Rave Radbury for Headmin

[RaveRadbury]

Normally, I lean into the politician LARP and fanfare, but this time, I’m cutting straight to the point. (Don’t worry, there’s still a meme at the end.)

EDIT: The polls are open, and this election has had an incredible vibe and turnout. I'm genuinely excited about where we're headed, so before diving in, let's start with something energetic to set the mood:

---

Hello, I’m Rave Radbury. I’ve been part of the /tg/station community for about five years. I’ve served as headmin twice, contributed to code, and was the one who pushed for streaming to be allowed.

In this upcoming term, I want to:

• Strengthen LRP and MRP by properly defining their identities and expectations. The “High/Medium/Low” labels don’t really serve us anymore, and I think we can reframe into better terms that protect the best of MRP and LRP.
• (If Rule 11 policy isn't settled) contribute towards developing a replacement of rule 11 that is based in common-sense filters and TOS compliance.
• Implement quirk bans in the database so people can get paxed or blinded as an additional step before perma. This adds another layer of correction without immediately resorting to game bans.
• Re-evaluate our statistical approach to community population and open up discussion on understanding "core" players who draw others in. Our current approach is missing key dynamics.
• Overhaul how we communicate expectations and community culture. The Wallening showed that players need better insight into coding processes and decision-making. With the right people on board, infographics would make key information accessible, digestible, and easily shared.
• Keep non-humans out of roundstart head roles.
• Move the community toward escapism and fun. We’re a game, and I want to make sure we act like it.

I’m pragmatic. I build out of chaos. I have fun with what I do.

I like hearing other opinions and reasoning. I take ownership of my mistakes. And I think this headmin term has the potential to be one of the most productive we’ve had in a while.

If you’re on board, I’d love your vote, buy-in, and engagement. I definitely can't do this alone, let’s do something with this energy.

Kept this thread light, if I left something out feel free to hype me up. I'm happy to elaborate further on anything in this post, I do love a good discussion.

Here's the meme, art by bytube!


Here's the ol' campaign button.

---

Striders has made the choice to endorse my work to get pop back, in turn I am endorsing him.

Rave ... I genuinely believe he's capable of getting us our pop back.

I am officially endorsing Striders, if you plan to vote Rave #1 please put Striders at #2

Striders - Signaled his buy-in on me fixing pop, and honestly buy-in is the most needed thing to give a chance to anything I do to try to improve things. This kind of energy from someone like Striders is powerful.

Striders has provided essential services to our streaming oversight, I've found this invaluable. Their merry attitude always lifts spirits and it hides a deep commitment to the community.
Sometimes it doesn't land with some people. To those I say: Striders is as responsible and thoughtful as any other highly-invested community member, they just prefer some lightness in their presentation.

Much like their spirit animal striders is an embodiment of wisdom and also goofy irl

---

Here's what other candidates have said about me during this election (be sure to click on the arrow in the quote to go to the original post for the full opinion! :3)

Rave: Cool dude, I might not always agree with Rave but I think that plays to our collective strengths, an argument with Rave is usually productive and can give me new perspective on a topic.

I think Rave cares quite a-lot about TG... I could work great with them. They often have takes that I agree with

Rave ... the only person that came to Terry's aid during the great 20 minute round in 2022? Old terryfolk will never forget their kindness upon us. From recent interactions, he has softened up from being headstrong. I do appreciate Rave... Rave has always been giving advice and keeping tabs on the team...

Rave: I think Rave has lots of good ideas and good feel of the game from admin side...

[MothNyan]

• Strengthen LRP and MRP by properly defining their identities and expectations. The “High/Medium/Low” labels don’t really serve us anymore, and I think we can reframe into better terms that protect the best of MRP and LRP.

thats a pretty nifty point, i wonder if we should rename the distinctions between the two server entirely? Something to match their cultures

I'm proposing manny will be Mothroach Roleplay
and terry and sybil can be uuuh ummm- Cool Gamer Server

[*]Keep non-humans out of roundstart head roles.

awww
what's your reasoning for this?

[Vekter]

As it was for the last few times they've ran, I'm putting my endorsement towards Rave. They've done an exceptional job in the past and I have a lot of respect for them in general. I think a vote for Rave is a vote for a more reasonable, enjoyable server for all.

[britgrenadier1]

What do you think about the current culture shift on Manuel? Would you try to adjust it with ban/rule updates?

What are your thoughts on rule 4 and LRP in general? Can you give an example of how you might strengthen LRP/MRP by properly defining their expectations?

When was the last time you played a full round of space station, and what did you do during it?

Why do you think the game would be better without non human command?

[Jamarkus]

Hi rave! I said id vote for you, but I want to see what everyone has to offer before I make a choice, so no promises!

Id like you to elaborate on what you mean by Quirk bans instead of Permabans. does this mean that players actions in game that aren't verbal and are destructive will be placed under a mechanical ban instead of just being Perma banned?

and also on the topic of escapism. while i agree we should have a more clear wall defining what gets dragged into the game, what about people on the deep end that are too engrossed in their characters that forget the distinction that this is in fact, a game. Luckily I haven't seen anyone on TG that's this fixated on a fake life, but I've seen it on other servers. How would you deal with that if it showed up here?

► Show Spoiler

I promise ill watch more of your streams. also I bought Disco Elysium but haven't played it yet because of the streams lol.

[TheRex9001]

Heya Rave, what do you plan on doing in the re-evaluation? Will you be gathering data and changing our approach? If so what do you think may be revealed?

