damn it's dead

[datorangebottle]

Bottom post of the previous page:

It's also not an inherently incorrect idea. If wallening had worked flawlessly from the start we wouldn't be talking about this right now.

[dirk_mcblade]

It's also not an inherently incorrect idea. If wallening had worked flawlessly from the start we wouldn't be talking about this right now.

If anything works then we wouldn't be talking about it.
Why are we sacrificing the south (and perhaps west/east) walls' hangings to make the game look like an unanimated version of a super nintendo game? Byond can't even catch up to a game system that was released more than 30 years ago. The game wasn't built around having objects hidden by south walls and trying to fold it in retroactively is a major task.

[Agux909]

I'll admit that oranges is on a bit of a redemption arc--but I find it hard to be lenient towards him because, as he readily admitted, he claims responsibility for the current culture of blatantly ignoring almost all and any player feedback; he even celebrated it in the past by saying something along the lines of "It's what we've done for years and its always worked". He was the poster child for this behavior--and as far as I'm concerned "actionable feedback" is just a buzzword used to ignore any and all feedback that doesn't reinforce the toxic positive feedback loop which got us here in the first place.

As for players being venomous to coders--obviously I don't condone people saying death threats or anything else that crosses a line, but I also WON'T take responsibility for it. Why? Because as opposed to the coderbase, the players have no "head players" which oversee and which are responsible for player conduct. The playerbase is totally amorphous and disunited, and doesn't approach anything close to a group or organization. The fact that the coderbase DOES have head coders who are the keyholders, final decision makers and etc., means that more collective responsibility can be applied when criticizing them. It's that simple really.

I wanted to quote some of your stuff at the wallening thread but whoops, just so happens that my playtime (or lack thereof) has reached the critical threshold to disqualify me from posting in the player's club.

I've been vaguely following the vibes on the forum, just lurking as I usually do. Checking certain people's responses and behaviors. More or less agree with the points you have made here and there, and many other fellow players' sentiments. Only thing I currently find myself skeptical about is this idea that anything is actually changing for the better. Aside from finally calling out coding leadership on their, as you'd call it, collective bullshit, and them having to save face with some nicely written "apologies", I'm 99.99% unconvinced anything is actually changing.

I might be wrong, but the impression is quite palpable. Oranges is still calling the shots, even tho he isn't headcoder anymore, which given all things is pretty awful.

On a perfect world he wouldn't even be a mantainer anymore, or have anything to do with the codebase direction, but I'm sure a lot of people still respect him and hold him as an authority figure even with all the toxic behavior and animosity he has seeded on /tg/ across these years.

Imo, stepping down as headcoder wasn't enough, it was just a little stunt and changes absolutely nothing at all. I don't know him personally at all (maybe hes a nice guy!), but I've always had a hard time deciphering him, his constant ironic tones and nonchalant impunity self-awareness, saying things like he is the villain, then accepting he is mainly the cause for the player/codebase feuds, and seeming proud of it, but still remaining in a position that is considered to have some control over the codebase. Breathe in, breathe out.

I'm not on the discord anymore so maybe there is some sort of miraculous update on things im not up to speed to. Feel free to correct me if I'm talking from absurd levels of ignorance, these were and are the vibes I have gotten from the situation these last years and lately, and it's looking grim.

Normally I would have mulled over this message 20 times, edited it other 10, then decided against posting it. I have done so countless times with giant essays on which I decided it wasn't really worth the time continuing a debate which had little impact on my life. And at this point I don't give a damn, it's very unlikely I ever come back.

Reason I'm posting it is because that 0.01% of me is hoping there can be an actual miracle, that someone will come and tell me "But wait Agux, things are actually getting better, look:" and convince me that the server I've most enjoyed playing has any chance to get off these rails leading to an ever closer precipice.

[dirk_mcblade]

Fair enough. As for your questions regarding what it would take to revert those changes you were you looking at, the answer would be not hard. In order to create a server while what you're thinking of, first you'd fork the most recent version of the /tg/ repo. Then, go to the PRS that made the changes you don't want, and you can look at the changes they made on Github and simply make PRs to your repo which do the opposite, ex. add the old code, remove the new code. Alternatively, just code the old functionality back in without referring to the old code if you feel confident enough, some of the smaller changes are extremely short line changes. Then, you'd set up a bot which automatically PRs pull requests merged to mainline /tg/ onto your downstream repo, where you decide to let them through on your own judgement, and you can simply choose not to merge code that has merge conflicts with your changes to makes changes to stuff that doesn't exist on your repo (ex. a change to progtots).

For example if I make a PR to revert this PR: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/63588
There will still be lots of merged PRs that build on 63588.
What happens to those "descendent" merged PRs? Does this have the potential to break the game later if enough of these orphaned PRs accumulate changes?
Do you have a link to an instructional resource about coding this bot that automatically pulls the tgstation PRs onto my downstream repo where I decide what to implement?

[8bot]

It's also not an inherently incorrect idea. If wallening had worked flawlessly from the start we wouldn't be talking about this right now.

