damn it's dead

[Itseasytosee2me]

Bottom post of the previous page:

~snip~

Right, sorry i read it as a defense.

[dirk_mcblade]

Given that programming resources are scarce wouldn't you want to test the player reception to new features before committing fully to implementing them and maintaining those features? I realize this cuts both ways since removing prog trait would be the "new" feature. Also I noticed there's this sort of culture where the coders regard the players as always hating changes even "good" ones and therefore their feedback isn't valuable. If that's the case then why do we care what the polls say when it comes likewise to removing them. Do the programmers like prog traitor? I guess they must.

[TheRex9001]

"The programmers" is just as vague as "the players", generally everyone likes different things, Im sure you'd find plenty of folks who dont like progtot and code. As to test merging for player reception, it works well on a smaller scale but is generally reserved to larger prs, if you test merge a bunch of small prs one of them might conflict with the other and you'd need to take it off test merge anyhow. I don't know this process though, Im not a keyholder and the one thing I wanted test merged I just pinged them and asked them to put it onto a server.

[NecromancerAnne]

~snip~

Right, sorry i read it as a defense.

It's fine

[Jacquerel]

In terms of "programming resources"; tgstation development has no programming resources. There is nobody who has the ability to say to anyone else "code this", it's entirely done by random people who see a thing and want to add, change, or remove it. And it's unpopular to say, but a majority of those urges are gained by people playing the game.
In terms of "wasting programmer resources" by the time it can be tested on the servers 90-100% of the work on a feature is already done so to the individual who coded it (remember, they're just an individual, nobody else told them to do it) it "not being merged" means that they already "wasted" that time and there is nothing to be "saved" by checking if people like it "first".
This doesn't and shouldn't mean that these changes need to be rejected sometimes anyway, just an explanation that this isn't really a measure we could take to save anyone any excess effort.

In terms of "why don't more things get testmerged for a while to get feedback" they probably should if they're big changes, you're right that it should probably happen more often if we're doing something large.

[kayozz]

How come all the 'features' are nerfs though? I understand nobody wants medbay to get bombed within seconds, but holy shit... almost all of the fun stuff of the last decade or so has been removed. Someone made a good list on the previous page and I was stunned at some of the things that had been removed. Like the 'ling nerfs, the bomb nerfs etc...

And in my experience on several servers, it seems coders tend to automatically disregard the opinions of regular players to the point of derision and sometimes insults. It's no wonder the players are getting angry/leaving, especially with the attitudes that come from some coders, i.e - 'if you don't like, it go code it yourself or 'put up and shut up, it's changed, deal with it'.

Honestly the game is slowly becoming a hug-box in some regards, because some coder no doubt is salty they got bombed or killed by a traitor or a 'ling one time and decided to nerf them.
At least that's the way it feels sometimes.

[Jacquerel]

I've been reading this topic but not replying basically the whole time because I have essentially interpreted this as a vent thread; you don't actually want this question answered right?
Like I could go through the changes that get merged and find a bunch of stuff that has been added, buffed, or improved, but do you actually want me to do that? My impression is no, but you are asking me directly. This is actually just something you want to say for rhetoric and I am not like, snubbing you by correctly reading it that way and not responding?

[kayozz]

I've been reading this topic but not replying basically the whole time because I have essentially interpreted this as a vent thread; you don't actually want this question answered right?
Like I could go through the changes that get merged and find a bunch of stuff that has been added, buffed, or improved, but do you actually want me to do that? My impression is no, but you are asking me directly. This is actually just something you want to say for rhetoric and I am not like, snubbing you by correctly reading it that way and not responding?

Sorry if I came across a little disingenuous.

Not aimed at you personally. But I genuinely do feel like there's a bit of a gulf between the coders and players. Players want one thing, coders dictate how it is and ignore the players and cut/nerf/change all the fun stuff that is the part of the heart of the game, without good reason. Both sides feel pissed off. Things get changed. People wonder why people leave the server.
People explain it's because of the silly changes, coders ignore the players or worse insult the players...

Repeat.

This is supposed to be a game of paranoia on a death trap station. But these days it feels like some people don't want their furry RP sessions disrupted by antags, so the coders who are part of that clique actively nerf the paranoia/death trap side of things.


I mean yeah people are probably venting, me included. But is it not justified when half the population has left to sunnier shores?

[datorangebottle]

Not aimed at you personally. But I genuinely do feel like there's a bit of a gulf between the coders and players. Players want one thing, coders dictate how it is and ignore the players and cut/nerf/change all the fun stuff that is the part of the heart of the game, without good reason. Both sides feel pissed off. Things get changed. People wonder why people leave the server.
People explain it's because of the silly changes, coders ignore the players or worse insult the players...

