Enforce Human Authority: 0

[britgrenadier1]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Kinda curious where we are at on this. It's a topic that has been done to death, but after taking a peak through resolved topics there hasn't been an official "I want this to be changed" policy thread made. So here we are, I want this to be changed. Specifically the config option, I don't care about expanding which jobs can or cannot be non human. This isn't a "I want a code solution" thread.

Expanding the pool of available head players is a net positive for the quality of the role, and I think it would extend the length of rounds if we let competent non human statics into head roles. A lot of people cite muh lore as a reason to keep this set to 1, however our current lore says jack and shit about what species are meant to be in what roles. Old lore did, I vaguely remember there being a tidbit about lizards being heads until people on earth complained and it being rescinded afterwards.

I also don't think that there are more interesting stories that happen out of being promoted. You either get a flat yes or no with nothing that happens afterwards unless the actual head shows up. Also can't we flip this and ask about all the stories that aren't being told when there just straight up isn't a head of staff around? You'll still have promotion stories too, even nonhuman ones, its not as though these stories won't happen if we flip it on.

Turn it on for a bit, see how it goes, config stuff changes like the tide and I say we run with it for a while.

[dendydoom]

Also QMs are allowed to be nonhuman for a couple of reasons:

1. Nepotism (It's not a long story but it's not an interesting one)
2. Because it adds a very distinct flavor to QM. Not everything needs to be consistent. Revel in the consistent inconsistency.

QMs are allowed to be non-human....................................... BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT A HEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[britgrenadier1]

It's bad for the vibe and flavor but also I have more CMO hours as moth than most people do as CMO. Some of the most memorable rounds from that would not be possible if it was just a roundstart. I have stories including from just today about being denied access, or real CMOs showing up and clashing/cooperating, etc. I think this is a bad idea and nonhumans who want to be heads should be more willing to use the tool the game provides to you to do this very thing--it creates roleplay on its own.

Big snip

If you can't imagine good stories coming from this process then you need to get more imaginative.

I’m on mobile and at work so pray for me if that snip didn’t work. You have just described the one outcome and Avenue for conflict I was talking about: the original head showing up. It’s a reputation check all the way down. If your static has the brand recognition to have people revolt for you then it’s fun, if you’re new or on a random name then you don’t.

All that being said, you know what the wonderful part about that argument is? It’s that being promoted and fighting over the position will still happen, if not more, if this change goes through. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is stopping you from rolling MD and getting promoted and going through that entire story and struggle. It might happen less because there will be more roundstart heads, but I don’t think you or anyone else will take the position that “We need less head of staff players so that we can have more promotion stories.” Swapping this config option does not inhibit or prohibit these stories one bit, it just opens the door for new ones to be told.

If you need gameplay enforced species restrictions to imagine these stories, then you need to get more imaginative.

[britgrenadier1]

Oh, and double post because it’s my thread and fuck it: you had best believe my non human ass is demoting any acting head the second I walk into my department. I’m gonna create that conflict and throw hands just as much as any human head

[Striders13]

make qm human only instead

[dendydoom]

make qm human only instead

>enters thread
>drops the best take possible
>swoops away into the night hooting and looking for mice

[datorangebottle]

honestly, after QM, just turn off human authority.
I like human authority, but QM being the ONLY nonhuman head bothers me immensely from a consistency standpoint. It should be all or nothing.
I look forward to the moth captain/CE/RD bruteforcing its way into the upload to install crewsimov every round.

[Jacquerel]

I think that being inconsistent is good

[Higgin]

I think that being inconsistent is good

ooooOOOOOooooo no you don't oooOOOOOOOooooo

but seriously

wrt the nature of most promotion-interested conflict being a rep check (and one that doesn't necessarily care about species, or would happen anyway,) that's been my experience too

you really don't need human authority to have massive drama around command, and even if the starting conditions might reflect a bias toward humans, the resolution absolutely reflects your bias towards the nonhuman head and their "usurper".

That builds up over time - which, while it might be satisfying to have earned, creates an inertia in your favor. Most of the people latejoining against that probably don't know what they're getting into and took an open slot rather than joining explicitly for "race drama over rightful command"

The more Mothblocks gets promoted to CMO, the less dramatic that becomes. It's more interesting that human staff might use an Asimov AI against them than any fight over an internal racism to which other crew might not even subscribe.

If you want this to generate better drama with interested participants, we should add an option to mark head roles as "filled - acting" so folks can decide whether or not to bother trying to wrest it from whoever instead of having their expectations damned.

wrt this whole topic, I'm ambivalent.

I think it is thematically interesting.

I don't think we really do much with it because a lot of people are fairly just playing the game. So it matters a lot more with Asimov than anything else.