[Tapubulu]

I quite like the sound of the in game punishments before perma

[RaveRadbury]

Thanks for posting in my thread, MothNyan. I've seen your posting around the forums but I'm not sure how much direct engagement we've had. I know that you've been passionate about non-humans in head roles and that you're fairly new in forum engagement. I appreciate that you're willing to log in and talk with people, even ones that disagree with you. I wish the forums had more of that.

• Strengthen LRP and MRP by properly defining their identities and expectations. The “High/Medium/Low” labels don’t really serve us anymore, and I think we can reframe into better terms that protect the best of MRP and LRP.

thats a pretty nifty point, i wonder if we should rename the distinctions between the two server entirely? Something to match their cultures

I'm proposing manny will be Mothroach Roleplay
and terry and sybil can be uuuh ummm- Cool Gamer Server

The idea behind this, and I'll elaborate further in my response to BritGrenadier, is to come up with a way of describing the two in contrast to one another that doesn't inherently use hierarchical terms. "High/Low" have implications of status especially because our game play has strong social factors. I've seen many LRP players express frustration about attitudes from MRP players and I think there's validity to the frustration. I think as long as we cast LRP as "inferior" or "troublesome" that LRP players will continue to feel at odds and on edge about staff's interest in their enjoyment of the game and community.

---

• Keep non-humans out of roundstart head roles.

awww
what's your reasoning for this?

Gonna merge the campaign thread discussion we started earlier

I could see myself voting for Raverad, I liked some of their takes that I've seen. But I'm curious... Rave, non-human heads, yes or no?
Not a deal breaker for me either way, just...
curious...

I had it in my soft launch thread: I am firm about keeping non-humans out of roundstart heads. I say this as someone who likes playing non-humans. I experienced non-human heads when I took some time to tour the broader community. Non-human heads on Paradise flattens out a lot of stuff and it makes the aliens feel less alien. The loss of complexity really highlighted the paper-doll nature of our character sprites.
So yeah, I prefer non-humans to have a more complex, dangerous, and downtrodden experience in our community rather than making ourselves more like things that are already out there.
I could see a future where we have one server that has non-human heads enabled, but I'd consider it specialized and non-standard.

although I'm not a fan of speciesism, I do think the compromise where asimov stays can lead to interesting conflict and situations, most people who argue agaisnt it are afraid of people getting upset about speciesism being wiped entirely in the future
I think there are many options we could try going down to encourage differences between species instead of locking away head roles entirely, which often just causes the issue where shitters take the roles cause non-human regulars dont want to make a human static
There's a lot of lore already written for mothpeople and lizards in the common core, and I have really interesting interactions with others who do read into the lore-bits
Irl people will often find other cultures to be strange or offputting, and I feel like this is an avenue that could be further explored
as well as making the common core lore more accessible, maybe codifying it into in-game books or even posters/items

I've seen the non-human heads discussion happen multiple times and it tends to happen along the same lines. Many staff have had at least a couple of rounds of this and it does cause an insensitivity towards engaging newer community members about the topic when it comes up. I've been in situations where I've been dismissed by old hands because they think I'm too new to have real questions or discussion, it doesn't feel good and it's not fair. So I'm going to shoot straight with you to clarify how I see the landscape of all this as well as try my best to engage the points you've raised.

From what I've seen looking into the history of our community and tracing lines of development, non-human features have always created tension about catering to furries with protagonist syndrome. There's a potent blend of social dynamics at play that many do not want to engage or upset someone over not engaging. The working truce that came out of these tensions of the past is that non-humans are mechanically disadvantaged and more difficult to play and they are not allowed to be heads of staff. This of course also informs our world building and helps add texture and dynamics that are easy to pick up and engage.

I like difficulty in non-humans. I load a lot of quirks onto my characters. I'm not actually that good at RP, I sign up for mechanical quirks that alter my play style. I find the idea of trying to survive in a place that is apathetic to hazards and needs for an outgroup to be challenging and interesting. I think roundstart non-human heads would affect this atmosphere even before code changes get made in the wake of it. And remember, the concern is protagonist syndrome people, most people associate that kind of person with entitlement and demand. I would lose interest in playing non-humans and less likely to support them without these balances and challenges. Many others share this sentiment.

These dynamics and history have caused non-human heads to be a kind of "vibe check" to see if people are willing to accept compromise and understand the balance of the community. There are a lot of community members that don't want non-human heads and don't want to say anything about it publicly because they don't want to make enemies or bad feelings over it. There are other community members who have no problem making enemies or bad feelings but hold off on that because they accept the balance at play. Ultimately because we are a public server and community we have to seek compromise and balance. This isn't something that can be relegated to the community because it has come to be a part of the balance that the coding team appreciates and sees as the tone we want.

People say that crewsimov follows non-human heads because there are other servers that do non-human heads and that's what happened. This isn't a matter of speculation, arguments against history have to differentiate why what happened at other places wouldn't happen here. I think that's hard to prove, especially considering the rhetoric that gets brought into these kinds of discussions. Many people who ask for non-human heads want it for their personal enjoyment and comfort, which circles back to the concern about protagonist syndrome. In a bad light this can be framed as being self-absorbed or entitled, and the general spirit of the community is that it's not a single player game which in this case extends beyond hyper-focusing on game play mechanics. "Non-human regulars aren't willing to play a human static" is demonstrative of the concern that the opposition has: if you're too invested in your character to be able to run a human character it has implications about values and self vs community.

At this point "non-human heads roundstart" carries weight and implications beyond what it says on the tin, especially within the history of our community. When people say "There are other servers for that if you'd like to have that" it's a sincere expression because there is not the interest from staff at-large to engage or administrate it.