Repeat.

As a player who's active on github, players also direct a lot of venom towards the coders. It's a two-way street of bullshit interactions that nobody likes.

[Dusty Exaliber]

this Divided house is gonna split apart at some point of it coming down and I believe we are half way there at this point like I genuinely believe 2 to 3 year before all the collective cuts and dents finally cause it completely buckle in on it's self.

[dirk_mcblade]

In terms of "programming resources"; tgstation development has no programming resources. There is nobody who has the ability to say to anyone else "code this", it's entirely done by random people who see a thing and want to add, change, or remove it. And it's unpopular to say, but a majority of those urges are gained by people playing the game.
In terms of "wasting programmer resources" by the time it can be tested on the servers 90-100% of the work on a feature is already done so to the individual who coded it (remember, they're just an individual, nobody else told them to do it) it "not being merged" means that they already "wasted" that time and there is nothing to be "saved" by checking if people like it "first".

Could there perhaps be a system where before someone codes a change they could submit a player poll on the servers (e.g. "Should combat shotguns be removed and replaced with a different gun?" Or "Should changeling transformation stings be temporary?") and the coder can use that information to gauge demand for the change before moving forward on it? It doesn't have to be a veto proof majority in approval of it like OSRS or even a statistic with a required approval rate but it is perhaps a statistic that could be useful before investing the time on it and also included with the PR to gauge how controversial the change is. Seems like the process of changing the code including options to gauge interest as early as possible would be the best way to measure whether the coder and the player are on the same page before anyone invests time on it.

[datorangebottle]

I'm not certain coders would agree to any sort of non-coder oversight.
Plus, it's already pretty easy to tell how controversial a given PR is. If people care about the PR at all, there will be some number of reactions to it.

[dirk_mcblade]

I'm not certain coders would agree to any sort of non-coder oversight.
Plus, it's already pretty easy to tell how controversial a given PR is. If people care about the PR at all, there will be some number of reactions to it.

By the time it gets to the PR the time is already spent. I'm not proposing a system that is binding but rather it's a checkmark before submitting a gameplay related PR "Did you submit a player poll? What did the player poll results say?" It doesn't have to require a minimum approval rate.
Could be useful for the coder. Theoretically they ought to place value in knowing how much demand there is for a proposed change.

[massa]

It's a community driven project, some general standards or even guiding input is really all it takes, not a committee or more rules.

Stop removing content or pacifying the game experience. Stop with the ided PRs and maybe put more consideration into overt overhauls that dramatically change the fundamental experience before you code them for 90 hours. The last case is only really the one that, whoever merges shit should really be looking at. when i mapped we got plenty of nudges on the write up thingy.

even things that honestly suck ass or are dumb are fine, what more to say good or positive? no one bats an eye if someone adds a new toy item to dorms, or some weird ass fucking body suit that only admins can spawn in that spawns eggs with a hud button, or introduces monkey flaying content. it's overt unwanted upheavals in the face of big pushback, or lame changes. it's when we get walled or progged or have our mosins and 550s or romerol fucking removed it's like what the actual fuck. fun??

[Bdudy]

Sure the game's a little quiet nowadays. Let me tell you something ladies & gents. All you've got to do about this situation is not care too much about it - like not get to page 5 on a forum discussion on it. Why don't you go play something modern and 3D and all fancy like?

[massa]

we've hashed some useful things out in these 5 pages

[dirk_mcblade]

Sure the game's a little quiet nowadays. Let me tell you something ladies & gents. All you've got to do about this situation is not care too much about it - like not get to page 5 on a forum discussion on it. Why don't you go play something modern and 3D and all fancy like?

Matter of fact I went outside at least two times today.

[NecromancerAnne]

I made chili and some friends and I tried the oreo coke. It's like, eh?

[ItzRiumz]

I made chili and some friends and I tried the oreo coke. It's like, eh?

But have you tried the coke oreo yet?

[Indie-ana Jones]

You know, I do want to mention something about the coder side of things that I didn't prior, and that if there's anyone who's been doing some good changes in the interest of LRP and the game overall recently, its oranges. Some things of note:

- Got Birdshot removed temporarily, lit a fire under the arse of the mappers to get the map into a more acceptable position, even if its still not great its better than it was and it led to massive backlash by the mapping team (to be fair, they were ignoring the issues and are still attempting to do so by denying any problems exist from my perspective)
- Was very mature with regards to the Wallening and probably one of the better spokepeople from the team regarding everything that went down
- Recently merged taking chunky fingers off insulated gloves
- Currently pushing for a new map voting system to replace weighted random that seems much more fair and responsive to player's desires while not outright denying some maps from being played

[NecromancerAnne]

I made chili and some friends and I tried the oreo coke. It's like, eh?