I think it does create a certain flavor being restricted, but it's not dramatized by people who necessarily care about human authority.

A poll might be worth running on this.

[Higgin]

make qm human only instead

>enters thread
>drops the best take possible
>swoops away into the night hooting and looking for mice

owls really do be doing this though


I think QM being the only non-human head can be made to make sense if you think about it a bit. The primary focus of the stations seems to be extraction and exports. The places where tension over race relations could therefore most disrupt the station from its purpose would seem to be cargo. Non-human QMs dilute that, at least rhetorically, while still keeping non-humans less represented in station command overall.

There's probably still some nepo babies upset over non-humans displacing good human QMs with finance degrees who would be otherwise doing stonks, maybe that's where our head interns come from instead.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I think QM being the only non-human head can be made to make sense if you think about it a bit. The primary focus of the stations seems to be extraction and exports.

Ah, no, SS13 is a research station actually.

[Critawakets]

I think this is something a headmin team should just do for like 1-2 weeks and see if there's even any noticeable differences or problems.

[kinnebian]

dont you fucking dare

[Higgin]

I think QM being the only non-human head can be made to make sense if you think about it a bit. The primary focus of the stations seems to be extraction and exports.

Ah, no, SS13 is a research station actually.

I know that's what we've been saying, and you might call it a concession to the mechanics having their limits, but most of the stuff that actually looks like research takes place totally outside the research department and goes nowhere except the heads of the mad eggheads who do it (and use it to mess with their coworkers in interesting ways.)

It makes more sense to think of it as extractive and productive when there's a bounty market for mechs, viruses, exotic plasma-based gases, etc.

Even if we call it a "research station," most of what it does (except sociologically, which is a fun way to think about all the dumb and dangerous shit that goes on) is settled, concrete science - which doesn't need research, just application.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Looks like another reason that common core is stupid and completely ignored by everyone other than food coders, it has shit like this hidden in it for the "Ha ha admins dont bother changing off their static when running event" gag.

"The lore is sacred and that's why we can't do this thing that would create better and more interesting stories!"

"Actually, the lore says this."

"W-WELL THE LORE IS STUPID AND NOBODY CARES ABOUT IT IN THIS ROLEPLAYING GAME!!!"

This thread is a rollercoaster.

when did Dorsidarf say the first thing? I couldn't find it

personally it is very hard for me to believe that reducing the amount of code-enforced speciesism would increase the quality of specieisism roleplay, I suspect that most players upon being able to have a Felinid Captain would parse this as "it doesn't functionally or mechanically matter very much at this point"

I was just talking about the thread as a whole honestly, but I can see where the confusion comes from, that's on me.

[Bmon]

turn it off and switch the AI to crewsimov

[Mothblocks]

You have just described the one outcome and Avenue for conflict I was talking about: the original head showing up. It’s a reputation check all the way down. If your static has the brand recognition to have people revolt for you then it’s fun, if you’re new or on a random name then you don’t.

I didn't. Getting into kerfuffles with security does not involve the real head showing up.

Nothing, and I mean nothing, is stopping you from rolling MD and getting promoted and going through that entire story and struggle.

The extrinsic difference is obvious--you know this because you're making the thread.

[Jacquerel]

I was just talking about the thread as a whole honestly, but I can see where the confusion comes from, that's on me.

ok well no offence but if you were posting "it seems like people in this thread hold multiple opinions and some of them disagree with each other" that is like... barely more insightful than posting absolutely nothing at all
its actually not weird or unusual for one person to say "the lore is important", a second person to say "actually the lore says x", and a third unrelated person to say "this is why I don't like the lore" and there is no actual link between the first and third statements because different people said them

[Itseasytosee2me]

turn it off and switch the AI to crewsimov

evil coded (no offence)

[CMDR_Gungnir]

I was just talking about the thread as a whole honestly, but I can see where the confusion comes from, that's on me.

ok well no offence but if you were posting "it seems like people in this thread hold multiple opinions and some of them disagree with each other" that is like... barely more insightful than posting absolutely nothing at all
its actually not weird or unusual for one person to say "the lore is important", a second person to say "actually the lore says x", and a third unrelated person to say "this is why I don't like the lore" and there is no actual link between the first and third statements because different people said them

Sure, if it was just that.

But Dorsi literally said "completely ignored by everyone other than food coders".

In the thread full of people screeching that the Lore is sacred and must be protected and that's why we can't have non-human heads.

