BYOND account: Ispiria
Ban/note type Server perma
Ban/note duration: Perma
Ban/note reason: Byond won't connect at all now so I can't pull the specific reason given
Time ban was placed: See above
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: 252213
Why are you making this appeal? (Put an x in the boxes): I believe there was a misunderstanding where my intent was believed to be far more malicious and targeted than it was.
() - The ban/note is factually incorrect
() - The ban/note is not against the rules
() - The ban/note needs modification
(X) - The ban was unjustifiably harsh
(X) - I was permabanned and I want another chance
Why should this appeal be accepted?: Hi! So basically, I got ran over by the tram while in the middle of a very involved construction project that had already taken quite a while and was nearing completion. As soon as I woke up in medbay, I started malding a bit about the tram and said what were, to me at least, obviously rhetorical and hyperbolic comments about knowing the person who made the station and wanting to slice their neck open. My character is a widely known pacifist with a number of fragile quirks and I habitually make exaggerative threats of violence that I can't actually perform as kind of a playful juxtaposition.
It was then, however, raised to me as a concern that I might have meant this in an OOC way and was deliberately targeting the mapper/coder/admin/whoever designed Tram. I don't actually know who this person or persons was or is, and was playing off my character's fairly well known tendency to make friends with everybody they ever encounter, then using morbid overkill to describe my spite at having been crushed by the tram, which is why my comments were vaguely about 'having known who they were' rather than any specific names. I was then perma'd.
I recognize, in hindsight, how this could've been seen as an actual malicious threat made against the mappers of Tramstation, which I insisted in the ahelp as I insist here is not the case. I have a long history with tg and am in fact friendly with a number of admins both old and new, and have never and would never wish genuine harm upon any of them, especially over something as silly and well-known to be a deathtrap as the tram. I apologize for choosing language to describe my spiteful fury towards the tram which may have conveyed sincere negative emotion or ill intent, and will moderate my choice of phrasing in future to better disambiguate that my anger is more directed towards the fact that I got ran over rather than towards the person behind building the tram in the first place.
Tangentially related, but during the ahelp it sounded almost as though Maxipat had taken my comments personally, and if they were in fact one of the people involved in Tramstation's development, I'd like to sincerely apologize to them specifically for my poorly chosen and aggressive phrasing. I don't hate or even dislike you or Tram, and would absolutely never wish any actual harm upon you or anyone else for any reason, let alone for designing a map in spacegame. My words were born of brief in-character frustration at my construction project having been delayed further when it was so near to completion, and I'm sorry for saying them in such a way as to appear like a personal malicious attack. I won't speak so aggressively again.
Thanks for reading!
[Maxipat] Ispiria - Permatrammed
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Ispiria
- Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:25 pm
- Byond Username: Ispiria
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Thunder11
- In-Game Admin
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:55 pm
- Byond Username: Thunder12345
- Github Username: Thunder12345
- Location: Scotland, UK
Re: [Maxipat] Ispiria - Permatrammed
R1 - wished death to tramstation's creator after being hit by a tram. "Tramstation is repugnant and I wish a swift death upon the person who designed it" "I know who made it, too" "I was personally friends with them" "I want to slice their neck wide open". We take death threats REALLY seriously.
Spoiler:
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Maxipat
- Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:02 pm
- Byond Username: Maxipat
Re: [Maxipat] Ispiria - Permatrammed
Hi! Thanks for appealing. I do appreciate you're apologizing.
I'll first put out the ban reason and the relevant logs:
Ban reason:
Relevant logs (cut to only the issue part)
Bluntly, how do i verify that you really didn't mean the person OOC. You went on talking about how you know them and how you two were friends (which i did consult adminbus on whether its only me who reads it as ooc targetted), then say completely otherwise in here and the ticket. You not explicitly namedropping is irrelevant here, since you did name it as "person who made tramstation", not who "made the tram", if it was the latter i could not read it in any other way than some centcomm entity that designed the tram itself, but it does seem damning, on top of painfully detailed description on what you would do to them.