But have you tried the coke oreo yet?

I have, it is not very good at all. Oreo coke tastes like oreo, with that mildish chocolate taste and bit of a cream aftertaste. But it has that artificial sweetener flavour of coke zero as well and the acidity of a carbonated beverage, so it really is fighting itself.

Coke oreos made me feel actually kind of sick. It didn't taste like coke, and in fact tasted like something was in it that shouldn't be. That chocolate flavour was not mixing at all with an almost citric flavour. Would not recommend.

[Mimepride]

I'll admit that oranges is on a bit of a redemption arc--but I find it hard to be lenient towards him because, as he readily admitted, he claims responsibility for the current culture of blatantly ignoring almost all and any player feedback; he even celebrated it in the past by saying something along the lines of "It's what we've done for years and its always worked". He was the poster child for this behavior--and as far as I'm concerned "actionable feedback" is just a buzzword used to ignore any and all feedback that doesn't reinforce the toxic positive feedback loop which got us here in the first place.

As for players being venomous to coders--obviously I don't condone people saying death threats or anything else that crosses a line, but I also WON'T take responsibility for it. Why? Because as opposed to the coderbase, the players have no "head players" which oversee and which are responsible for player conduct. The playerbase is totally amorphous and disunited, and doesn't approach anything close to a group or organization. The fact that the coderbase DOES have head coders who are the keyholders, final decision makers and etc., means that more collective responsibility can be applied when criticizing them. It's that simple really.

[massa]

I made chili and some friends and I tried the oreo coke. It's like, eh?

i liked it actually but i like 0 cal coke and i like oreos

it smelled like one which was fun, between that and a cream soda. i i see em imma get more

[massa]

You know, I do want to mention something about the coder side of things that I didn't prior, and that if there's anyone who's been doing some good changes in the interest of LRP and the game overall recently, its oranges. Some things of note:

- Got Birdshot removed temporarily, lit a fire under the arse of the mappers to get the map into a more acceptable position, even if its still not great its better than it was and it led to massive backlash by the mapping team (to be fair, they were ignoring the issues and are still attempting to do so by denying any problems exist from my perspective)
- Was very mature with regards to the Wallening and probably one of the better spokepeople from the team regarding everything that went down
- Recently merged taking chunky fingers off insulated gloves
- Currently pushing for a new map voting system to replace weighted random that seems much more fair and responsive to player's desires while not outright denying some maps from being played

- I literally remember coming here to these forums in 2017 to discuss the implications of how bad birdshart was back then. I think one room would legit depressurize. that anyone could defend that garbage. like half the shit was missing off it
- love
- I actually thought chunkies were a good change, but I like mixing it up honestly.
- please. nothing like just bad options. i'm a delta girlie.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Somebody starting from zero would take weeks or months to get to the point where you can get it done in one evening, and if they have other responsibilities they must prioritize, for example family situations or just work travel in general, then it's that much slower.
I'm not saying this to complain, I personally like learning this basic stuff so far since it's more about the process than the end result. But a big reason why you'd see people complaining rather than turning around something that fixes it could be that it will take them a long time to learn it. I also get why it'd be annoying to read them complain about it too, but you never know they might invest the time eventually.

Im also not interested in annoying somebody enough to sink money into DDOS'ing my private network even if open a server to friends because whatever replacement maintainers, made a superficial or substantial change in the spotlight of doing it for /tg/'s sake.

I'll admit that oranges is on a bit of a redemption arc--but I find it hard to be lenient towards him because, as he readily admitted, he claims responsibility for the current culture of blatantly ignoring almost all and any player feedback; he even celebrated it in the past by saying something along the lines of "It's what we've done for years and its always worked". He was the poster child for this behavior--and as far as I'm concerned "actionable feedback" is just a buzzword used to ignore any and all feedback that doesn't reinforce the toxic positive feedback loop which got us here in the first place.