"if [completely different situation] we wouldn't be talking about [current situation]"
incredible

[vect0r]

Fair enough. As for your questions regarding what it would take to revert those changes you were you looking at, the answer would be not hard. In order to create a server while what you're thinking of, first you'd fork the most recent version of the /tg/ repo. Then, go to the PRS that made the changes you don't want, and you can look at the changes they made on Github and simply make PRs to your repo which do the opposite, ex. add the old code, remove the new code. Alternatively, just code the old functionality back in without referring to the old code if you feel confident enough, some of the smaller changes are extremely short line changes. Then, you'd set up a bot which automatically PRs pull requests merged to mainline /tg/ onto your downstream repo, where you decide to let them through on your own judgement, and you can simply choose not to merge code that has merge conflicts with your changes to makes changes to stuff that doesn't exist on your repo (ex. a change to progtots).

For example if I make a PR to revert this PR: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/63588
There will still be lots of merged PRs that build on 63588.
What happens to those "descendent" merged PRs? Does this have the potential to break the game later if enough of these orphaned PRs accumulate changes?
Do you have a link to an instructional resource about coding this bot that automatically pulls the tgstation PRs onto my downstream repo where I decide what to implement?

honestly instead of doing that I would cherry pick this one
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/85371

[FantasticFwoosh]

It's also not an inherently incorrect idea. If wallening had worked flawlessly from the start we wouldn't be talking about this right now.

Hitting you with a great big, nuh uh. Soul has been bleeding out of the game for like you say in the place of 'scenery' with a cross cut of being pushed out of the palette entirely. Changing Ian's sprite is unforgivable, period, id rather see him and HOP removed, at risk of sounding like a broken record.

Cherry picking is just difficult to do over resetting and making your own decisions, natively isolating commits from one place to another is a chore, like when i ported the mining bar to hippiestation by singling out the DMM commit-line from the identifying numerals and filling in the code myself. I could theoretically do that 2k times to /tg/ numero-dos but nobody has that level of patience over just taking it in a different direction.

[8bot]

Changing Ian's sprite is unforgivable

wait, what
surely you are jesting fwooshoid
no way they actually did that

[massa]

>le crazy

Let's talk about removing antags and content instead.

I quit playing specifically when they removed the gluttony syringe from the lavaland gluttony rune, and when I asked the maintainer in the coderbus if they were willing to merge any potential replacement items I was told that they wouldn't be willing to and were satisfied having lavaland random spawns not contain anything and to instead appreciate the scenery.

The gluttony rune is literally reused blob sprites... game design choices make me into a looney tunes character sometimes.

a bunch of fucking lame asses deleted the rewards from my ruin because muh balnc myh syndicattttteeeeeee

I hate the bitchification so fucking bad. bar rp is too valuable!!!!

[dirk_mcblade]

Fair enough. As for your questions regarding what it would take to revert those changes you were you looking at, the answer would be not hard. In order to create a server while what you're thinking of, first you'd fork the most recent version of the /tg/ repo. Then, go to the PRS that made the changes you don't want, and you can look at the changes they made on Github and simply make PRs to your repo which do the opposite, ex. add the old code, remove the new code. Alternatively, just code the old functionality back in without referring to the old code if you feel confident enough, some of the smaller changes are extremely short line changes. Then, you'd set up a bot which automatically PRs pull requests merged to mainline /tg/ onto your downstream repo, where you decide to let them through on your own judgement, and you can simply choose not to merge code that has merge conflicts with your changes to makes changes to stuff that doesn't exist on your repo (ex. a change to progtots).

For example if I make a PR to revert this PR: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/63588
There will still be lots of merged PRs that build on 63588.
What happens to those "descendent" merged PRs? Does this have the potential to break the game later if enough of these orphaned PRs accumulate changes?
Do you have a link to an instructional resource about coding this bot that automatically pulls the tgstation PRs onto my downstream repo where I decide what to implement?

honestly instead of doing that I would cherry pick this one
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/85371

Okay that's pretty good for the time locks but I want romerol back also. How do I do that when I don't see a single pr concerning putting romerol back in the purchase catalog?
My point still stands for this type of pr: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/64658
Lots of changes to heretics since then. What do I do if those merged PRs break heretics as a whole? I ultimately would rather disable heretics than have them do shadowrealm if it came down to it.

For reference here's a bunch of other PRs I want to remove so far:
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/55663
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/77169
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/66026
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/64280
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/80703

[NecromancerAnne]

It's also not an inherently incorrect idea. If wallening had worked flawlessly from the start we wouldn't be talking about this right now.

Hitting you with a great big, nuh uh. Soul has been bleeding out of the game for like you say in the place of 'scenery' with a cross cut of being pushed out of the palette entirely. Changing Ian's sprite is unforgivable, period, id rather see him and HOP removed, at risk of sounding like a broken record.

Cherry picking is just difficult to do over resetting and making your own decisions, natively isolating commits from one place to another is a chore, like when i ported the mining bar to hippiestation by singling out the DMM commit-line from the identifying numerals and filling in the code myself. I could theoretically do that 2k times to /tg/ numero-dos but nobody has that level of patience over just taking it in a different direction.