I think lore is a fun development in our community and I'm so grateful to EOB and others who put so much work into it. Lore has been another example of something that has, historically, in SS13 places had a lot of drama and self-importance. I think we are blessed to have avoided that, although as you indicated, other people have to also brush up on it in order for that to fully play out. If you can move past the bitter pill that is "no roundstart human heads" (and I hope you can) I think your ideas of incorporating more of the lore into the map via posters and such would be welcomed and appreciated. If you can't, I totally understand and respect that it's a deal breaker for you and if you founded your own server over it I would send people who wanted what you want your way, so you could cater to them.

[RaveRadbury]

As it was for the last few times they've ran, I'm putting my endorsement towards Rave. They've done an exceptional job in the past and I have a lot of respect for them in general. I think a vote for Rave is a vote for a more reasonable, enjoyable server for all.

Thank you, Vekter.

[MothNyan]

Thanks for posting in my thread, MothNyan. I've seen your posting around the forums but I'm not sure how much direct engagement we've had. I know that you've been passionate about non-humans in head roles and that you're fairly new in forum engagement. I appreciate that you're willing to log in and talk with people, even ones that disagree with you. I wish the forums had more of that.

I think it's nice that we're all passionate about SS13 in one way or another, and I feel like the community here is special. I do think this game's changed me a lot, for better or for worse maybe! That's why I care at least, and I'm sure others feel the same way

From what I've seen looking into the history of our community and tracing lines of development, non-human features have always created tension about catering to furries with protagonist syndrome. There's a potent blend of social dynamics at play that many do not want to engage or upset someone over not engaging. The working truce that came out of these tensions of the past is that non-humans are mechanically disadvantaged and more difficult to play and they are not allowed to be heads of staff. This of course also informs our world building and helps add texture and dynamics that are easy to pick up and engage.

I like difficulty in non-humans. I load a lot of quirks onto my characters. I'm not actually that good at RP, I sign up for mechanical quirks that alter my play style. I find the idea of trying to survive in a place that is apathetic to hazards and needs for an outgroup to be challenging and interesting. I think roundstart non-human heads would affect this atmosphere even before code changes get made in the wake of it. And remember, the concern is protagonist syndrome people, most people associate that kind of person with entitlement and demand. I would lose interest in playing non-humans and less likely to support them without these balances and challenges. Many others share this sentiment.

I've seen this argument before, and I think the problem is that it is pretty short sighted as I've seen many human-static players who have protagonist syndrome and are extremely attached to their characters - but that's completely fine because they're human. I've seen players who draw and commission artwork of their human statics, talk about their human statics and their lore often outside of the game itself, and expecting everyone to know who they are and to respect them- all while looking down on nonhuman statics and saying they're the entitled ones with protagonist syndrome.

I feel that this is also a tough argument to discuss because it is biased, anyone who argues against it will automatically be cast as; "that kind of person with entitlement and demand".

There are many reasons why someone might want to play as a non-human for RP purposes, you say you're not good at RP- but there are many people who live for world building and imagining what different alien cultures may be like, their living conditions, and how that affects them as a character. The basis of this argument is, I feel, just based on "furry bad", without much further nuance. There may also be reasons why someone doesn't want to play as a human character, which isn't necessarily because they're a furry, nor because they want to for whatever reason be discriminated against (from my observations I've noticed that people who make this argument either don't play very often or main a human static, meaning the experience is novel to them.)

I end up thinking about this interesting anime a lot, called Odd Taxi, which I'll spoil the ending below;

► Show Spoiler

The anime is about a taxi driver, and everyone in the anime is some sort of animal- at the end of the anime it's found out that after experiencing extreme trauma and abuse, the taxi driver's psyche became unstable and to subconsciously comfort himself, started seeing every human as an animal instead.
I thought it was a really interesting ending, and the show made me think a lot about things. Animals are often easier to look at because they're not complex like humans and a lot more lovable. A pet for example can unconditionally love you- which not everyone can receive from a parent.

This might sound silly or stupid to some people, but there's a reason why furry communities are also so rife with traumatized and mentally ill people; humans have caused most of their issues in life and so they may start to see humans as a root of complex and bitter thoughts.

I like playing as a moth character because I love moths irl, I like exploring ideas of mothic culture, I like that moths are seeking out lights to guide their way, and this has been a solid fact about me from even before I've joined this community. I see players who aren't self-absorbed but enjoy building up their characters, it can be a fun thinking exercise to try and imagine worlds and cultures that don't exist in this world.

Many people who ask for non-human heads want it for their personal enjoyment and comfort, which circles back to the concern about protagonist syndrome. In a bad light this can be framed as being self-absorbed or entitled, and the general spirit of the community is that it's not a single player game which in this case extends beyond hyper-focusing on game play mechanics. "Non-human regulars aren't willing to play a human static" is demonstrative of the concern that the opposition has: if you're too invested in your character to be able to run a human character it has implications about values and self vs community.

So this is why human players are allowed enjoyment and comfort? It's fine to be a protagonist as long as you're the pre-approved human species?
True, this isn't a single player game, but why is speciesism okay when it's purely for the one-sided enjoyment of the person who is bullying another?

Some people like to say that they can get off on getting their revenge or seeing that human player get their ass beaten for being a speciesist, but, a majority of the time people just aren't robust enough to protect themselves. Especially if there's a gang of people taking the piss on you. You usually just have to take it and move on with the round. If you're not robust enough, it literally adds no real conflict and just reinforces how miserable and powerless you are.
Is that the type of feeling you want people to feel playing this game?

All because "furry bad"?