The playerbase is totally amorphous and disunited, and doesn't approach anything close to a group or organization. The fact that the coderbase DOES have head coders who are the keyholders, final decision makers and etc., means that more collective responsibility can be applied when criticizing them. It's that simple really. -snip-

I've been released from my gitblock now that Oranges has been deposed, but i still don't want to contribute (aside from the technical and cultural landscape changing) because I probably would only end up in arguments again because communication is so one sided and at times snide in major overhauls versus community additions and interest like you put out. I can say regretfully In the past i really went too far with my pursuit over some trivial things but in the current climate very little is jubilantly celebrated.

On them themselves, i think they're already pretty much cancelled, i've not followed them but I don't think anybody will take them in if they don't repair their relationship with both halves of the community, a steep climb that might be worthwhile if they are sincere.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Imo, the coding subforum is so depreciated, nobody even opened a wallening thread to discuss it, the discord server put towards that purpose is totally suprised at its repealment, nobody joined it to realistically criticise it even when it failed and now it is soon to be discontinued.

[dirk_mcblade]

Somebody starting from zero would take weeks or months to get to the point where you can get it done in one evening, and if they have other responsibilities they must prioritize, for example family situations or just work travel in general, then it's that much slower.
I'm not saying this to complain, I personally like learning this basic stuff so far since it's more about the process than the end result. But a big reason why you'd see people complaining rather than turning around something that fixes it could be that it will take them a long time to learn it. I also get why it'd be annoying to read them complain about it too, but you never know they might invest the time eventually.

Im also not interested in annoying somebody enough to sink money into DDOS'ing my private network even if open a server to friends because whatever replacement maintainers, made a superficial or substantial change in the spotlight of doing it for /tg/'s sake.

Well you wouldn't run the server on your own private network. Not that I advocate you start a server, but that's one of the first things they say you shouldn't do when you research it, even if you don't reach that conclusion via common sense. In other words you need to put up $$$ to rent a server.

[vect0r]

Imo, the coding subforum is so depreciated, nobody even opened a wallening thread to discuss it, the discord server put towards that purpose is totally suprised at its repealment, nobody joined it to realistically criticise it even when it failed and now it is soon to be discontinued.

The coding feedback was in the players club.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Imo, the coding subforum is so depreciated, nobody even opened a wallening thread to discuss it, the discord server put towards that purpose is totally suprised at its repealment, nobody joined it to realistically criticise it even when it failed and now it is soon to be discontinued.

The coding feedback was in the players club.

Doesn't detract that the way we talk about these things has changed, codenut and sensible discussion code talk & pitch are two different things which shouldn't have happened only after things didn't go its way. Saying that, im still bitter about 3 chem reworks ages ago resulting in chemfactories, when simple or OGchems like tricord fit the criteria for a fun loop of patching up e-sword gouging.

[oranges]

fwoosh the last time you connected to our servers was 2023, so you'd be perfect as a coder since you're already so out of touch.

[8bot]

fwoosh the last time you connected to our servers was 2023, so you'd be perfect as a coder since you're already so out of touch.

i think the absolute dead state of the servers invalidates the "you are personally out of touch" argument
there's objectively a huge problem

[oranges]

i think you should boil yourself like spaghetti

[dirk_mcblade]

I gave monkestation a spin a few weeks back and it was pretty fun. Don't entirely like the consent based approach to round removal but it still had some space for random shenanigans and the population was healthy. I think it's done a good job growing the past two years. It definitely isn't LRP though, I feel like that's kind of extinct at the moment.

[8bot]

i think you should boil yourself like spaghetti

into the blender you go
a tasty refreshing breakfast beverage

[Mimepride]

I told you that the orange still deserves to be juiced, didn't I?

[RedBaronFlyer]

I gave monkestation a spin a few weeks back and it was pretty fun. Don't entirely like the consent based approach to round removal but it still had some space for random shenanigans and the population was healthy. I think it's done a good job growing the past two years. It definitely isn't LRP though, I feel like that's kind of extinct at the moment.

It's kind of insane how fast and explosively monkestation grew. It was typically like, 5-15 pop even during peak hours (at least EST hours) when the server host wasn't streaming but now it regularly reaches 60+ even when he isn't. I could have sworn even seven months ago it was deadpop when ook wasn't streaming.

As a non-lrp player, which I realize kind of invalidates a lot of my opinions, I did kind of notice that it seems like LRP has been something on the decline. Even when I started playing SS13 (late 2021-ish) I was already seeing the grumblings of LRP not being the primary focus on a lot of servers from long time players. For a while a sentiment I saw, which I don't know how valid it is tbh, was that sybil/terry were kind of the last beacons of LRP while everything else had increasingly come into the much more muddy ruleset of MRP and HRP.

