing you could always leave to the other server if you weren't getting the experience you were looking for. Expecting Campbell to be a good MRP 2 was not a good idea and I don't consider it valid. Manuel has never had a viable alternative to switch to, and that might be worth trying as well.

[Jamarkus]

XRP(Xemo RP)
The rules are whatever TBM says.

lets do it, give me basil

Im not gonna lie, this actually sounds very desirable just because I want to see what would happen. its not like sybil is being used for anything at the moment, plus we dont actually have any event servers at this moment.

Why not turn sybil into an experimental server to try out new things? like specific admin ruling changes run by an admin so we have a test to see how it functions, or a server that runs a specific map (robustia) so that players that want to try it out can go there. let it be the experiment server for a bit, till people come for the appeal of something different.

[RaveRadbury]

sybil

I don't get why we have to re-use names for different projects, it kinda screws with the memory of the server and some people don't appreciate that kind of thing.

[oranges]

so far all the evidence i've seen is that people are just waiting and hoping for a slot rather than joining a low pop server.

[Jamarkus]

SYBIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

I don't get why we have to re-use names for different projects, it kinda screws with the memory of the server and some people don't appreciate that kind of thing.

Im saying use the SYBIL server. we can always change the name. unless you want to make a brand new server and keep sybil around for it. We need another "event hall" type of server for the more interesting things. like isostation. Besides. even though im a day 1 there at its birth manny player, im not opposed to blowing it up entirely and just having the two LRP servers till we get back to rolling.

Plus it could save cash that we are spending keeping the servers running.

[RaveRadbury]

Im saying use the SYBIL server. we can always change the name. unless you want to make a brand new server and keep sybil around for it. We need another "event hall" type of server for the more interesting things. like isostation. Besides. even though im a day 1 there at its birth manny player, im not opposed to blowing it up entirely and just having the two LRP servers till we get back to rolling.

So I'm not super up on our server structure but I know that sybil and manuel are on the same box. one box can host multiple servers, so there's not too much limit with regard to servers. I've heard talk about "effortlessly spinning up" servers for a minute. We haven't engaged that line of thinking much since the previous host was so firm about Campbell.

So not much limits your fantasy server team.

[Jamarkus]

Ill eat my words rave. just this one time.

[RaveRadbury]

Ill eat my words rave. just this one time.

I think your isostation event hall idea is great, fr sky's the limit, man.

[dendydoom]

so far all the evidence i've seen is that people are just waiting and hoping for a slot rather than joining a low pop server.

yup, and i don't think this was ever in question from the decision makers. at one point the cap was left off because the most important factor was maintaining a high player count. but this term have decided that trying to curate a better more consistent experience for the players that do connect is more important than max possible players. it's true that rounds become faster paced and harder to keep track of with more people - i would not necessarily call that "bad rp" but it makes certain types of rp much more difficult because you are constantly interrupted by new stimuli. as well as the struggle for limited resources etc etc. i would definitely say it's more "intense" which the higher end of roleplayers tend to not like.

"popchasers" has negative connotations but people also play because of their friends. this is why im there. even if terry is packed and id get better ping there, i would rather play manuel because that's my community and where my friends play. so imo it's not just about playercount (even though that is a big part of it) but sybil doesn't really have an identity or focus anymore. transition of lrp players to mrp has definitely shown that people are willing to endure a stricter ruleset, and the process of manuel has never been to filter or exclude. its varied tapestry of player types has always been its strength. proximity of lower ability roleplayers rubbing shoulders with higher ability ones and generally ending up somewhere in the middle because it turns out RP is not as cringe as some may think. this process has been a part of manuel as long as ive been around, it's just become more noticeable for a while because of the sudden influx of players rather than a slow trickle over time.

is this process made easier or worse by a high player count? from what ive seen with limited data it's worse. but idk. maybe there is a middle ground. I think my proposal a few posts up has merit...

[RaveRadbury]

yup, and i don't think this was ever in question from the decision makers. at one point the cap was left off because the most important factor was maintaining a high player count. but this term have decided that trying to curate a better more consistent experience for the players that do connect is more important than max possible players. it's true that rounds become faster paced and harder to keep track of with more people - i would not necessarily call that "bad rp" but it makes certain types of rp much more difficult because you are constantly interrupted by new stimuli. as well as the struggle for limited resources etc etc. i would definitely say it's more "intense" which the higher end of roleplayers tend to not like.

I was talking with Burger about this and he said something similar. Basically, higher popcount is faster-paced and lower popcount isn't. Some people prefer the faster pace and some people prefer the slower pace. Neither form of RP is better than the other, it's just a matter of taste and mood.