We deal with a lot of hate towards mappers, both oocly and icly, to the point entire mapping team is discouraged from creating more content for us. And we dont tolerate death threats, historically this can be proven during "terry funeral incident" where several people ate a ban for telling an admin to off themselves. I'll list some of the ban reasons from then:
They all ate an immediate permaban, two people (one not listed here) didn't explicitly name any person, just "centcomm". How do i know this is not the case here?
I do again appreciate apologizing, i'll keep it in mind.
P.S
I'll first put out the ban reason and the relevant logs:
Ban reason:
Ticket:R1 - wished death to tramstation's creator after being hit by a tram. "Tramstation is repugnant and I wish a swift death upon the person who designed it" "I know who made it, too" "I was personally friends with them" "I want to slice their neck wide open". We take death threats REALLY seriously.
► Show Spoiler
► Show Spoiler
We deal with a lot of hate towards mappers, both oocly and icly, to the point entire mapping team is discouraged from creating more content for us. And we dont tolerate death threats, historically this can be proven during "terry funeral incident" where several people ate a ban for telling an admin to off themselves. I'll list some of the ban reasons from then:
► Show Spoiler
I do again appreciate apologizing, i'll keep it in mind.
P.S
I was not involved in mapping for tg ever (for now).Ispiria wrote: ↑Wed May 14, 2025 9:15 pm Tangentially related, but during the ahelp it sounded almost as though Maxipat had taken my comments personally, and if they were in fact one of the people involved in Tramstation's development, I'd like to sincerely apologize to them specifically for my poorly chosen and aggressive phrasing. I don't hate or even dislike you or Tram, and would absolutely never wish any actual harm upon you or anyone else for any reason, let alone for designing a map in spacegame.
This is a preventative Forum User message to try and stop a perceived issue escalating before it ever really starts, and does not prevent the headmins from taking a different opinion and deleting my post. No formal action is being taken. No reply to this post is necessary. If you want to discuss the matter further, use forum PMs with me, but I have nothing else to say so I wouldn't waste the time.
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Ispiria
- Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:25 pm
- Byond Username: Ispiria
Re: [Maxipat] Ispiria - Permatrammed
I suppose, in complete honesty, you can't know that I didn't mean any specific OOC individuals with my raving, because all you'll ever really have to go on is my word and my history. I understand the need to take things like this extremely seriously, and had I actually meant anything line-crossing with what I said I'd probably be pretty ashamed of myself and not bother to appeal at all.
As it stands, however, it was solely the circumstances of the round and a bit of in-character venting, after which I went right back to doing what I had been with no lingering or further griping. I was laid up in medbay for a few minutes with a couple broken bones and ranted a little bit to pass the time in a manner that I thought was comically overkill, but there was no serious malice in any of it, which my tone both in the ahelp and here, I'm satisfied to say, does a reasonable job conveying.
I've been out of touch with tg for a few years and wasn't quite aware the level of vitriol mappers have been made to deal with, since I'm not involved in that part of the community at all, and I apologize again for having even inadvertently contributed to it. I can see how my words could easily be interpreted as targeted but assure you that wasn't the case, and I won't speak like that again going forward.
As it stands, however, it was solely the circumstances of the round and a bit of in-character venting, after which I went right back to doing what I had been with no lingering or further griping. I was laid up in medbay for a few minutes with a couple broken bones and ranted a little bit to pass the time in a manner that I thought was comically overkill, but there was no serious malice in any of it, which my tone both in the ahelp and here, I'm satisfied to say, does a reasonable job conveying.
I've been out of touch with tg for a few years and wasn't quite aware the level of vitriol mappers have been made to deal with, since I'm not involved in that part of the community at all, and I apologize again for having even inadvertently contributed to it. I can see how my words could easily be interpreted as targeted but assure you that wasn't the case, and I won't speak like that again going forward.
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Ispiria
- Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:25 pm
- Byond Username: Ispiria
Re: [Maxipat] Ispiria - Permatrammed
► Show Spoiler
I can see why it might be easy to point to examples of linecrossing behavior and ask how you could know that mine is different, but it's important not to overlook what differences actually exist, and not to conflate the two when judging my intent.
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Maxipat
- Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:02 pm
- Byond Username: Maxipat
Re: [Maxipat] Ispiria - Permatrammed
Okay so, i've slept on it, thought about it a bit more, asked around for some stuff and came to a conclusion.