Which is very funny.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I was just talking about the thread as a whole honestly, but I can see where the confusion comes from, that's on me.

ok well no offence but if you were posting "it seems like people in this thread hold multiple opinions and some of them disagree with each other" that is like... barely more insightful than posting absolutely nothing at all
its actually not weird or unusual for one person to say "the lore is important", a second person to say "actually the lore says x", and a third unrelated person to say "this is why I don't like the lore" and there is no actual link between the first and third statements because different people said them

Sure, if it was just that.

But Dorsi literally said "completely ignored by everyone other than food coders".

In the thread full of people screeching that the Lore is sacred and must be protected and that's why we can't have non-human heads.

Which is very funny.

Common Core isnt the point at which we got lore, common core is a recent attempt to (at its heart) just nail down the floating bits of lore that have been around forever and trying to make it something canonical and concrete that the lore guys can actually work off of. Which has benefits and downsides.

[Drag]

I'm sorry but since when did we give a shit about lore?

[kinnebian]

Why does it even have to be lore?
I think that working as an underpayed employee for an elitist, speciest company is fun flavour and theming. It enhances the setting greatly, and offers cool roleplay.

I'm sorry but since when did we give a shit about lore?

Im sorry but since when was "Who cares lol" an argument? This doesnt add anything constructive or even an opinion.

[dendydoom]

i don't particularly care about written lore that does nothing but fluff up and add some depth to what already exists but we're playing a roleplaying game and the manifestation of the setting affecting how we play is an undeniably important aspect of the game.

as an example, we know there are factions: we know there's NT, we know who the syndicate are, we know that they are diametrically opposed and so the very basic root of conflict in the game is between these two factions. this manifests itself in how we approach the game and how conflicts occur and how stories are told in countless ways. this to me is "lore." it's the handshake between the setting and the game mechanics to create the full RP experience that we participate in.

[cSeal]

Looks like another reason that common core is stupid and completely ignored by everyone other than food coders

Hey man EFF YOU common core is soulful and has cool ideas that have been used for way more than just food code

[DATAxPUNGED]

make qm human only instead

>enters thread
>drops the best take possible
>swoops away into the night hooting and looking for mice

owls really do be doing this though


I think QM being the only non-human head can be made to make sense if you think about it a bit. The primary focus of the stations seems to be extraction and exports. The places where tension over race relations could therefore most disrupt the station from its purpose would seem to be cargo. Non-human QMs dilute that, at least rhetorically, while still keeping non-humans less represented in station command overall.

There's probably still some nepo babies upset over non-humans displacing good human QMs with finance degrees who would be otherwise doing stonks, maybe that's where our head interns come from instead.

QM is allowed to be non-human because it wasn't a head for the longest time, and It'd be bad for NT rep to fire a bunch of QMs just because it now officially counts as command

[RedBaronFlyer]

I like the idea of ingame speciesism but, in my experience, it's just 99.9% "We don't serve Liggers 'round here" type stuff. There's fair arguments about issues with asimov but I don't buy the "muh TGeee loooore" as a good reason when a seemingly solid majority of players (at least on Manuel) don't really acknowledge species unless they're about to call a lizard a taildragger or the AI decides to doorshock non-humans (then gets boinked at the speed of light). I find the lore argument shallow since it's not like people follow through with flavor text for their antag role or flavor text with their traitor employer anyways. I play cargo a ton, and the QM has allowed non-humans ever since it became a headrole, you wanna know what's changed? Basically nothing. Granted, this is on Manuel. Once in a blue moon an AI will just ignore the QM's orders but that's about it.

I'd be in favor of at least turning it off for manuel. Now, I recall an argument against specifically that being "shouldn't Manuel keep it because of lore/rp reasons?" and I'd argue, no. At least on manuel the server culture towards species is pretty cosmopolitan.

I fail to see how this would kill interspecies conflict or interspecies discrimination or whatever. This wouldn't stop you from being discriminatory towards non-humans. It's not like lizard players (or any other species) aren't discriminatory towards humans/other species due to lizards not being able to be a head of staff.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

[snip]
Sure, if it was just that.

But Dorsi literally said "completely ignored by everyone other than food coders".

In the thread full of people screeching that the Lore is sacred and must be protected and that's why we can't have non-human heads.

Which is very funny.

Common Core isnt the point at which we got lore, common core is a recent attempt to (at its heart) just nail down the floating bits of lore that have been around forever and trying to make it something canonical and concrete that the lore guys can actually work off of. Which has benefits and downsides.

Sure. But it's also the MOST of the lore. The rest is just "Nanotrasen exists, the Syndicate exists, the Wizard Federation exists".

But even without Common Core, I think the argument that "NT WOULDN'T HIRE NON-HUMAN HEADS BECAUSE THEY'RE SPECIESIST PRICKS" is utterly batshit insane and completely nonsensical.