At this point "non-human heads roundstart" carries weight and implications beyond what it says on the tin, especially within the history of our community. When people say "There are other servers for that if you'd like to have that" it's a sincere expression because there is not the interest from staff at-large to engage or administrate it.

The problem of "just go to another server" is that it's really sad when most of your friends are on this server. It simply causes additional divide within the community, and some people may not really like the vibes of other servers either. I like the chaos of tgstation servers, I feel like when you go to HRP servers you can't "just be silly" and I don't like that. I don't like fart jokes or playing with underaged players either.

And honestly, it's no different than saying; "Go away, we don't want you here."

[RaveRadbury]

What do you think about the current culture shift on Manuel? Would you try to adjust it with ban/rule updates?

I have been clued in to how things are going in Manuel via discussion in bus and direct conversations with community bellwethers.
I think the current culture shift is reminiscent of the Bagil/Sybil dynamic that existed pre-Manuel. There are players who are willing to play low pop if it means that they get the pacing and social RP they want. Other players want to play on a highpop server and they tend to have preferences and tendencies that the low pop people were trying to escape. Before Manny existed the driving force was high-level players like Lexia Black driving people to play on the other server to avoid getting murderboned for the 5th time in a row. The lowpop server would change as people moved with the currents.

The current situation on Manuel is critical and important for all parties involved. Sybil loyalists don't have the pop they need to have the experience they want. I have always believed that highpop is critical for LRP enjoyment.
I don't think more bans and rules are the solution to this problem. I think this is a social and community issue. I think that the organization needs to do more to win back hearts and minds as well as trying to bring in new people. We need to put effort in and with all this renewed energy around us I think great things can happen if we push together.

Once Sybil has pop again the issue should naturally resolve itself.

I see the shift in framing of LRP and MRP away from their current titles as an opportunity to clarify MRP and LRP expectations in a way that not only suits both groups but also more clearly communicates what makes the two environments different and better sets expectations.

A community meeting would be a strong first step. Showing up for a good faith conversation away from the game could be fruitful. At the very least those who show up will feel more united and community members will have an opportunity to speak their concerns and share their ideas. At best people could gain new understanding and we could have more community harmony.

What are your thoughts on rule 4 and LRP in general? Can you give an example of how you might strengthen LRP/MRP by properly defining their expectations?

My personal opinion on Rule 4 is that it's put on a pedestal to allay very real concerns about personal freedom. In a world where I can do anything I want without consequence I'd tone it down a little.

The reality is that Rule 4 is very complicated to address and I don't think that the current climate would benefit from altering it. In the upcoming term, if the community is willing, I think we can refine Rule 4 to better protect the spirit of LRP while addressing concerns from its opponents. This would only happen with full buy-in from LRP players and admins, ensuring that any changes improve their experience rather than diminish it. This would be out of protection of the spirit of LRP and there could be aspects of the outcome that MRP-minded admins disagree with. But that's compromise.

To fully clarify: I would not alter Rule 4 without support and buy-in from LRP admins and the LRP community. Which means that whatever solution is possible has to be something that they feel is better for them than what they have now. I think that's possible if people are willing to talk about things with respect and consideration.

As for redefining MRP/LRP, take "Fast/Slow" as an example.
To me "Fast RP" describes accurately the pacing and zaniness that LRP is treasured for. "Slow RP" likewise sets expectations for playing on Manuel. Neither of these terms implies that one is better than the other, and to me, being able to point at "fast" or "slow" as justifications for how things should be seems firmer and more productive than labeling things as "NRP". I think that NRP has become dismissive. At this point it's lost value and it no longer serves the community.

When was the last time you played a full round of space station, and what did you do during it?

Gonna be real with you there hasn't been a full one since last time, during the Wallening. I walked around and took the sights in before eventually sitting in a maint disco ruin and vibing in ooc.

The previous host cast a long and dark shadow on my desire to engage with the game. Since that has passed I've been helping with staff stuff. I'm not going to fully claim Timberpoes' stance as I don't take pride in my inactivity, but similar to Tim I listen to people who are boots-on-the-ground and I engage in discussion rather than just firing from the hip of my own personal experience. I agree with Timberpoes' assertion that leadership sits on the support of the group and has a duty to channel reported experiences over asserting personal truth.

Why do you think the game would be better without non human command?

I think that field promotions are great! I just don't like roundstart non-human heads. It's a specific distinction and it keeps a healthy distance from crewsimov-as-normal. Field promotions require an amount of coordination and engagement. They aren't guaranteed! Whether a field promotion succeeds or not, the pursuit itself adds tension, engagement, and texture to the round’s story.

[RaveRadbury]

snip

I appreciate your engagement here, and I respect that this issue is personal for you. But I think there’s an important distinction to make:

• I don’t believe this is about "furry bad", it’s about maintaining the balance of the game and the experience it creates.
• You even mention that non-human characters currently struggle and feel "powerless", that’s exactly what makes them unique. If you remove that, they stop feeling alien.
• I don’t doubt that some human players have protagonist syndrome too, but that’s all the more reason why we have limitations on how much individual characters can dominate the round.
• As for the community aspect, I totally understand not wanting to leave your friends. That’s a fair emotional point. But every server has different design choices, and this has been a long-standing one for a reason.
• Your ideas about lore integration with posters and map elements are actually really cool. If we can bring more in-game ways to establish culture, I’d love to see that pursued.

[Timberpoes]

When was the last time you played a full round of space station, and what did you do during it?

Gonna be real with you there hasn't been a full one since last time, during the Wallening. I walked around and took the sights in before eventually sitting in a maint disco ruin and vibing in ooc.