I am not entirely convinced you actually didn't mean it towards tramstation's creator, testimonies from peanut seem to have a common pattern of you blending or breaking the ic/ooc barrier when you're upset or mad at something, which would also apply here. We also have you going at Sonnzer in manuelcord just because he was mean to you (or your friend? not sure) in-game as a character, to the point he made a remark that he feels "uninvited" to the server if he doesn't join whatever rp gimmick you're hosting in a round. We also have a very low severity remark of you disliking tram in the past:
.
I also couldn't find any proof of you acting in a way you described
While you'd be right that the context of terry funeral is wildly different (a basically ooc event vs you throwing remarks into medbay's void), the similarity still is there, as some people banned never named the particular ckey or person, just the centcomm entity, like here, here or here.
Basically all signs and patterns of behavior convince me that in fact this was an outburts of irritation targetted at tramstation's creator, 2nd chances are, however, free.
I am going to be willing to lower the ban to 1 month from the moment it was placed. You can always ask for a headmin review if you disagree with it.
We take death threats awfully seriously, we note people for those even if they're excessive while obviously IC. I do appreciate you apologized, but the person who you should apologize to is tramstation's creator not me, I doubt they'd be very happy with such remarks especially when we had people sending death threats to creators of less liked maps. Please, if you're going to have violent outbursts at least make them worded in a way that they can undoubtedly not be treated as anything else than IC.
E: formatting
I am not entirely convinced you actually didn't mean it towards tramstation's creator, testimonies from peanut seem to have a common pattern of you blending or breaking the ic/ooc barrier when you're upset or mad at something, which would also apply here. We also have you going at Sonnzer in manuelcord just because he was mean to you (or your friend? not sure) in-game as a character, to the point he made a remark that he feels "uninvited" to the server if he doesn't join whatever rp gimmick you're hosting in a round. We also have a very low severity remark of you disliking tram in the past:
. I also couldn't find any proof of you acting in a way you described
we had an admin go through all of your game logs from 1st to the 9th of May and they couldn't find anything close to it.
While you'd be right that the context of terry funeral is wildly different (a basically ooc event vs you throwing remarks into medbay's void), the similarity still is there, as some people banned never named the particular ckey or person, just the centcomm entity, like here, here or here.
Basically all signs and patterns of behavior convince me that in fact this was an outburts of irritation targetted at tramstation's creator, 2nd chances are, however, free.
I am going to be willing to lower the ban to 1 month from the moment it was placed. You can always ask for a headmin review if you disagree with it.
We take death threats awfully seriously, we note people for those even if they're excessive while obviously IC. I do appreciate you apologized, but the person who you should apologize to is tramstation's creator not me, I doubt they'd be very happy with such remarks especially when we had people sending death threats to creators of less liked maps. Please, if you're going to have violent outbursts at least make them worded in a way that they can undoubtedly not be treated as anything else than IC.
E: formatting
This is a preventative Forum User message to try and stop a perceived issue escalating before it ever really starts, and does not prevent the headmins from taking a different opinion and deleting my post. No formal action is being taken. No reply to this post is necessary. If you want to discuss the matter further, use forum PMs with me, but I have nothing else to say so I wouldn't waste the time.
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Ispiria
- Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:25 pm
- Byond Username: Ispiria
Re: [Maxipat] Ispiria - Permatrammed
I wasn't aware that peanuts were to be considered when dealing with a person's ban because of the ease with which a metaclique can organize to spout off rhetoric against a person they dislike. To wit, you'll notice that the most vocal members of said peanut thread were also the same three people with whom I had a discord dispute some time ago which you yourself cite later in your post. I'm not accusing anyone of targeted grudging, but if anecdotal evidence from parties uninvolved in the banning incident are now to be considered viable testimony then I suppose that's something everyone looking to appeal a ban in the future ought to be aware of, and try not to ever do anything at all that might upset another person in case they decide to rally against you in the peanut thread and turn admin opinion against you.