Not for nothing, but how many years ago was those sprites changed and these things you're mentioning took place? I can't find anywhere in the github as to when Ian's sprite was changed, was that a pre-2013 change?

[dirk_mcblade]

It's also not an inherently incorrect idea. If wallening had worked flawlessly from the start we wouldn't be talking about this right now.

Hitting you with a great big, nuh uh. Soul has been bleeding out of the game for like you say in the place of 'scenery' with a cross cut of being pushed out of the palette entirely. Changing Ian's sprite is unforgivable, period, id rather see him and HOP removed, at risk of sounding like a broken record.

Cherry picking is just difficult to do over resetting and making your own decisions, natively isolating commits from one place to another is a chore, like when i ported the mining bar to hippiestation by singling out the DMM commit-line from the identifying numerals and filling in the code myself. I could theoretically do that 2k times to /tg/ numero-dos but nobody has that level of patience over just taking it in a different direction.

Not for nothing, but how many years ago was those sprites changed and these things you're mentioning took place? I can't find anywhere in the github as to when Ian's sprite was changed, was that a pre-2013 change?

I didn't see this either, the closest I saw was an eyepatch if Ian were revived by surgery.

[TheFinalPotato]

It's also not an inherently incorrect idea. If wallening had worked flawlessly from the start we wouldn't be talking about this right now.

Hitting you with a great big, nuh uh. Soul has been bleeding out of the game for like you say in the place of 'scenery' with a cross cut of being pushed out of the palette entirely. Changing Ian's sprite is unforgivable, period, id rather see him and HOP removed, at risk of sounding like a broken record.

Cherry picking is just difficult to do over resetting and making your own decisions, natively isolating commits from one place to another is a chore, like when i ported the mining bar to hippiestation by singling out the DMM commit-line from the identifying numerals and filling in the code myself. I could theoretically do that 2k times to /tg/ numero-dos but nobody has that level of patience over just taking it in a different direction.

Not for nothing, but how many years ago was those sprites changed and these things you're mentioning took place? I can't find anywhere in the github as to when Ian's sprite was changed, was that a pre-2013 change?

I believe what fwoosh has done here is be wrong

[NecromancerAnne]

I asked goof about it and he couldn't name a particular instance that wasn't either just a suggestion, from maybe a different codebase or brief testmerge/admins meme'ing. Certainly no evidence on github but as he pointed out, we lost some PRs from our indexing. But anything he did name was in recent memory, and Ian hasn't changed in all the time Ive personally played, so I don't know if fwoosh is accurate at all.

[dirk_mcblade]

What particular PR is responsible for so many mid round antags spawning?
I've located the following suspects but I'm not sure what the correct revert would be
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/57175
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/67823
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/65997
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/56221

[Capsandi]

revert? bro ur trying too hard just drop a few 'prob(50) return' in there till its golden brown and delicious

[massa]

yeah please add romerol back

it required a unique sacrifice and interaction between tots and they are, literally, the most fun and rare rounds even with it in the game

[dirk_mcblade]

revert? bro ur trying too hard just drop a few 'prob(50) return' in there till its golden brown and delicious

Explain it to me like I'm an imbecile, where do I put in a bunch of 'prob(50) return'?
I don't know coding except for some VBA stuff but I will be trying to learn a minimal amount of this once I can make some further progress on just getting a virtualbox server up and running.

[TheFinalPotato]

What particular PR is responsible for so many mid round antags spawning?
I've located the following suspects but I'm not sure what the correct revert would be
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/57175
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/67823
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/65997
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/56221

antag rates are down to dynamic config, so that's the headmin's fault actually

[iwishforducks]

one thing i never understood was that dynamic shit is policy for some reason. why would it not be a coder thing? feels like coders should be the ones tweaking those values, not admins

[dirk_mcblade]

one thing i never understood was that dynamic shit is policy for some reason. why would it not be a coder thing? feels like coders should be the ones tweaking those values, not admins

I think he means it's not hard coded so every downstream server can tweak it themselves in the config.

[Timonk]

@Forum admin please close this thread it fucked my wife

[NecromancerAnne]

one thing i never understood was that dynamic shit is policy for some reason. why would it not be a coder thing? feels like coders should be the ones tweaking those values, not admins

I think he means it's not hard coded so every downstream server can tweak it themselves in the config.

This, and it was parity with the old system where the config had that same level of control. The expectation was that the coders were just providing the means, but administrators would handle the actual running of the game in practice, and control over values and probabilities for roles to enter the round is part of that.

Also I agree with Timonk, it fucked his wife, where is your compassion.

[dirk_mcblade]

one thing i never understood was that dynamic shit is policy for some reason. why would it not be a coder thing? feels like coders should be the ones tweaking those values, not admins

I think he means it's not hard coded so every downstream server can tweak it themselves in the config.

This, and it was parity with the old system where the config had that same level of control. The expectation was that the coders were just providing the means, but administrators would handle the actual running of the game in practice, and control over values and probabilities for roles to enter the round is part of that.

Also I agree with Timonk, it fucked his wife, where is your compassion.

Better his wife than mine I say keep it open.