The consistent portrayal of Nanotrasen, both in Common Core and in the rest of the Lore, is a dystopian corporation. They don't give two shits, as long as they can make a profit.

They ARE Speciesist, and they ARE Human Supremacists, and that's why non-humans get paid less. So why, in god's name, would they NOT want to hire the people they only pay 75% or less to, in the positions that have a higher salary, if the entity in question has the skill to do the job?

Frankly, at this point, NOT having non-human Heads of Staff is more of a lore violation than having them.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

The "consistent portrayal of NT" IMO was always "Stupid evil corporation" that murder their employees with deathsqauddies called Sergeant SUPERKILL for mild disrespect to such a degree that "The syndicate are the good guys" was not even a particularly controversial lore opinion. The station has always been portrayed as a worthless pointless metal deathtrap that researches nothing of value and we've only shrunk the "research" aspect of the research station over time. Saying "But the cartoon evil corporation run by bigots allowing their bigotry to result in a very, very slightly suboptimal theoretical profit is failRP" just seems dumb and reaching to me.

[Itseasytosee2me]

all the best lore is canonized by in game interactions. Otherwise its hard to see it as more than a wierdly in specific style guide

[dendydoom]

The "consistent portrayal of NT" IMO was always "Stupid evil corporation" that murder their employees with deathsqauddies called Sergeant SUPERKILL for mild disrespect to such a degree that "The syndicate are the good guys" was not even a particularly controversial lore opinion. The station has always been portrayed as a worthless pointless metal deathtrap that researches nothing of value and we've only shrunk the "research" aspect of the research station over time. Saying "But the cartoon evil corporation run by bigots allowing their bigotry to result in a very, very slightly suboptimal theoretical profit is failRP" just seems dumb and reaching to me.

i like the idea of NT's decisions not making sense because it shares DNA with one of the cornerstones of ss13's style: the ttrpg paranoia. in that game every rank at every level of society is managed by people who are secretly traitors and crazed ideologues themselves to the point of absurdity. they will slip quotes from their manifestos in with HR memos designed to hypnotize you into joining the cause. the balance of power is maintained by them trying to out each other as disloyal.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

The "consistent portrayal of NT" IMO was always "Stupid evil corporation" that murder their employees with deathsqauddies called Sergeant SUPERKILL for mild disrespect to such a degree that "The syndicate are the good guys" was not even a particularly controversial lore opinion. The station has always been portrayed as a worthless pointless metal deathtrap that researches nothing of value and we've only shrunk the "research" aspect of the research station over time. Saying "But the cartoon evil corporation run by bigots allowing their bigotry to result in a very, very slightly suboptimal theoretical profit is failRP" just seems dumb and reaching to me.

Then why would they care whether or not non-humans can be members of Command?

No matter what point of lore people point at, the answer will always say "ok but doesn't that just make more sense why they'd let non-humans be head of staff?"

The only possible outcome that wouldn't would be "they don't trust anyone who isn't human to do the job right" at which point; why do you have non-human doctors? do you want them operating on humans? Non-human security? That lizard is probably an agent of his homeworld here to get revenge and help it return to its "former glory", do you really want to give him a gun?

etc etc

[Redrover1760]

The other thing people are gonna say is 'but muh soul, human supremacy is cool and lorepilled!" but honestly I don't think 'human supremacy' is all that fun or interesting RP-wise like >90% of the time, not to mention all the times it's just hijacked by actual racists who want to say the n word with one letter changed anyways.

Bullying the moth captain for being a moth is pretty funny and a great way to invite some ic conflict. Having nonhumans be forced to nonhead roles actually makes less speciesism conflict as they don't really have much you can do. Moth cap then gets security to arrest the guy for disrespecting him. Centcom shows up with an intern to investigate and try to soft protect the speciesist human. Free conflict.

[kinnebian]

The "consistent portrayal of NT" IMO was always "Stupid evil corporation" that murder their employees with deathsqauddies called Sergeant SUPERKILL for mild disrespect to such a degree that "The syndicate are the good guys" was not even a particularly controversial lore opinion. The station has always been portrayed as a worthless pointless metal deathtrap that researches nothing of value and we've only shrunk the "research" aspect of the research station over time. Saying "But the cartoon evil corporation run by bigots allowing their bigotry to result in a very, very slightly suboptimal theoretical profit is failRP" just seems dumb and reaching to me.

Then why would they care whether or not non-humans can be members of Command?

No matter what point of lore people point at, the answer will always say "ok but doesn't that just make more sense why they'd let non-humans be head of staff?"