I did a bit of searching myself and couldn't find Sonnzer saying anything to the effect that you say they did, though an unrelated third party who wasn't present in the round in question (but was certainly present in the peanut thread) said they felt uninvited, absent any context outside of the discord discussion itself. They say they felt uninvited but you'll notice that I was the one who left the discord for some time following this conversation, stating nearly verbatim that I felt I was unallowed to disagree with them. During the same argument it was made clear that I wasn't a party to the in-game incident being discussed, but rather heard it over radio, and found the way Sonnzer composed themselves distasteful, so... trying to say this is somehow me demanding people "join rp gimmicks I'm hosting" is wildly off the mark. I will add that everybody I ever play with is invited to every gimmick I ever host, and nobody has ever been shamed or berated for not doing so.
As for the 'low severity remark' - your example is me discussing Tram's design in terms of how the length of the station and the tramway itself prevents rapid response during crises. If this is being used as evidence that I dislike Tram then.. like, that's one lengthy reach, but I guess I can't argue with it.
If you can't find any comments from my character to the effect of all-caps shouting threats at a friend of mine, then I'd have to say something has been overlooked, because I do this very frequently. It'd be kind of an odd thing to just make up in some attempt to defend myself. If you couldn't find me saying something like "Hey X come with me to the bathroom", which I believe happened less than two or three days ago, may or may not be in all caps, and is a reference to the multiple ways I know to inflict damage on someone in the bathroom as a pacifist, then you're just looking for the wrong things.
Now to address the actual content of my comments directly. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that I was speaking fully from the heart in my literally half dozen lines, that I did or do in fact know the creator of Tram (I don't), that they are or were in fact my friend (they may have been if I knew them without realizing it), and that.. well, I won't even entertain the idea that I'd wish real harm on them, because that's ridiculous and if I seriously meant that then forget permabanned, I ought to be in jail. In this hypothetical scenario where the rest of it was earnestly meant, we have a situation where I am threatening someone I consider to be my friend with ridiculous over the top violence and specifically an in-game combat option because.. I got run over by the tram. If anyone can tell me they've never threatened a friend of theirs with in-character violence following a stupid in-game incident, I'd have to say that person is either lying, boring, or doesn't have a very strong friendship. Keep in mind this is the worst case scenario where everything I said was based in OOC truth, which I insist again that it was not.
Additionally because I also had time to think on it, I'm going to have to point to the minor but significant detail in my phrasing. I did not say "I am going to slice their neck wide open". I did not say "Someone ought to slice their neck wide open". I said "I want to slice their neck wide open". This is petty mald and in-character frustration, plain and simple - it is not making a threat of any planned or remotely feasible action, nor is it the genuine wishing of ill intent upon another person. It could be argued that "I wish a swift death upon the person who designed it" is, as the words literally say, wishing harm on them... but then I'd argue that the archaic words chosen, "I wish a swift death upon" rather than "I wish they died" communicates that it was meant as an over the top joke rather than anything viciously intended. Which is in fact the case, and I say that as the one who chose to phrase it the way I did. It was playful banter, not a malicious invocation. Calling it a death threat with any tangible merit worthy of a lengthy ban is, honestly, laughable.
I'd like to ask who was in any way hurt by my broken-body-in-medbay comments, how my half-dozen lines of dramatic anger negatively affected the game or anyone's round in any discernable way, and how the words of people who I have had disagreements with before as evidenced by your own use of that very disagreement is to be counted as reliable testimony against me. If none of what I've said here has in any way swayed you or helped you to realize that this ban is entirely inappropriate, then yes, I do request headmin review. This feels like enforcement of the rule of law rather than the spirit, and done against a person who (I'd like to think) has been an active and ongoing benefit to the community and game as a whole. A horrible misfire, in other words.
I did a bit of searching myself and couldn't find Sonnzer saying anything to the effect that you say they did, though an unrelated third party who wasn't present in the round in question (but was certainly present in the peanut thread) said they felt uninvited, absent any context outside of the discord discussion itself. They say they felt uninvited but you'll notice that I was the one who left the discord for some time following this conversation, stating nearly verbatim that I felt I was unallowed to disagree with them. During the same argument it was made clear that I wasn't a party to the in-game incident being discussed, but rather heard it over radio, and found the way Sonnzer composed themselves distasteful, so... trying to say this is somehow me demanding people "join rp gimmicks I'm hosting" is wildly off the mark. I will add that everybody I ever play with is invited to every gimmick I ever host, and nobody has ever been shamed or berated for not doing so.