[massa]

this is a wife fucker thread do not 1984 censor it

[Mimepride]

<snip>

Nothing to correct here really...Nothing you wrote was untrue per se. Sometimes I make claims that I'm more confident in than in others. In the case of the positive change one, it's the latter rather than the former. Maybe I've just been brainwashed into thinking that because the playerbase actually got a W after years of taking the L that things are improving. Technically we DID avoid a complete disaster, but not without casualties...I'm also not on the discord, so I can't speak to that(I know its the more active part of the community, but as an observer it's pretty obvious that it's a great place to get banned or have people dislike you even more--because you're very often responding to things instantaneously rather than a well-thought out forum post; also fuck discord).

Oranges not changing is not surprising--him not losing the ability to merge or close PRs is also not great(99% sure someone said this, either in this thread or another), as well as him remaining a maintainer. I never took his apology 100% seriously because, really--how much can a leopard change his spots after years of player disrespect? I mean, as you can see in this thread and elsewhere, you don't start being decent to people you've been awful to since forever overnight.

There's an important lesson in losing players like you for the people behind the wallening. As you said in the wallening thread, you were actually kind of excited to play the wallening--but the bad behavior and bad faith actions of the coders behind the change soured your enjoyment to the point where you no longer play tg anymore. There's really something to be said about that. And it made me sad because you're one of my favorite players. If you don't return, thanks for the memories.

You were/are a good player who added a lot to the game--and I have to ask: how many good players did we lose, not only because of the watermark event that was the wallening, but over the years of totally unwanted and unpopular changes, coupled with the mistreatment of players who offer negative feedback? Dozens, if not hundreds. For a niche game like this, we should be clamoring to get any players we can get. It's truly sad that so many higher ups in the coder hierarchy genuinely don't care at all whether people play the server or not, so long as they get to merge whatever changes they want without any oversight from anyone but their own peers(peers, who as I've said, don't properly regulate themselves or others).

One thing we can definitely agree on is that this community probably won't survive if things don't change for the better. It's already lost a lot of good players to other servers and other games--and yes, what Dean and you said is ultimately true. This is a game and none of it truly matters, we should focus on more pressing things in life...And yet, I remain dissatisfied.

There's no game if nobody plays. It's all just the dreams of a developer until people actually start playing and enjoying your game.

Also, Timonk:
NSFW

► Show Spoiler

Your profile picture doesn't look like a guy cumming; it looks like he's taking a shit. It's awful--now begone!

[iwishforducks]

https://superset.moth.fans/superset/das ... y-Players/

Holy. Shit.

[iwishforducks]

This is the lowest the 30-day average has ever been since mid-2017 (since the data has been collected)

Granted, this is in part due to the DDoS. But even then, we've had worse DDoSes and people still kept playing. (The dip in 2022-2023 is because of a DDoS, I believe.)
And also the wallening. But is that really an excuse?

We'll see what the actual recovery is after a full month. Remember, this is a 30-day average so the line still needs time to recover.

[FantasticFwoosh]

So which is it, incompetence or you pulled it?

[Jacquerel]

No idea where you got that sprite from (whatever downstream you actually play on? If you even play ss13 at all?) but it's not and hasn't to my knowledge ever been in use on ours

That isn't even the "Ian respite that was never PRed or merged" that I thought you might have been talking about

[massa]

This is the lowest the 30-day average has ever been since mid-2017 (since the data has been collected)

Granted, this is in part due to the DDoS. But even then, we've had worse DDoSes and people still kept playing. (The dip in 2022-2023 is because of a DDoS, I believe.)
And also the wallening. But is that really an excuse?

We'll see what the actual recovery is after a full month. Remember, this is a 30-day average so the line still needs time to recover.

each collapse corresponds to a gun or antag removed or Really Bad™ PR

[TheRex9001]

Im gonna plop this down in here, but would you guys play Sybil if something like viewtopic.php?f=33&t=37215 was implemented? I see mainly Sybil folks in here which is why Im asking

[8bot]

personally, no i wouldn't. the changes that soured me on the game (aside from my friends leaving) have little to do with pop. i've played lots and lots of lowpop rounds and had a blast with em, but the mechanical changes and policy decisions of the last year or two are what made me hang up my hat.

[iwishforducks]

each collapse corresponds to a gun or antag removed or Really Bad™ PR

big claims require big evidence

[datorangebottle]

Im gonna plop this down in here, but would you guys play Sybil if something like viewtopic.php?f=33&t=37215 was implemented? I see mainly Sybil folks in here which is why Im asking

I might show up depending on how i feel on a given day, what day/time it happens. i'm usually busy friday/saturday nights.
8bot's got a valid point, though. If nothing is changed then the players who left because of changes won't want to come back, and the players who left because of those people leaving would also stay gone.

[oranges]

I might be wrong, but the impression is quite palpable. Oranges is still calling the shots, even tho he isn't headcoder anymore, which given all things is pretty awful.

me controlling things from behind the scenes despite not being in any of the leadership positions (i just have that much rizz)

when are you going to grow up and stop using me as a boogeyman to self sooth that the vast majority of people who actually run things just either flat out don't share your opinions or dont care about you.