The only possible outcome that wouldn't would be "they don't trust anyone who isn't human to do the job right" at which point; why do you have non-human doctors? do you want them operating on humans? Non-human security? That lizard is probably an agent of his homeworld here to get revenge and help it return to its "former glory", do you really want to give him a gun?

etc etc

because speciesm cannot be logical?
theres no logical reason for bigotry, its part of its nature

the higher ups at cc will sit and drink their planet crackers while talking how to avoid the taildraggers getting seats on their councils because they are evil bastards and thats part of the setting

[britgrenadier1]

The "consistent portrayal of NT" IMO was always "Stupid evil corporation" that murder their employees with deathsqauddies called Sergeant SUPERKILL for mild disrespect to such a degree that "The syndicate are the good guys" was not even a particularly controversial lore opinion. The station has always been portrayed as a worthless pointless metal deathtrap that researches nothing of value and we've only shrunk the "research" aspect of the research station over time. Saying "But the cartoon evil corporation run by bigots allowing their bigotry to result in a very, very slightly suboptimal theoretical profit is failRP" just seems dumb and reaching to me.

i like the idea of NT's decisions not making sense because it shares DNA with one of the cornerstones of ss13's style: the ttrpg paranoia. in that game every rank at every level of society is managed by people who are secretly traitors and crazed ideologues themselves to the point of absurdity. they will slip quotes from their manifestos in with HR memos designed to hypnotize you into joining the cause. the balance of power is maintained by them trying to out each other as disloyal.

Could not disagree more. Part of the fun and immersion of the setting is the believability of the mundane parts that makes the fantastical and wacky parts more believable. It’s sci-fi, not fantasy. Sergeant murderkill is acceptable because we’re working for a smart and conniving evil megacorp, not a bumbling and stupid one. The former vibe is just so much better for telling stories.

Lore aside nobody has really addressed the fact that more heads is just good for the game, or the fact that speciesism rp is only going to be improved by having heads be non human. There’s lots of good stories to be told.

[Itseasytosee2me]

The "consistent portrayal of NT" IMO was always "Stupid evil corporation" that murder their employees with deathsqauddies called Sergeant SUPERKILL for mild disrespect to such a degree that "The syndicate are the good guys" was not even a particularly controversial lore opinion. The station has always been portrayed as a worthless pointless metal deathtrap that researches nothing of value and we've only shrunk the "research" aspect of the research station over time. Saying "But the cartoon evil corporation run by bigots allowing their bigotry to result in a very, very slightly suboptimal theoretical profit is failRP" just seems dumb and reaching to me.

Then why would they care whether or not non-humans can be members of Command?

No matter what point of lore people point at, the answer will always say "ok but doesn't that just make more sense why they'd let non-humans be head of staff?"

The only possible outcome that wouldn't would be "they don't trust anyone who isn't human to do the job right" at which point; why do you have non-human doctors? do you want them operating on humans? Non-human security? That lizard is probably an agent of his homeworld here to get revenge and help it return to its "former glory", do you really want to give him a gun?

etc etc

because speciesm cannot be logical?
theres no logical reason for bigotry, its part of its nature

the higher ups at cc will sit and drink their planet crackers while talking how to avoid the taildraggers getting seats on their councils because they are evil bastards and thats part of the setting

Nanotrasen could definitely be upholding a xenophobic agenda. There are tons of political reasons why authorities create and uphold the oppression of minorities beyond illogical bigotry. They might fear foreign influence from non-human governing bodies if they hire enough xenos into powerful positions, and their are probably ethical and cultural differences that would want to make the human controlled nanotrasen resistant to xeno ideas.

I personally never saw the restriction of head of staffs as "they are not allowed because we hate them and we are racist" and more so, "We need to maintain human authority in order to uphold our own power and ideas, and we don't care if we have to foster a culture of discrimination to get it done." Both are evil, one is the your batshit uncle, and the other is the FBI from the 1920's.

[Super Aggro Crag]

If we remove everything that separates the humans from the nonhumans then what will be the nonhumans excuse for filling up an entire workplace with their metagang and refusing to interact with human players? Will the possibility of a Tiziran RD mean lizards will stop being randomly griefy and then scaletide when someone slaps their shit for it? Will a moth HOS mean they'll stop smashing all my plates when I serve a meat-based meal prior to a cheese plate? I can not even imagine a tgstation where there is no one making jokes about "eating monkeysss" or swarming into a giant ball to scream anime cat noises at each other.