As for the 'low severity remark' - your example is me discussing Tram's design in terms of how the length of the station and the tramway itself prevents rapid response during crises. If this is being used as evidence that I dislike Tram then.. like, that's one lengthy reach, but I guess I can't argue with it.
If you can't find any comments from my character to the effect of all-caps shouting threats at a friend of mine, then I'd have to say something has been overlooked, because I do this very frequently. It'd be kind of an odd thing to just make up in some attempt to defend myself. If you couldn't find me saying something like "Hey X come with me to the bathroom", which I believe happened less than two or three days ago, may or may not be in all caps, and is a reference to the multiple ways I know to inflict damage on someone in the bathroom as a pacifist, then you're just looking for the wrong things.
Now to address the actual content of my comments directly. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that I was speaking fully from the heart in my literally half dozen lines, that I did or do in fact know the creator of Tram (I don't), that they are or were in fact my friend (they may have been if I knew them without realizing it), and that.. well, I won't even entertain the idea that I'd wish real harm on them, because that's ridiculous and if I seriously meant that then forget permabanned, I ought to be in jail. In this hypothetical scenario where the rest of it was earnestly meant, we have a situation where I am threatening someone I consider to be my friend with ridiculous over the top violence and specifically an in-game combat option because.. I got run over by the tram. If anyone can tell me they've never threatened a friend of theirs with in-character violence following a stupid in-game incident, I'd have to say that person is either lying, boring, or doesn't have a very strong friendship. Keep in mind this is the worst case scenario where everything I said was based in OOC truth, which I insist again that it was not.
Additionally because I also had time to think on it, I'm going to have to point to the minor but significant detail in my phrasing. I did not say "I am going to slice their neck wide open". I did not say "Someone ought to slice their neck wide open". I said "I want to slice their neck wide open". This is petty mald and in-character frustration, plain and simple - it is not making a threat of any planned or remotely feasible action, nor is it the genuine wishing of ill intent upon another person. It could be argued that "I wish a swift death upon the person who designed it" is, as the words literally say, wishing harm on them... but then I'd argue that the archaic words chosen, "I wish a swift death upon" rather than "I wish they died" communicates that it was meant as an over the top joke rather than anything viciously intended. Which is in fact the case, and I say that as the one who chose to phrase it the way I did. It was playful banter, not a malicious invocation. Calling it a death threat with any tangible merit worthy of a lengthy ban is, honestly, laughable.
I'd like to ask who was in any way hurt by my broken-body-in-medbay comments, how my half-dozen lines of dramatic anger negatively affected the game or anyone's round in any discernable way, and how the words of people who I have had disagreements with before as evidenced by your own use of that very disagreement is to be counted as reliable testimony against me. If none of what I've said here has in any way swayed you or helped you to realize that this ban is entirely inappropriate, then yes, I do request headmin review. This feels like enforcement of the rule of law rather than the spirit, and done against a person who (I'd like to think) has been an active and ongoing benefit to the community and game as a whole. A horrible misfire, in other words.
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Maxipat
- Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:02 pm
- Byond Username: Maxipat
Re: [Maxipat] Ispiria - Permatrammed
Headmins were notified
This is a preventative Forum User message to try and stop a perceived issue escalating before it ever really starts, and does not prevent the headmins from taking a different opinion and deleting my post. No formal action is being taken. No reply to this post is necessary. If you want to discuss the matter further, use forum PMs with me, but I have nothing else to say so I wouldn't waste the time.
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Sonnzer
- Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:52 pm
- Byond Username: Sonnzer
- Location: Aft Maintenance
Re: [Maxipat] Ispiria - Permatrammed
Hi, I was mentioned in this appeal by Maxipat so I feel it's relevant if I share thoughts. If it's a bit peanutty, then it's alright if you delete it, but I think it's best if I write a few things down.