I'm not running around holding people's kids hostage as leverage or anything

[massa]

we just think you have not awesome takes about gameplay and you do have a lot of sway with the direction coders take tbqhwy

[FantasticFwoosh]

Oranges, have you thought about a career redirection towards musical theatre?

No idea where you got that sprite from ~snip~ but it's not and hasn't to my knowledge ever been in use on ours

That isn't even the "Ian respite that was never PRed or merged" that I thought you might have been talking about

To the point, wouldn't you agree there are some things that shouldn't be altered?

[dirk_mcblade]

This is the lowest the 30-day average has ever been since mid-2017 (since the data has been collected)

Granted, this is in part due to the DDoS. But even then, we've had worse DDoSes and people still kept playing. (The dip in 2022-2023 is because of a DDoS, I believe.)
And also the wallening. But is that really an excuse?

We'll see what the actual recovery is after a full month. Remember, this is a 30-day average so the line still needs time to recover.

It's not going to recover because the decline is entirely due to Sybil. If Sybil's numbers on the main page aren't back to normal that line isn't going up.

[dirk_mcblade]

Im gonna plop this down in here, but would you guys play Sybil if something like viewtopic.php?f=33&t=37215 was implemented? I see mainly Sybil folks in here which is why Im asking

Wouldn't hurt for you to try but where I'm at personally in life I can't do scheduled game sessions right now.

[massa]

i am going to merge cocaine from monkestation in order to heal the rift between our communities, MRP and LRP

i will need help from a fine coder. i already have vsc and have merged a map so we're not starting from 0.

we can heal.

[warbluke]

Im gonna plop this down in here, but would you guys play Sybil if something like viewtopic.php?f=33&t=37215 was implemented?

no

now if it was on Basil then we'd be talking

[vect0r]

I mean can't y'all host Sybil with blackjack and hookers? fork /tg/ and revert whatever changes you want to revert and have your fun time with your friends like Pepper and Axle?

Yes, but also no. There's a lot that goes into running a server even on a temporary basis, and you're kind of underselling it here.

I am not saying that it is not a lot of work, but I think that if you want to have reign on how the server works, you should host your own as a community. I mean Wallstation worked pretty well, didn't it? I'm not sure how this is coming off in text, but I really do not mean to be aggressive, I really do think that hosting Sybilstation would be a good thing for the community.

E: What changes would you like to see on a LRP only server codewise- not policywise.

Laundry list time because for me it's a series of small cuts rather than one or two major things although prog trait and heretic changes are pretty close.
Return the mosin nagant and get rid of the replacement guns for it.
Return the revolver to its original Smith & Wesson look.
Do not remove the combat shotgun for that new abomination.
Remove progressive traitors, but put a 15 minute delay to purchasing explosives.
Make heretic sacrifices dead instead of perpetually triggered.
Revert the decapitation change.
Return romerol to traitors.
Revert the various changes to the syndicate bomb.
Remove the system that makes traitors more and more likely to spawn mid game.
Make the unsecured disk spawning a lone nuclear operative a toggleable feature for a server (I have no idea if it is or not but it wouldn't be appropriate for all servers if it's a default feature. It's not appropriate for the first server I would realistically implement).
Revert the thief game mode such as stealing ID cards. That was fun.
Probably do not implement wallening.

Unless these changes are easy to implement it would be a massive timesink to do so, and that's why I hate the unnecessary changes to deck furniture like making guns stupid and worse. It seems like a poison pill you'd have to swallow if you want some of the modern features that are nice like the server menu GUI. Do I have to choose between that or stupid space bubba mosin nagants? In function it's a few developers putting in a bunch of small changes that are costly to remove if you don't like them.

Honestly I wouldn't even jump to a Sybil remake straightaway. I would start with a max 5 player server running a separate type of concept as that would be the only plausible option for a VPS budget and the larger SS13 servers cost $200/mo to run. I wouldn't spend money on that kind of server if I didn't think there'd be a playerbase to support it but I am willing to spend 5 euros a month on a server even if it's my own walled garden with no one visiting.

I am not saying that it is not a lot of work, but I think that if you want to have reign on how the server works, you should host your own as a community. I mean Wallstation worked pretty well, didn't it? I'm not sure how this is coming off in text, but I really do not mean to be aggressive, I really do think that hosting Sybilstation would be a good thing for the community.

I almost went for the "you were being aggressive" angle with my initial post, and after a few look-overs decided against it. I don't think you are, I just think "host your own server" is easy to dismiss as inflammatory/aggressive because of how it's been used in the past(in a 'if you don't like it, go play somewhere else), regardless of actual intent.

Regardless, it's kind of strange to me to have a group of people take a majority on a server, then make changes to that server's code that those players aren't interested in at all.

Sybil wasn't so much a community as a loose friend group with a mutual interest, and as far as I'm aware, we've scattered to the winds.

E: What changes would you like to see on a LRP only server codewise- not policywise.