The previous host cast a long and dark shadow on my desire to engage with the game. Since that has passed I've been helping with staff stuff. I'm not going to fully claim Timberpoes' stance as I don't take pride in my inactivity, but similar to Tim I listen to people who are boots-on-the-ground and I engage in discussion rather than just firing from the hip of my own personal experience. I agree with Timberpoes' assertion that leadership sits on the support of the group and has a duty to channel reported experiences over asserting personal truth.

(Timberpoes play/admin activity alarm has been rung.)

So I'm going to give my input since I was mentioned as wearing my non-play non-admin stuff as a badge of pride.

Not playing but still being connected to the game and community modifies your biases. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't take pride in not playing, I take pride in how I'm able to connect with others despite not playing and how I can often provide outsider perspectives despite being so damn deep within the system.

But it's a double-edged blade in that respect too. And that double-edged blade is the reason I tend to stick out like a half-hammered nail when headmin. My biases are so radically different both from those that regularly play and those that regularly admin. So I exist in totally different echo chambers and are driven by different motives.

For example it makes me completely immune to ided knee jerks to not really be an active player, and makes me less influenced by administrative circle jerks and wankery. So I tend to be a more player-sided force in appeals and complaints, and more hesitant to change policy just because one player/admin died that one time and made an ided policy thread. But it also means I need to put more effort into being cognizant around key topics of the day and I don't have my own experiences to trust so I always have to inform myself through others, which can be an unreliable source.

Also as a three term headmin, play and admin activity numbers have basically 0 impact on an individual's headmin activity. It's a roll of the die as to if they can survive 6 months or if they get burned out and check out in all but the most minimum duties by the end. Rave is lucky in that they have past terms they can fall back on to showcase this and speak on it with the authority no other non-GM candidate really can.

And no matter what the candidate says, they're going to take a huge activity dip during headmin in both adminning and playing if they were doing both with any regularity before.

So I encourage anyone voting to consider this alternative perspective to play, playstyle and activity numbers. They're not the marker of a good headmin, just of a headmin with a different set of biases that can influence them.

Consider how Rave keeps themselves informed of topics and how the reality of their position within the admin team, playerbase and community as a whole can influence the decisions they make.

Maybe your voice will be one of the ones they listen to if they're using sources other than their own play experiences or whatever biases they get from adminning on the front lines?

[RaveRadbury]

Hi rave! I said id vote for you, but I want to see what everyone has to offer before I make a choice, so no promises!

Id like you to elaborate on what you mean by Quirk bans instead of Permabans. does this mean that players actions in game that aren't verbal and are destructive will be placed under a mechanical ban instead of just being Perma banned?

and also on the topic of escapism. while i agree we should have a more clear wall defining what gets dragged into the game, what about people on the deep end that are too engrossed in their characters that forget the distinction that this is in fact, a game. Luckily I haven't seen anyone on TG that's this fixated on a fake life, but I've seen it on other servers. How would you deal with that if it showed up here?

► Show Spoiler

I promise ill watch more of your streams. also I bought Disco Elysium but haven't played it yet because of the streams lol.

Hi jamarkus! ofc ofc I understand, smart shoppers shop around

Basically I've found that quirks are a great way to stave off burnout and find new challenges and growth opportunities. We already have pax'ing as in in-game consequence and a quirk. While adminning I've had a handful of encounters with people who had issues and difficulty with escalation but really enjoyed the game and community. These people fit the kind of "damned" narrative that gets painted with note/ban progression, because the person is having a hard time adjusting to expectations. I thought "Wouldn't it be better for them to appeal a pax ban after some time having to sit out on fighting rather than having to be kicked out of the game?" I've also noticed that the blind quirk results in players being more verbal and engaging in cooperation to compensate. I think even bad faith engagements of it would still produce a reduction in the volume of disruptive behavior from the quirk'ed player. Ideally it's enough of a shock and shift in game play that they explore other avenues of fun in the game, which would help them from falling back into the behaviors that brought the bwoink in the first place. I think this is better than a perma.

Also, in the time since I first conceived of this idea the blinding stew meme hit, lmao
cw: discussion of a stew that will blind you for one day

► Show Spoiler

---

I really dig your foresight and caution on immersion, because, yeah we do want it to stay a game and there are negatives with too much. I'd say that we do experience milder forms of these issues, such as assuming that an IC insult to your character is a player-to-player communication. Outcomes like this are a result of weak/nebulous norms and expectations, which are cultural issues that I'd argue staff are responsible for navigating with the community. I think it would be a good topic for an infographic or two, some nice concise info enhanced with design. If people understand and buy-in to where the line is (because it's an agreeable pitch and we distribute the info well) then we're reducing confusion and setting expectations so no one has to feel personally insulted by mistake.

My desire for escapism/immersion is more rooted in having a place to vibe with your friends without having to experience current events. I think in the wake of the previous host we'd all like more fun with friends and less hard details of reality.

► Show Spoiler

Hey that's alright I'm taking a bit of a break from streaming right now but thank you for bringing it up! I want to get back on the horse soon . DE was so much fun, let me know what build you go for!

[RaveRadbury]

Another satisfying Timberpost

I always appreciate the nuance you bring to the table, thank you for your time, Timber.

[britgrenadier1]

Nah play time is pretty important. “Immunity to knee jerk ideds” just means you have no idea what is bugging the playerbase. Writing it off as fotm whining, and not making policy is how we get people to code fun out of the game.

I’m not here to debate your tenure in Rave’s thread, but I will conclusively point to the mid term meltdown over non human heads and wallstation(???) you had as pretty good indicators of what happens when you’re detached from the game for too long.