[Higgin]

If we remove everything that separates the humans from the nonhumans then what will be the nonhumans excuse for filling up an entire workplace with their metagang and refusing to interact with human players? Will the possibility of a Tiziran RD mean lizards will stop being randomly griefy and then scaletide when someone slaps their shit for it? Will a moth HOS mean they'll stop smashing all my plates when I serve a meat-based meal prior to a cheese plate? I can not even imagine a tgstation where there is no one making jokes about "eating monkeysss" or swarming into a giant ball to scream anime cat noises at each other.

don't worry that'll still happen, less functional distinctiveness doesn't mean people stop distinguishing with their groups if they're attached to them

[cSeal]

we’re working for a smart and conniving evil megacorp, not a bumbling and stupid one

This is fan fiction

Lore aside nobody has really addressed the fact that more heads is just good for the game, or the fact that speciesism rp is only going to be improved by having heads be non human. There’s lots of good stories to be told.

Thats because these arent facts, theyre points of preference, opinion, and personal experience. I prefer to commiserate with my fellow nonhumans over the nepotism of the humies as the station goes to shit. you prefer to struggle against a speciest crew trying to depose you. Neither is better, but one is the standard here and many people play here in part because (presumably) thats their preference, and its (presumably) the preference of the people in charge and has been for some time. Maybe a poll could convince them otherwise, but trying to make some logical argument for or against it is fruitless because it really is just a matter of taste

They ARE Speciesist, and they ARE Human Supremacists, and that's why non-humans get paid less. So why, in god's name, would they NOT want to hire the people they only pay 75% or less to, in the positions that have a higher salary, if the entity in question has the skill to do the job?

Because head roles are in a distinct position of superiority and command on the station. Theyre The Bosses. The cream of the crop. It would be controversial to put someone from a group historically treated as a second class into a position like that. There'd be media coverage and outrage, discontent from the people usually held in preference, potentially even violence. A pr disaster that could cost heaps more than theyd save on paying 25 percent less to a few select elite crewmembers. Not to mention even if nt is a giant megacorp, it still has vital points of fallible illogical human contact and command
Ultimately though, it doesnt matter. we could sit here writing walls of text at each other justifying it one way or another with hypothetical lore, but lore is in service to the game, not the other way around. Nonhumans cant be heads because at one point we decided that was good, and there hasnt been a big enough push from a big enough portion of the community to change that

[Higgin]

Lore aside nobody has really addressed the fact that more heads is just good for the game, or the fact that speciesism rp is only going to be improved by having heads be non human. There’s lots of good stories to be told.

It's hard to tell a story about anything like this in a tight 90, but removing the setting-suggested speciesism would make it more of a character trait if you were to express it.

At the same time, if like Dendy said, we want the 'lore' to be stuff that actually matters and is felt in play, not fluff, then the current restrictions do that. You have to choose to be anti-speciesist, in effect. That's very much a story too, and one that MB brought up can have a lot of drama involved (though like all stories, you eventually get tired of hearing the same one on repeat, every round you want to be CMO, potentially.)

"But if you give people no reason to be speciesist, will they be speciesist?" is sort of what this gets at to me. Embodying the speciesism in the setting gives people something to grab on to and decide "is my character in step with this, or do they reject it? How do they feel about it?" It's permission and part of having people have speciesist characters beyond "their metagangs are obnoxious" or "just don't like'em" is having it in some way embodied where decisions around species matter. The current setup satisfies that.

I agree that it is pretty dumb on lore/believability, but like you said - setting that aside.

More heads don't necessarily make the game better. The way they are right now - they can be antags, they're mostly job+ in terms of actual power - makes them swingier than regular crew (they can have a bigger impact.) They come with access and batons which can be used, abused, or stolen. Having more heads in the round enables more movement, but it disperses the responsibility for that movement more widely (solo command HoS acting cap vs. a full command staff, for instance.)

Playing as a member of the crew, you don't necessarily lose out if none of that is there. You don't necessarily benefit from your department having a head that will kill you or go off on one and do some dumb shit. You shouldn't really expect anything from heads, because as designed, you reliably can't. That goes both ways with heads and their staff too.

In my experience, Manny is pretty cosmopolitan already, like RBF said, so nonhuman heads and crewsimov wouldn't change the vibe as much as it might elsewhere. Silicons are also pretty well-restrained even when they've got a free leash to kill or fuck with nonhumans - potentially more than they should be - in a way that would make crewsimov an easy move too (which you wouldn't have to do with this change, but I think would be pretty natural. All the law hijinks are still possible around 'crew' rather than 'human.')

Most of the loss then is just on people who want to play heads but also want to play their distinctive characters and currently can't. I think that alone is enough to warrant doing it or giving it a try.

[xzero314]

I had an idea for this but it I am no coder so it might not be feasible.

Allow Non human heads. HOWEVER. Make it so Human heads are prioritized when deciding on acting captain.

I think this would allow for many hilarious roleplay situations.