► Show Spoiler

- Changeling transformation sting reverted to its permanent state. There are fun and creative shenanigans you can do besides turning everyone into [insert catgirl here].
- Revert heretic sacrifice to the version where it dropped all your organs on the ground instead of gibbing or teleporting you. Makes a different kind of mess, in a way that's useful to the heretic because it puts all the parts you need for recipes on the ground without you having to stab someone a billion times.
- Make shotguns baseline "useful" without tech shells (and don't remove them please, they're very cool, they would see use if they were worth carrying)
- Move a lot of less deadly/powerful emag interactions to EMP, the emag is way too overloaded and some shit doesn't make sense. (this is less a lrp-facing change and more just a constant issue i see with the code in general)
- Bring back Contractors, just timegate the bomb and desword to like 20 or 30 minutes. Maybe shift some of the cooler progtot objectives to Contractors.
- Bring back thieves(would require policy changes to make them less ass to actually play though)
- Bring back engine variety and being able to set up good alternate power sources.
- While we're at it, un-nerf the portable generators. I don't want engineers to be irrelevant, but I want to be able to play the game if they aren't doing their job.
- Increase melee weapon power so that more weapons are acceptable than batong, fireaxe, and antag weapons. The average crewmember should be a little more dangerous. I'd like to be able to go to knives/surgical tools as a gimmick and not get instantly dumpstered by a random person who killed beepsky roundstart.

I can't remember too many other code things that actually continue to bother me.

Well I have been putting it off, but today I decided to sit down and do it like I have promised and here is an example PR that does most of these changes: https://github.com/Vect0r2/Signia-Station/pull/16. The info about what changes have been made are inside the PR, but I think I got most of them. I get that not everyone can code but I also would like to say these changes didn't take a month, I sat down for around an hour to hammer them out. HOWEVER I will concede that a shitton of old progtot & heretic code is still around that I could not be bothered to remove for this proof- that will not effect any of the removals, but it does mean that there is quite a bit of deadcode in the game

[iwishforducks]

Well I have been putting it off, but today I decided to sit down and do it like I have promised and here is an example PR that does most of these changes: https://github.com/Vect0r2/Signia-Station/pull/16. The info about what changes have been made are inside the PR, but I think I got most of them. I get that not everyone can code but I also would like to say these changes didn't take a month, I sat down for around an hour to hammer them out. HOWEVER I will concede that a shitton of old progtot & heretic code is still around that I could not be bothered to remove for this proof- that will not effect any of the removals, but it does mean that there is quite a bit of deadcode in the game

okay. based.

[dirk_mcblade]

I've bookmarked the PR for review later if I get to the point of concocting my own fork.

[InternJohn]

Reasons I believe tanked Sybil:

- QC bans also taking the friends of the QC banned with them, reducing population far more than intended
- Weighted random and pop requirements for specific maps leading to death spirals of unpopular maps, which for the most part also have not changed
- Sybil admins are gone, current candidate system makes it hard to get new ones / Sybil's population doesn't want be admins for the most part or have been rejected
- Wallening
- Lack of interesting shake-ups to gameplay in quite a while, widespread public perception that coders don't care what LRP players want and will actively change the game to please MRP / spite LRP (gas mask fov was a big one)
- Low pop begets low pop
- No Manuel discord server equivalent to organize voices in order to get behind one banner to push for changes (I don't want a Sybilcord, but Manuelcord certainly does have its leverages)

Its also not like these people are gone either, because in the short duration Wallstation was up a lot of Sybil players were present. Its pretty clear to me Sybil players are actively waiting in the wings waiting for something to go their way for once, I don't think anything will. Ideally, server leadership opens up discussions with the Sybil playerbase and specifically the Sybil playerbase to air grievances and maybe we can find some compromise of sorts. Problem is, half of these issues are code-related, which is separated from the server and thus it would be a matter of convincing head-coders/maintainers to agree to make changes as well.

Can't speak for anyone, but personally I haven't played in a while because things got stale. Fun things kept getting nerfed, fun people kept getting banned and their fun friends left with them as you say. Coders are virtually unapproachable and seemingly just do what they want, making a lot of things that I enjoyed pointless. I was trying to work up the desire to play TG for a while now, but the discord ban has certainly sucked the air out of that.

Add to this the instability, the wallening, and everything ontop of it... dunno. Dunno if it will ever recover.

Well I have been putting it off, but today I decided to sit down and do it like I have promised and here is an example PR that does most of these changes: https://github.com/Vect0r2/Signia-Station/pull/16. The info about what changes have been made are inside the PR, but I think I got most of them. I get that not everyone can code but I also would like to say these changes didn't take a month, I sat down for around an hour to hammer them out. HOWEVER I will concede that a shitton of old progtot & heretic code is still around that I could not be bothered to remove for this proof- that will not effect any of the removals, but it does mean that there is quite a bit of deadcode in the game

This would certainly go a ways to bringing some people back I think. I personally enjoyed shotguns far more than lasers, even if they were worse. But recent pulls have made them completely useless. On top of that the snowflake tot shotgun magically being better despite using the same ammo (20% more damage, in addition to firing twice). I feel like sec would be more fun with more access to fun things, not just 'lasers becuz nanotrasen'

A lot of stuff needs a big look at, really. Chemistry is in a sorry state. Instead of being improved things just get removed. Virology and Xeno are in bad states, almost no one ever plays sec because at the best of times you're surrounded by new players because there are almost no old statics playing sec anymore, and at the worst of times you're lonesec against 10+ tots because there is no scaling.