We don’t need more old guard game masters. We’re entering a new era that needs to be spearheaded by fresh blood.

[RaveRadbury]

Heya Rave, what do you plan on doing in the re-evaluation? Will you be gathering data and changing our approach? If so what do you think may be revealed?

I'm an iterative/exploring guy so while I can see a few steps ahead I do like to follow opportunities and have conversations before I plot a course fully forward.

You and I have talked about how there are players and community members that have a certain gravity to them. I think that we need to do more to understand these kinds of people in our community and discuss openly what it means to carry that kind of weight and also have an expectation of fairness in the community. Part of this might involve discussing positive attributes of people who aren't around anymore: I'm hoping that we can take care to keep focus on what it is we're studying rather than the baggage surrounding it.

If our exploration and discussion bears fruit we'd hopefully find ourselves with a better understanding of community structure and dynamics (that can treat our community as inter-related people rather than individual players). If we can apply the insight to our data, all the better! At the very least I think it would leave the player base feeling better heard and it would give staff a lot of information and perspective to consider.

Honestly I can't fully know what will be revealed, but I think the nature of what it will be is apparent and it will be a boon to our community's future.

[MatrixOne]

Thank you for your patient responses, I hope you'll win the headminship! I do think play time is important, it's a way to connect with the community and how the server "is" at any given time, and it gives players the reassurance that you're present and involved. It matters.

[RaveRadbury]

Thank you for your patient responses, I hope you'll win the headminship! I do think play time is important, it's a way to connect with the community and how the server "is" at any given time, and it gives players the reassurance that you're present and involved. It matters.

Thank you, MatrixOne! I saw your post in the general election thread, I appreciate that someone with your time in the community would see me as a stabilizing and effective force for further recovery.

I agree with you that play time is an important factor, especially for the player vote. It's straightforward why voting for someone who shares one's day-to-day experiences of the servers is a good idea.

For myself, I'm thinking that I should get back into playing and adminning weekly.

[MatrixOne]

What do you think about admin complaints vs admin feedback vs resolving things with adminbus pings? Is it better for admins to resolve any issues between each other by just talking about in in adminbus to preserve more cohesion and trust between admins, or would you encourage making things more public and encourage admins (and players) to make more complaints or write admin feedback? I feel like the feedback threads are not a good place for negative feedback because it can't really be discussed much, since it'd be spamming their personal thread, and there don't seem to be peanut threads for admin feedback but complaints always seem to get a discussion going about them, however complaints can feel more accusatory for the admin being complained on. The system thus has some issues that could be ironed out.

I think a big selling point of TG is above average admin accountability compared to other servers so these systems make us look good. Also I know this is all not really part of your campaign, so if you don't have a "plan" for this ready that's understandable. Rex said they wanted to encourage more mutual resolutions in appeals and fewer headmin rulings, which to me was concerning since headmin rulings tend to clarify rules and serve as reference for the future. But it might also be a net positive if admins can resolve disputes internally as it might promote some cohesion and trust with the team. You have a lot of experience so I'd be curious about your take on this. I care about both admin vs admin appeals/complaints but also player vs admin ones, I think the system works quite well in player vs admin scenarios and I don't think it needs any changes there.

Edit to respond to post below: Adminbus resolutions are only for complaints between admins, there was no confusion from my side. Players' issues shouldn't be resolved out of view, and I am not a fan of admin ones being resolved in private channels either, but I understand that while encouraging admin vs admin transparency can be a "good look" on the surface, it might simply cause admins not to bring things up as often and may actually result in fewer discussions, internal or otherwise.

[TheRex9001]

Rex said they wanted to encourage more mutual resolutions in appeals and fewer headmin rulings, which to me was concerning since headmin rulings tend to clarify rules and serve as reference for the future. But it might also be a net positive if admins can resolve disputes internally as it might promote some cohesion and trust with the team.

Not my campaign thread but I want to clarify here, a mutual resolution of an appeal is between the admin and appealant, not the adminteam.

[RaveRadbury]

What do you think about admin complaints vs admin feedback vs resolving things with adminbus pings? Is it better for admins to resolve any issues between each other by just talking about in in adminbus to preserve more cohesion and trust between admins, or would you encourage making things more public and encourage admins (and players) to make more complaints or write admin feedback? I feel like the feedback threads are not a good place for negative feedback because it can't really be discussed much, since it'd be spamming their personal thread, and there don't seem to be peanut threads for admin feedback but complaints always seem to get a discussion going about them, however complaints can feel more accusatory for the admin being complained on. The system thus has some issues that could be ironed out.

I think a big selling point of TG is above average admin accountability compared to other servers so these systems make us look good. Also I know this is all not really part of your campaign, so if you don't have a "plan" for this ready that's understandable. Rex said they wanted to encourage more mutual resolutions in appeals and fewer headmin rulings, which to me was concerning since headmin rulings tend to clarify rules and serve as reference for the future. But it might also be a net positive if admins can resolve disputes internally as it might promote some cohesion and trust with the team. You have a lot of experience so I'd be curious about your take on this. I care about both admin vs admin appeals/complaints but also player vs admin ones, I think the system works quite well in player vs admin scenarios and I don't think it needs any changes there.

I've got no problem having some thoughts on this, I like workshopping and talking shop. This is a very interesting line of thought for me and I had to sleep on it. Even though Rex has clarified his stance since I think there's still more to discuss.