In regards to the little Discord spat mentioned, it came from a shift where I had made some snide (and ultimately) harmless remarks in regards to another player, who I assume is Inspirias friend. The snide remarks are basically equivalent to calling someone melodramatic for having some sort of emotional scene in the hallways. Since it's in the hallways, I observe and make my little remark about grabbing popcorn for the soap opera. Of course, I'm met with backlash ICly (justifiably), and it ends up with me being shot on the shuttle a while later by the person I annoyed. After the round, you went on to describe the way I acted as "low tier play", where I (admittedly) snark you slightly with a bit of sarcasm in response. You say that it isn't cool to "slide into an hourlong shift where four people have been playing together and then start making fun of them for rping" (sic), and I respond generally by telling you that it amounted to playground bickering, and was entirely IC. There's some back and forth, some people join in (I assume when you talk about people """rallying against you""" you're referring to Jamarkus and MatrixOne, who were the ones also in the above discord discussion) and basically say you're wrong. You even admit to not being there when the situation happened, only hearing it through the radio.
In regards to you leaving, you had stated you would stop talking if everyone was in agreement I was right and you were wrong. I told you plainly that it's not about right vs wrong, and that it's alright to disagree with me. You then say that you feel it isn't. At that point, I try to reassure you, stating there's plenty people that I disagree with, and it's normal to sometimes not get along. And it is. I also said that it's a thing about trying to seperate the character from the player.
I'm really sorry that you don't see eye to eye with me. Sometimes, disagreements are inevitable, but I feel that you're not representing the situation well here. We're not ""rallying against you"", and this isn't some sort of conspiracy to attack you.
That's all I'm really going to say any further on the matter, if you want to talk it out with me, I'm happy to do so.
In regards to the little Discord spat mentioned, it came from a shift where I had made some snide (and ultimately) harmless remarks in regards to another player, who I assume is Inspirias friend. The snide remarks are basically equivalent to calling someone melodramatic for having some sort of emotional scene in the hallways. Since it's in the hallways, I observe and make my little remark about grabbing popcorn for the soap opera. Of course, I'm met with backlash ICly (justifiably), and it ends up with me being shot on the shuttle a while later by the person I annoyed. After the round, you went on to describe the way I acted as "low tier play", where I (admittedly) snark you slightly with a bit of sarcasm in response. You say that it isn't cool to "slide into an hourlong shift where four people have been playing together and then start making fun of them for rping" (sic), and I respond generally by telling you that it amounted to playground bickering, and was entirely IC. There's some back and forth, some people join in (I assume when you talk about people """rallying against you""" you're referring to Jamarkus and MatrixOne, who were the ones also in the above discord discussion) and basically say you're wrong. You even admit to not being there when the situation happened, only hearing it through the radio.
In regards to you leaving, you had stated you would stop talking if everyone was in agreement I was right and you were wrong. I told you plainly that it's not about right vs wrong, and that it's alright to disagree with me. You then say that you feel it isn't. At that point, I try to reassure you, stating there's plenty people that I disagree with, and it's normal to sometimes not get along. And it is. I also said that it's a thing about trying to seperate the character from the player.
I'm really sorry that you don't see eye to eye with me. Sometimes, disagreements are inevitable, but I feel that you're not representing the situation well here. We're not ""rallying against you"", and this isn't some sort of conspiracy to attack you.
That's all I'm really going to say any further on the matter, if you want to talk it out with me, I'm happy to do so.
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iain0
- In-Game Head Admin
- Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:23 pm
- Byond Username: Iain0
Re: [Maxipat] Ispiria - Permatrammed
Hi there. I'm afraid at this time we will be denying this appeal.
The extract of speech very much reads as crossing contexts, and taking all into account we do not believe this can be easily passed off as a purely IC "joke". We are strongly against such sentiments being expressed against any members of this community (or anyone else really), yet alone those who give freely to try better this place, and this is one of those areas with little tollerance or permissiveness around ambiguity. Keep well away from any such comments that may seem like veiled threats towards real life people.
The extract of speech very much reads as crossing contexts, and taking all into account we do not believe this can be easily passed off as a purely IC "joke". We are strongly against such sentiments being expressed against any members of this community (or anyone else really), yet alone those who give freely to try better this place, and this is one of those areas with little tollerance or permissiveness around ambiguity. Keep well away from any such comments that may seem like veiled threats towards real life people.
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