[vect0r]

Reasons I believe tanked Sybil:

- QC bans also taking the friends of the QC banned with them, reducing population far more than intended
- Weighted random and pop requirements for specific maps leading to death spirals of unpopular maps, which for the most part also have not changed
- Sybil admins are gone, current candidate system makes it hard to get new ones / Sybil's population doesn't want be admins for the most part or have been rejected
- Wallening
- Lack of interesting shake-ups to gameplay in quite a while, widespread public perception that coders don't care what LRP players want and will actively change the game to please MRP / spite LRP (gas mask fov was a big one)
- Low pop begets low pop
- No Manuel discord server equivalent to organize voices in order to get behind one banner to push for changes (I don't want a Sybilcord, but Manuelcord certainly does have its leverages)

Its also not like these people are gone either, because in the short duration Wallstation was up a lot of Sybil players were present. Its pretty clear to me Sybil players are actively waiting in the wings waiting for something to go their way for once, I don't think anything will. Ideally, server leadership opens up discussions with the Sybil playerbase and specifically the Sybil playerbase to air grievances and maybe we can find some compromise of sorts. Problem is, half of these issues are code-related, which is separated from the server and thus it would be a matter of convincing head-coders/maintainers to agree to make changes as well.

Can't speak for anyone, but personally I haven't played in a while because things got stale. Fun things kept getting nerfed, fun people kept getting banned and their fun friends left with them as you say. Coders are virtually unapproachable and seemingly just do what they want, making a lot of things that I enjoyed pointless. I was trying to work up the desire to play TG for a while now, but the discord ban has certainly sucked the air out of that.

Add to this the instability, the wallening, and everything ontop of it... dunno. Dunno if it will ever recover.

Well I have been putting it off, but today I decided to sit down and do it like I have promised and here is an example PR that does most of these changes: https://github.com/Vect0r2/Signia-Station/pull/16. The info about what changes have been made are inside the PR, but I think I got most of them. I get that not everyone can code but I also would like to say these changes didn't take a month, I sat down for around an hour to hammer them out. HOWEVER I will concede that a shitton of old progtot & heretic code is still around that I could not be bothered to remove for this proof- that will not effect any of the removals, but it does mean that there is quite a bit of deadcode in the game

This would certainly go a ways to bringing some people back I think. I personally enjoyed shotguns far more than lasers, even if they were worse. But recent pulls have made them completely useless. On top of that the snowflake tot shotgun magically being better despite using the same ammo (20% more damage, in addition to firing twice). I feel like sec would be more fun with more access to fun things, not just 'lasers becuz nanotrasen'

A lot of stuff needs a big look at, really. Chemistry is in a sorry state. Instead of being improved things just get removed. Virology and Xeno are in bad states, almost no one ever plays sec because at the best of times you're surrounded by new players because there are almost no old statics playing sec anymore, and at the worst of times you're lonesec against 10+ tots because there is no scaling.

I just want to make sure you know but I have no interest in hosting a LRP server, I just used this as an example of how you could do it if you wanted to. If anybody has an interest in hosting a LRP server feel free to DM me & I can help you get github & (maybe) server stuff setup.

E: I don't think of myself as that unapproachable, but I guess I'm just not a real coder :p

[InternJohn]

E: I don't think of myself as that unapproachable, but I guess I'm just not a real coder :p

You're fine. Don't mean to offend, it just gets frustrating talking to some coders. The stubborn nature of TG code base has really held it back and damaged its player base in my opinion.

[dirk_mcblade]

Reasons I believe tanked Sybil:

- QC bans also taking the friends of the QC banned with them, reducing population far more than intended
- Weighted random and pop requirements for specific maps leading to death spirals of unpopular maps, which for the most part also have not changed
- Sybil admins are gone, current candidate system makes it hard to get new ones / Sybil's population doesn't want be admins for the most part or have been rejected
- Wallening
- Lack of interesting shake-ups to gameplay in quite a while, widespread public perception that coders don't care what LRP players want and will actively change the game to please MRP / spite LRP (gas mask fov was a big one)
- Low pop begets low pop
- No Manuel discord server equivalent to organize voices in order to get behind one banner to push for changes (I don't want a Sybilcord, but Manuelcord certainly does have its leverages)

Its also not like these people are gone either, because in the short duration Wallstation was up a lot of Sybil players were present. Its pretty clear to me Sybil players are actively waiting in the wings waiting for something to go their way for once, I don't think anything will. Ideally, server leadership opens up discussions with the Sybil playerbase and specifically the Sybil playerbase to air grievances and maybe we can find some compromise of sorts. Problem is, half of these issues are code-related, which is separated from the server and thus it would be a matter of convincing head-coders/maintainers to agree to make changes as well.