- A lot of admin tensions do get resolved internally, and I think it is best for cohesion because getting called out publicly by other staff can breed animosity in a way that makes everything worse. The only admin complain I've ever made against another admin was against a sitting headmin, otherwise I would have asked to be batcaved and then I'd share my concerns. Afaik this is basic Internal Affairs and Human Resources stuff. Having that said we value transparency so there are post mortem statements that are provided where we try to be as informative as we can. Timberpoes has shifted policy on discretion over the years, we're more open about things than we used to be. Still, we try to err on the side of discretion and privacy because we're an online community.

- Admin feedback actually has plenty of room for negative feedback. It's meant to be a place to contain opinions that can't be actioned on but need to written down somewhere. I've also seen admins engage their feedback and discuss further with the player with a successful resolution. It's like Google Reviews, you can discuss someone's review of you if you want. You don't have to. But it's not an emotional sink, headmins do look at feedback threads. Most feedback threads look the way they do because people tend to give positive feedback or admins want to let players have their opinions. If a player left feedback and said "I'd like to discuss this more with you here, please" I'd think the admin would try their best to engage. Some posts are high in salt content and do not invite engagement, but they are meant to be there as that is the place for them. Players need to be able to write their opinions down in a meaningful place especially when they aren't going to get their way administratively.

- Your point on headmin rulings highlights how we ape the common law (Five Eyes and British-affected countries) systems of rulings and precedents. This is very cool and fun for people who like to look through old appeals and trace the shifts in our culture, it also allows for flexibility and adaptation to how the community changes. It's very "spirit of the law", but the problem is that it produces the Headmin Rulings Page. Some people feel that the headmin rulings are an extension of the rules and therefore a large expectation to put on players and ESL players. You have to know enough about recent rulings to fully know if you're breaking the rules or not. Thankfully, application of administration is not such that we're fining people for not knowing about something, admins can have conversations with or without notes that smooth out those issues. Which I guess says that the general expectation is that admins should know the rulings and explain them to players.

- I think the recent trend of headmins encouraging admins to engage players more is a good thing and I'd like to see that trend continue. We're all one community and anyone who goes through the effort of making an account to appeal a ban (even if they are the most bristly and as authority-oppositional as possible) that what's happening is a necessary and important conversation rather than the moment to double down on being right. Burnout tends to do that to some people. The easiest help to that is to develop something like example talk-paths for conflict resolution/engagement. A lot of our training materials are informal and passed down from trainer to admin, that could be improved. Give people tools to make the experience smoother for both sides.

Bit of a wander through those topics, if there's something you'd like to hear more from me on, let me know.

[MothNyan]

snip

I appreciate your engagement here, and I respect that this issue is personal for you. But I think there’s an important distinction to make:

• I don’t believe this is about "furry bad", it’s about maintaining the balance of the game and the experience it creates.
• You even mention that non-human characters currently struggle and feel "powerless", that’s exactly what makes them unique. If you remove that, they stop feeling alien.
• I don’t doubt that some human players have protagonist syndrome too, but that’s all the more reason why we have limitations on how much individual characters can dominate the round.
• As for the community aspect, I totally understand not wanting to leave your friends. That’s a fair emotional point. But every server has different design choices, and this has been a long-standing one for a reason.
• Your ideas about lore integration with posters and map elements are actually really cool. If we can bring more in-game ways to establish culture, I’d love to see that pursued.

It took me a while to get back to you on this one chief, cause quite frankly I am a firm believer in the saying "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

But I do feel I have to say something, because I'm not the only one passionate about the non-human species out there, though I wish the others would share their voice and feelings more. Not that many of them can- there have been a lot of people who've already long left the community due to being harassed because of speciesism.

I think it's rather disappointing that people herald bullying and discrimination towards race as something good that should be preserved.

I think what really upsets me is, you as someone who doesn't even play the game, goes ahead and says that struggling and feeling powerless is unique and a good thing.
It's like defending schoolyard bullying as a good thing, are we kids or are we adults?

It's such a tired topic, and it always ends up with the people who are passionate about nonhuman species insulted indirectly or directly. I keep leaving the game and coming back because people want me to come back, but I don't think I want to continue playing or supporting a community or a game that thinks that bullying and harassment is a good thing.

[RaveRadbury]

Snip

I get that this is a frustrating and deeply personal issue for you, and I appreciate you coming back to engage even though it's exhausting. But I have to push back on the idea that preserving in-game power dynamics is the same as supporting real-life bullying.

This isn't about 'harassment': it's about creating a game world with meaningful differences in power, risk, and roleplay tension. Plenty of people, including myself (as a non-human player), enjoy the struggle of playing non-humans because it adds depth and makes them feel distinct. Without those challenges, non-humans risk becoming nothing more than reskinned humans, which removes a lot of the storytelling potential they have.

I’m not denying that some players can be assholes about it, but bad behavior from individuals is different from a game’s core design philosophy. If people are genuinely harassing others as players, that’s an admin issue and should be handled accordingly. But if the concern is that non-humans face in-character struggles, then that’s just part of what makes them compelling to play.

I don’t expect this to be a position we agree on, but I also don’t want you to think that the community is hostile to you or that your concerns don’t matter. You clearly care about this a lot, and I respect that. My only ask is that we don’t collapse game design conversations into moral accusations: we’re all here to have fun, even if we have different ideas of what that means.

[RaveRadbury]

I quite like the sound of the in game punishments before perma

Hey Tapu, thanks for weighing in.

Based on what you know from the people you play with, do you think that most players would prefer a pax or blind ban over a game ban?
Some have posited that there are players who would feel that the ban compromised their experience to the point of treating it like a game ban and waiting it out, which would defeat the point.

Have you played with negative quirks? If so: Which ones are your favorite? Which ones have you found the most challenging to survive with? Which ones changed your play style the most?