"popchasers" has negative connotations but people also play because of their friends. this is why im there. even if terry is packed and id get better ping there, i would rather play manuel because that's my community and where my friends play. so imo it's not just about playercount (even though that is a big part of it) but sybil doesn't really have an identity or focus anymore... ...this process has been a part of manuel as long as ive been around, it's just become more noticeable for a while because of the sudden influx of players rather than a slow trickle over time.

I don't find popchasing inherently negative, especially with above points about pacing and pop enjoyment ultimately being matters of taste. It certainly isn't murderboning.

In all the time Manuel has existed there's never been an equal alternative server to switch off to. Campbell was not the same as the AUS player shadow govt could not easily access it and we've got some heart and soul players down there.

[Cobby]

Mechanically higher pop = more people moving around = less places to hide and do covert actions because you always have someone on your shoulder unless you yourself "curate" (murder) that pop. For MRP this is rough because you understand by doing that you will get people and even admins thinking that you could have just waited indefinitely urgo youre short of murderboning and slap you for it, or at the very least now have to spend 5+ minutes explaining why you killed someone (at least thats the thought).

Its not like a hard thought experiment to come to the conclusion its literally the nature of the ship having a set amount of area, an even smaller amount of area for covert activities, and more people that have opportunity and means to pass by the areas for covert activities.

I think we have servers dedicated for higher pop and the consequently lower RP that comes from it. If you are so chained to a particular server on a community which has various servers that are tailored to the experience you want, that you simply refuse the mere idea of having your friends go on the other server for that different playstyle temporarily, I find that more problematic than people who have zero server loyalty and just follow the pop to chase those higher player rounds. Asking people who specifically play here for a particular playstyle to just either play high pop slop to appease your particular needs or not play that day when we specifically have servers for that style of play is unfair to them and a bit entitled for the people who want that.

I think there is no sweet spot here unless you start soft reserving slots for people who are "regulars" vs. "tourists". Either the pop is high enough that friends can easily join which in turn causes "less RP", or you accept that if you arent getting in early enough you may not have enough slots in the server. I think its pretty unrealistic to expect the regulars to just go to any secondary server especially one that advertises itself as a different experience to manuel (LRP), and I dont think there is any compromise here that appeases everyone so you should stick to the original goal as your metric of success. No one is going to want to go on manuel 2 when manuel 1 exists, theyd rather wait for a slot than play barebones station.

[RaveRadbury]

I think we have servers dedicated for higher pop and the consequently lower RP that comes from it.

Not with the MRP ruleset. There is only one server with an MRP ruleset right now, and there have never been two US MRP servers.

[Cobby]

I think we have servers dedicated for higher pop and the consequently lower RP that comes from it.

Not with the MRP ruleset. There is only one server with an MRP ruleset right now, and there have never been two US MRP servers.

I think high pop and a roleplay environment come at odds though, hence why I say we have servers already dedicated to a high pop experience through our LRP servers. If you slapped the MRP rulelist on sybil right now I dont think youd see a huge turnaround suddenly even if Manuel was filled to the brim, and frankly I think any configuration for the server, unless your overflow server is a server that acts standalone rather than specifically an overflow server, is pointless. Most people do not want to play a barebones round in hopes it will lead to a populated server (aka popchasing) and the idea that a lot of people are only on in the interim until a slot opens up on the "main" server will just mean people wont bother playing at all

The current pop right now in totality tells you people are not chomping at the bits to play ss13.

[RaveRadbury]

I think high pop and a roleplay environment come at odds though, hence why I say we have servers already dedicated to a high pop experience through our LRP servers. If you slapped the MRP rulelist on sybil right now I dont think youd see a huge turnaround suddenly even if Manuel was filled to the brim

I agree that it wouldn't create a huge turnaround but I think you're underestimating how much MRP players like the protections of the ruleset. People like having protections against murderbone, they opt-in to a larger ruleset. That doesn't go away with highpop.

[iamgoofball]

i just want to be able to play the video game/observe my test merges and I can't goddamn log into the server when I get off work

[TheBibleMelts]

changing the observer cap to 100 to see how it goes is free to try. i don't see any reason not to push it so people can get on.

[Cobby]

I agree that it wouldn't create a huge turnaround but I think you're underestimating how much MRP players like the protections of the ruleset. People like having protections against murderbone, they opt-in to a larger ruleset. That doesn't go away with highpop.

Man if only we had that epiphany when manuel was being created

[RaveRadbury]

I agree that it wouldn't create a huge turnaround but I think you're underestimating how much MRP players like the protections of the ruleset. People like having protections against murderbone, they opt-in to a larger ruleset. That doesn't go away with highpop.

Man if only we had that epiphany when manuel was being created

We did? A lot of people wanted to see rule 4 muzzled. A lot of other people didn't.

If we had that epiphany in the way you are imagining how would it have gone differently?