Imagine a full roster of heads at shift start except the Captain, ALL of them are nonhuman except the Qm "Qm is acting Captain" Or another one. All the heads are non human but there is a human warden "The warden is acting Captain"

This would allow for non human heads, allow for the NT specism to still exist "FINE You can be a head of staff role BUT..." AND has the possibility to create unique round scenarios with a messed up chain of command.

[Redbert]

snip

because speciesm cannot be logical?
theres no logical reason for bigotry, its part of its nature

the higher ups at cc will sit and drink their planet crackers while talking how to avoid the taildraggers getting seats on their councils because they are evil bastards and thats part of the setting

CC high command has non-humans, it's in the lore

[kinnebian]

snip

because speciesm cannot be logical?
theres no logical reason for bigotry, its part of its nature

the higher ups at cc will sit and drink their planet crackers while talking how to avoid the taildraggers getting seats on their councils because they are evil bastards and thats part of the setting

CC high command has non-humans, it's in the lore

In what lore? Where?

Do you get my point? Having human only head positions isnt affected by lore. It isnt lore, its a part of the setting. And changing that setting is a purely subjective decision but one that i feel that a larger portion of our players are comfortable with as it is, and one I would be sad to see go .

[britgrenadier1]

This is fan fiction

Thats because these arent facts, theyre points of preference, opinion, and personal experience. I prefer to commiserate with my fellow nonhumans over the nepotism of the humies as the station goes to shit. you prefer to struggle against a speciest crew trying to depose you. Neither is better, but one is the standard here and many people play here in part because (presumably) thats their preference, and its (presumably) the preference of the people in charge and has been for some time. Maybe a poll could convince them otherwise, but trying to make some logical argument for or against it is fruitless because it really is just a matter of taste

Because head roles are in a distinct position of superiority and command on the station. Theyre The Bosses. The cream of the crop. It would be controversial to put someone from a group historically treated as a second class into a position like that. There'd be media coverage and outrage, discontent from the people usually held in preference, potentially even violence. A pr disaster that could cost heaps more than theyd save on paying 25 percent less to a few select elite crewmembers. Not to mention even if nt is a giant megacorp, it still has vital points of fallible illogical human contact and command
Ultimately though, it doesnt matter. we could sit here writing walls of text at each other justifying it one way or another with hypothetical lore, but lore is in service to the game, not the other way around. Nonhumans cant be heads because at one point we decided that was good, and there hasnt been a big enough push from a big enough portion of the community to change that

Lots of snips

I'd argue the other side of the competent/incompetent NT coin is just as much of a fan fiction. The only difference is that they obviously have to be atleast somewhat savvy to have been the monopoly they are described as being.

More heads being good for the game is about as factual of an opinion as you can have unless you're going to take the position that its good to have job vacancies sometimes. Which isn't a fair characterization of your argument mind you, but it is the logical conclusion of following that thread. As an aside there is absolutely nothing stopping you from commiserating with your fellow non-humans. Pay gap, asimov (Which I wouldnt want changed), non digitigrade clothing, hell you could probably still get away with saying "NT has a preference for humans." even if this goes through. It may be a matter of taste, but its one in which I think a lot of people on my side of the fence feel strongly about, and their gameplay experience can be improved with really only minor changes to the experience of people on the opposite side of the argument.

Lol and lmao at that last paragraph though. There'd be no media outrage, there'd be no coverage at all whatsofucking ever. This is a secret research station that gets deathsquads sent to it to cover up catastrophies. I fully expect non human heads to vanish in the middle of the night and be replaced by human counterparts when outside inspection teams get sent to the station. Hell that could be a fun story, some news team is showing up and quick hide all the non human heads before the secret leaks that NT's most expensive research station is run by lizardpeople. Saying that we had it one way once and that's how it should stay is the exact opposite of how TG has been run since forever. I don't even have to start listing all of the code and policy changes that have passed. I say its time to tell new stories, experiment a little, and play around with the idea.

[Noe]

Fun should come before any other reason.

The people who want non-human heads enabled are asking so because they want to have fun.
It is fun to play heads of staff on occasion, and similarly some players find it very fun to play their favorite- and likely non-human- character.
No lore, nor balance, nor anything should come so stiffly between letting people have fun in a game.

I can sympathize with some of the points, but they should never supersede players having fun.
If people want a story about promotion, then they will pursue so on their own volition instead of being forced into it.
If people want a mechanical implementation of the lore, then find ways to do so that promote fun instead.

The players aren't their species, they just think that being an alien race is cool.
Why punish that.

[Redbert]

snip

In what lore? Where?