[Tapubulu]

I quite like the sound of the in game punishments before perma

Hey Tapu, thanks for weighing in.

Based on what you know from the people you play with, do you think that most players would prefer a pax or blind ban over a game ban?
Some have posited that there are players who would feel that the ban compromised their experience to the point of treating it like a game ban and waiting it out, which would defeat the point.

Have you played with negative quirks? If so: Which ones are your favorite? Which ones have you found the most challenging to survive with? Which ones changed your play style the most?

Well as someone who just caught a completely deserved day ban over a ttv, I'd be way happier with a Pax ban preventing me from doing the same thing again while also letting me understand that I fucked up and broke a rule. And I see the point of people saying they'd just not play, but I feel like that's part of the benefit. A quirk based punishment would allow people to still interact with the game to a degree, or just wait out the duration. That being said, whether it is a quirk punishment or a game ban should definitely be based on the rule break. I haven't interacted with too many of the negative quirks, but I could definitely could see how being stuck in a wheelchair could be a good reminder that you fucked up recently.

[WineAllWine]

For now, Rave has my vote. They're admin focussed and against non-human heads.

And they have a great dog

[Striders13]

[*]Re-evaluate our statistical approach to community population and open up discussion on understanding "core" players who draw others in. Our current approach is missing key dynamics.

I think this is a very important point that shouldn't be overlooked. Things were always run like "we change things and it's okay that our playerbase doesn't like them, we can always get new people".
Well, we're not getting new people anymore, so we should put in more effort in keeping our current community around.

[Maxipat]

[*]Implement quirk bans in the database so people can get paxed or blinded as an additional step before perma. This adds another layer of correction without immediately resorting to game bans.

Isn't this code territory? Do we have the framework to even place such bans?

[Vekter]

[*]Implement quirk bans in the database so people can get paxed or blinded as an additional step before perma. This adds another layer of correction without immediately resorting to game bans.

Isn't this code territory? Do we have the framework to even place such bans?

It's a little of both IIRC

[RaveRadbury]

[*]Implement quirk bans in the database so people can get paxed or blinded as an additional step before perma. This adds another layer of correction without immediately resorting to game bans.

Isn't this code territory? Do we have the framework to even place such bans?

I am so glad you asked! I've had this idea for a while and had it as a plank of the platform that won my 2nd term. During that election I fully hedged the concept as "something that my fellow headmins have to agree with, and the code team would have to okay it." This was surprisingly achievable at the time, except for the code challenge of altering the DB to accept new ban types. I offered a bounty for it but there just wasn't interest at the time I guess. Since then the 1 day blinding stew meme came into existence and it's actually way easier to communicate the concept in a way that clicks with people. It also means fewer game bans, which has long been a sore spot (what do we do with someone who can't find their way out of patterns of over-escalation? currently we have to remove them from the game).

So:

Is this code territory?
- Yes, involved parties will also have to OK it. I am not assuming that they will support this, however I have to make my intentions clear and give them time to have their own thoughts and opinions on it and then engage with those thoughts.

If it's code territory why can it be in your platform?
- I'm not promising it, I'm saying that I want to see it happen.

Do we have the framework?
- No, but I think there is more interest for it now and it's more easily achieved. I'm still up for commissioning it. With our current pop issues and demands for bans on LRP players playing on manny, quirk bans are a strategy that could produce good results.

This is something I'll be pursuing regardless of the election outcome, but I've found that being headmin makes things happen faster and more easily.

[RaveRadbury]

[*]Re-evaluate our statistical approach to community population and open up discussion on understanding "core" players who draw others in. Our current approach is missing key dynamics.

I think this is a very important point that shouldn't be overlooked. Things were always run like "we change things and it's okay that our playerbase doesn't like them, we can always get new people".
Well, we're not getting new people anymore, so we should put in more effort in keeping our current community around.

I appreciate that this concern resonates with you, Striders. My hope is that we can use this window of renewal through this upcoming term to demonstrate to the community at large why it's worth spending time on our servers again. I think it's best to strike while the iron is hot on this, because attitudes will cool as energy fades and apathy creeps back in.

Community doesn't grow itself as a matter of course, it has to be nurtured by community members.

[RaveRadbury]

This has been such a great election so far, my only regret is not posting even more! I'll be updating my OP (already did a little), and polishing things up for voting week. Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread and the rest of the election discussions. It's fantastic seeing everyone genuinely giving a fuck.

[RaveRadbury]

Striders has made the choice to endorse my plans to get pop back, in turn I am endorsing him.

Rave ... I genuinely believe he's capable of getting us our pop back.

I am officially endorsing Striders, if you plan to vote Rave #1 please put Striders at #2

Striders - Signaled his buy-in on me fixing pop, and honestly buy-in is the most needed thing to give a chance to anything I do to try to improve things. This kind of energy from someone like Striders is powerful.

Striders has provided essential services to our streaming oversight, I've found this invaluable. Their merry attitude always lifts spirits and it hides a deep commitment to the community.
Sometimes it doesn't land with some people. To those I say: Striders is as responsible and thoughtful as any other highly-invested community member, they just prefer some lightness in their presentation.

Much like their spirit animal striders is an embodiment of wisdom and also goofy irl

[RaveRadbury]

I will be AFK this weekend
Campaign death, I know, so I'm setting out my dog to protect my thread while I'm away. Her name is Curie, please be nice to her.





Here she is after a nice wash cycle.

[RaveRadbury]

Congrats to Striders, Rex, and Iain0! This is going to be a great term!!

And a big thanks to everyone who voted for me! Stay tuned, I'm gonna be up to stuff this term. Gonna keep that momentum going!