[FantasticFwoosh]

fwoosh the last time you connected to our servers was 2023, so you'd be perfect as a coder since you're already so out of touch.

You've obviously tunnel-visioning and not been reading the thread, for me to stop regularly playing for 9 years happened, and then suddenly everyone else stops, you could put in your own words for a change.

i think you should boil yourself like spaghetti

into the blender you go
a tasty refreshing breakfast beverage

I told you that the orange still deserves to be juiced, didn't I?

Case in point. Mods, Juice him.

[dirk_mcblade]

I gave monkestation a spin a few weeks back and it was pretty fun. Don't entirely like the consent based approach to round removal but it still had some space for random shenanigans and the population was healthy. I think it's done a good job growing the past two years. It definitely isn't LRP though, I feel like that's kind of extinct at the moment.

It's kind of insane how fast and explosively monkestation grew. It was typically like, 5-15 pop even during peak hours (at least EST hours) when the server host wasn't streaming but now it regularly reaches 60+ even when he isn't. I could have sworn even seven months ago it was deadpop when ook wasn't streaming.

As a non-lrp player, which I realize kind of invalidates a lot of my opinions, I did kind of notice that it seems like LRP has been something on the decline. Even when I started playing SS13 (late 2021-ish) I was already seeing the grumblings of LRP not being the primary focus on a lot of servers from long time players. For a while a sentiment I saw, which I don't know how valid it is tbh, was that sybil/terry were kind of the last beacons of LRP while everything else had increasingly come into the much more muddy ruleset of MRP and HRP.

Some of my most entertaining rounds have been MRP but in general I like LRP, it's like hardball whereas MRP is softball if that makes sense. LRP will make you a better player but individual rounds can go terribly, whereas with MRP you can be terrible at the game but get gratification more easily.
I think ultimately people hate anarchy and that's why LRP doesn't have any supply. I think servers get bogged down with rules over time and rules favor MRP more. Also seems like LRP players would be the least likely to pay into a Patreon which is also essential for a server to actually grow.
I'm happy overall that monkestation carved out a good niche for itself so far.

[massa]

I think ultimately people hate anarchy

excuse me sir i love anarchy

[dirk_mcblade]

I think ultimately people hate anarchy

excuse me sir i love anarchy

Make a server about it then

[Bdudy]

we've hashed some useful things out in these 5 pages

Really? Like what? I think you should consider how much better spent your time is elsewhere. You ever really take a look at the people who play this game?

[bastardblaster]

my mango

[ItzRiumz]

Is to blow up

[8bot]

I think ultimately people hate anarchy

excuse me sir i love anarchy

Make a server about it then

we had one
it was murdered

[massa]

we've hashed some useful things out in these 5 pages

Really? Like what? I think you should consider how much better spent your time is elsewhere. You ever really take a look at the people who play this game?

after this many years, honestly, some are cuties

[dirk_mcblade]

I think ultimately people hate anarchy

excuse me sir i love anarchy

Make a server about it then

we had one
it was murdered

Clearly another case of authoritarian capitalism killing an anarchist socialist server (socialist because Sybil players don't pay for the Patreon). I get all of my worldwide analysis from a 2d chart because I'm very smart.

[bastardblaster]

Is to blow up

and act like i dont know nobody aaggagagaggaga !!!!!

[vect0r]

I think ultimately people hate anarchy

excuse me sir i love anarchy

Make a server about it then

we had one
it was murdered

Yeah the evil tg admins took it behind the shed and shot it to death smh.

[Shadowflame909]

>le crazy

Let's talk about removing antags and content instead.

I quit playing specifically when they removed the gluttony syringe from the lavaland gluttony rune, and when I asked the maintainer in the coderbus if they were willing to merge any potential replacement items I was told that they wouldn't be willing to and were satisfied having lavaland random spawns not contain anything and to instead appreciate the scenery.

The gluttony rune is literally reused blob sprites... game design choices make me into a looney tunes character sometimes.

[dirk_mcblade]

>le crazy

Let's talk about removing antags and content instead.

I quit playing specifically when they removed the gluttony syringe from the lavaland gluttony rune, and when I asked the maintainer in the coderbus if they were willing to merge any potential replacement items I was told that they wouldn't be willing to and were satisfied having lavaland random spawns not contain anything and to instead appreciate the scenery.

The gluttony rune is literally reused blob sprites... game design choices make me into a looney tunes character sometimes.

The idea that ss13 can or should be scenic is what got the wallening going.

[datorangebottle]

It's also not an inherently incorrect idea. If wallening had worked flawlessly from the start we wouldn't be talking about this right now.