Can't speak for anyone, but personally I haven't played in a while because things got stale. Fun things kept getting nerfed, fun people kept getting banned and their fun friends left with them as you say. Coders are virtually unapproachable and seemingly just do what they want, making a lot of things that I enjoyed pointless. I was trying to work up the desire to play TG for a while now, but the discord ban has certainly sucked the air out of that.

Add to this the instability, the wallening, and everything ontop of it... dunno. Dunno if it will ever recover.

Well I have been putting it off, but today I decided to sit down and do it like I have promised and here is an example PR that does most of these changes: https://github.com/Vect0r2/Signia-Station/pull/16. The info about what changes have been made are inside the PR, but I think I got most of them. I get that not everyone can code but I also would like to say these changes didn't take a month, I sat down for around an hour to hammer them out. HOWEVER I will concede that a shitton of old progtot & heretic code is still around that I could not be bothered to remove for this proof- that will not effect any of the removals, but it does mean that there is quite a bit of deadcode in the game

This would certainly go a ways to bringing some people back I think. I personally enjoyed shotguns far more than lasers, even if they were worse. But recent pulls have made them completely useless. On top of that the snowflake tot shotgun magically being better despite using the same ammo (20% more damage, in addition to firing twice). I feel like sec would be more fun with more access to fun things, not just 'lasers becuz nanotrasen'

A lot of stuff needs a big look at, really. Chemistry is in a sorry state. Instead of being improved things just get removed. Virology and Xeno are in bad states, almost no one ever plays sec because at the best of times you're surrounded by new players because there are almost no old statics playing sec anymore, and at the worst of times you're lonesec against 10+ tots because there is no scaling.

I just want to make sure you know but I have no interest in hosting a LRP server, I just used this as an example of how you could do it if you wanted to. If anybody has an interest in hosting a LRP server feel free to DM me & I can help you get github & (maybe) server stuff setup.

E: I don't think of myself as that unapproachable, but I guess I'm just not a real coder :p

Honestly by putting these changes out there you make a good point that it's not only the code base but also the admin staff that are important for a server. Unfortunately in my case it's going to be months away if ever before I get any kind of server up and even then it's going to be a 5 player max server because anything more would be pricey. That's okay for my purposes because I'm okay with just learning how to do it, and I'd be happy with the end result of a skeleton crew server that I could just mess around in atmospherics with. But that means my overall plans, if I even carry them out, aren't going to offer any kind of replacement for what Sybil was.
Unless a team of competent LRP minded admins come together to pool resources and host a moderate capacity size server, or an effort is made to bring players back to Sybil, I don't see where the next good LRP server is going to come from since the overall trend in SS13 is towards MRP. I think now maybe the biggest problem with Sybil must have been the QC bans of popular players, and perhaps general rule creep. If those reasons aren't why the population crashed, then I have no ideas left as to why.

[vect0r]

Honestly by putting these changes out there you make a good point that it's not only the code base but also the admin staff that are important for a server. Unfortunately in my case it's going to be months away if ever before I get any kind of server up and even then it's going to be a 5 player max server because anything more would be pricey. That's okay for my purposes because I'm okay with just learning how to do it, and I'd be happy with the end result of a skeleton crew server that I could just mess around in atmospherics with. But that means my overall plans, if I even carry them out, aren't going to offer any kind of replacement for what Sybil was.
Unless a team of competent LRP minded admins come together to pool resources and host a moderate capacity size server, or an effort is made to bring players back to Sybil, I don't see where the next good LRP server is going to come from since the overall trend in SS13 is towards MRP. I think now maybe the biggest problem with Sybil must have been the QC bans of popular players, and perhaps general rule creep. If those reasons aren't why the population crashed, then I have no ideas left as to why.

Honestly it is a long shot, but if you do make a fork of tg, and change the LRP changes you want to make, you could ask MSO if you could host that codebase on Sybil for a week or two and see how it affects pop. I know we have a ton of LRP admins here on tg, and I am sure that some of them would love to admin for Sybil. Just a thought.

[iamgoofball]

It's also not an inherently incorrect idea. If wallening had worked flawlessly from the start we wouldn't be talking about this right now.

Hitting you with a great big, nuh uh. Soul has been bleeding out of the game for like you say in the place of 'scenery' with a cross cut of being pushed out of the palette entirely. Changing Ian's sprite is unforgivable, period, id rather see him and HOP removed, at risk of sounding like a broken record.

Cherry picking is just difficult to do over resetting and making your own decisions, natively isolating commits from one place to another is a chore, like when i ported the mining bar to hippiestation by singling out the DMM commit-line from the identifying numerals and filling in the code myself. I could theoretically do that 2k times to /tg/ numero-dos but nobody has that level of patience over just taking it in a different direction.

you haven't fucking played at /tg/ in like a decade, you're just crawling out of the wood-work because /tg/'s not doing so hot to try to twist the knife because you're a spiteful little shit who can't grow the fuck up

you're like, what, thirty? thirty-five? have a fucking mid-life crisis, go buy a sports car you can't afford, fuck off from the community because you clearly don't give a shit about it

So which is it, incompetence or you pulled it?

you have actual brain damage, seek a doctor

!	Message from: dendydoom
	100% of this post is an insult. at the minimum please couch your jabs inside an actual point. relax.