Do you get my point? Having human only head positions isnt affected by lore. It isnt lore, its a part of the setting. And changing that setting is a purely subjective decision but one that i feel that a larger portion of our players are comfortable with as it is, and one I would be sad to see go .

"For the many faults that can be levied against NT's management of the Spinward Periphery, its command structure and management selection are remarkably egalitarian. The execs and officers of the first waves of personnel sent to the Spinward Periphery were more than willing to lead from the front and become personally involved in dangerous work when needed, and when it came time to select their successors, they chose from the crewmembers they led in the field. Under intense pressure to deliver from both the corporate offices back home and their colleagues on the Periphery, plus extremely high personnel turnover, traditional barriers to advancement such as ethnicity, gender, and even species took a back seat to credentials and experience in the field. Indeed, while non-humans are still barred from serving as station-side Heads of Staff, as well as being excluded from basic protections in the standard silicon lawsets, every species of humanoid is currently represented in the staff of the higher Spinward Central Command. This isn't to say that things are perfectly egalitarian- discrimination still occurs, and there's still a strict chain of command- but the CentCom staff are generally sympathetic to the crewmembers they administrate and remember their own time in the field when balancing"

more reading here.
https://github.com/tgstation/common_core

Lore and setting are so closely related that the words are almost interchangeable. Regardless, nothing in the lore other than head canon really benefits either side of the argument. Non-humans allowed in central command but non-humans are not allowed as heads on station is a bit of a contradiction.

Yes, this change absolutely does slightly hinder your ability to play as a believable bigot. I just don't think this outweighs the potential new stories and opportunities for non-human statics. Let them be revolution targets, let them be bullied by humans abusing AI lawset, let them have their round start gamer loot, let them cook.

I want to see a non-human RD get absolutely blasted by the AI for trying to change their lawset at roundstart

[Itseasytosee2me]

Fun should come before any other reason.

The people who want non-human heads enabled are asking so because they want to have fun.
It is fun to play heads of staff on occasion, and similarly some players find it very fun to play their favorite- and likely non-human- character.
No lore, nor balance, nor anything should come so stiffly between letting people have fun in a game.

I can sympathize with some of the points, but they should never supersede players having fun.
If people want a story about promotion, then they will pursue so on their own volition instead of being forced into it.
If people want a mechanical implementation of the lore, then find ways to do so that promote fun instead.

The players aren't their species, they just think that being an alien race is cool.
Why punish that.

Its less fun for me because of what I personally value in this game. I could tell you what I value, and why I value it, but it probably wouldn't change your view because you seem to value different stuff.

[cSeal]

It may be a matter of taste, but its one in which I think a lot of people on my side of the fence feel strongly about, and their gameplay experience can be improved with really only minor changes to the experience of people on the opposite side of the argument.

They could experience head gameplay with a minor change on their end too, its called making a human static, and id get some more variety in the station roster round to round in the bargain.
I think youd be surprised how many people on the other side of things feel strongly that removing human authority would kill the kind of vibe they like. Hell, people are here arguing with you over it arent they?

Lol and lmao at that last paragraph though. There'd be no media outrage, there'd be no coverage at all whatsofucking ever. This is a secret research station that gets deathsquads sent to it to cover up catastrophies.

Sure man, ill grant you that, but this still ignores that changes in the social status quo like this would cause ripples among the crew that's stationed there and potentially cause insubordination issues and even possibly a revolt

Saying that we had it one way once and that's how it should stay is the exact opposite of how TG has been run since forever. I don't even have to start listing all of the code and policy changes that have passed. I say its time to tell new stories, experiment a little, and play around with the idea

I am not opposed to change as a whole, but i have been opposed to changes that run counter to my ideal play style and experience, I believe this is one of those proposed changes and so ill oppose it. it really is as simple as that. My point wasnt that i didnt like it so it shouldnt ever be changed, it was that i dont think the zeitgeist of the server has changed enough for it to really be considered. Maybe my experiences have skewed my perception, but i really feel like most people- or at least an appreciable majority -like things as they are and wouldnt be interested in this. Which is why i think this would be more productive as a poll rather than a policy thread

[cSeal]

The players aren't their species, they just think that being an alien race is cool.
Why punish that.

If you view restrictions and downsides as anti fun and some kind of punishment I believe you're looking at this game wrong im ngl

[Mothblocks]

at some point you need to understand the head admins are very lazily skimming through all these lore posts

[Redbert]

at some point you need to understand the head admins are very lazily skimming through all these lore posts

huh?

[Mothblocks]

my point is that as detailed as all the lore discussion is i'm not actually sure it's beneficial to either party here because i don't see head admins being as invested as you guys are in it, other than on surface level. not going to post more about this because i don't want to derail the thread but worth keeping in mind your target audience here