Saying "X is bad", "Cult in x" and other lazy callouts should be considered a rule 12, metacomm, and ock ick violation.

[Turbonerd]

There's this trend I have been seeing for a long time where if someone finds out someone is an antag, they just say "X is X antag", or even worse, "X is bad" in comms. Now everyone knows that person is an antag because they know traitors are valid, and they know "bad" means "valid". There's literally 0 RP in this, and is using metaknowledge as people know "bad" = valid. The intent in these callouts is purely a play to win playstyle, as they only care about the status of the antag being an antag rather than what they have done.

I think people should put more effort into saying what an antag has done, such as saying "X tried to kill me" after they escaped from the antag, rather than speedrunning "; X bad" before they die.

People saying "revs", "cult", and similar stuff with no other context on comms is also bad for similar reasons. People know that there is a conversion antag in a round due to a single word, and need no other knowledge other than where their base are or who is X. I think rounds would benefit if people at the bare minimum didn't use slang like "revs" and "cult" (cult would be okay if it's not in its own in my opinion, but it doesn't make much sense if "cult" is the only thing you said), and would instead say stuff like "There is a revolution", "People are planning a mutiny", "Weird people in maintenance are drawing runes with their blood!", "There appears to be some blood cult going on".

[Pandarsenic]

I'm not super against "CULT ENGINEERING" type callouts

"REVS IN MEDICAL" is just as easily "FLASHING IN MEDICAL," but I don't totally hate it.

";X IS BAD" sucks shit. I despise using "bad" as a euphemism for "antag" or "valid."

Will we end up in a perpetual whack-a-mole for new euphemisms if we ban it? Yes.

Am I okay with that? Absolutely.

";bartender bad" callouts are hitting NRP levels. What ever happened to ";Bartender killing me" and the like? Are the extra words really that much of a burden?

[bastardblaster]

I'm not super against "CULT ENGINEERING" type callouts

"REVS IN MEDICAL" is just as easily "FLASHING IN MEDICAL," but I don't totally hate it.

";X IS BAD" sucks shit. I despise using "bad" as a euphemism for "antag" or "valid."

Will we end up in a perpetual whack-a-mole for new euphemisms if we ban it? Yes.

Am I okay with that? Absolutely.

";bartender bad" callouts are hitting NRP levels. What ever happened to ";Bartender killing me" and the like? Are the extra words really that much of a burden?

if you choose the option with more words you're not optimizing your antag horizontal Speedrun, or worse, you might die before getting the call out, and LOSE (unfathomable tragedy)

[chocolate_bickie]

You can't speak and move in SS13 as you can in real life, shortening your speech is just a product of mechanical limitations. That is, speaking is not something you can do while fighting and or fleeing.

People say ''X is bad'' because any decent antag has a plan to drop you into crit stat so you can't call them out over comms. Most players only get out 'help' before they drop off suit sensors forever. Also it's not like 'X is bad' is actionable. If someone valids you over a single comms message without further evidence just ahelp. You can't kill antags without actual evidence they are antags.

RP means acting like a real person. I think if a terrorist started chasing you with a machete and you ran into some police you would also say something along the lines of 'Help!' and 'He has a machete!'

[Tearling]

";bartender bad" callouts are hitting NRP levels. What ever happened to ";Bartender killing me" and the like? Are the extra words really that much of a burden?

If I ever got bwoinked for saying something like "Mime bad" when they're killing me I would be more inclined to never leave my department. Extra words ARE a burden when 0.2 seconds is the difference between getting hit an extra time in combat.

[Vekter]

My question is, what the fuck is wrong with saying "[x] tried to flash me" or "[y] is acting suspicious"? Christ.

I think if a terrorist started chasing you with a machete and you ran into some police you would also say something along the lines of 'Help!' and 'He has a machete!'

This is a different situation and (at least personally) I wouldn't fault someone for doing the above if it's a situation where they're being chased/aggressed.

[Turbonerd]

";bartender bad" callouts are hitting NRP levels. What ever happened to ";Bartender killing me" and the like? Are the extra words really that much of a burden?

If I ever got bwoinked for saying something like "Mime bad" when they're killing me I would be more inclined to never leave my department. Extra words ARE a burden when 0.2 seconds is the difference between getting hit an extra time in combat.

If you are in a dire situation, it would make more sense to ask for help in comms such as "; Help!", or even scream "; screams*". Concerned paramedics and security could locate and help you if your suit sensors are maxed, so not only is it more RP friendly, but it's quicker to type. Saying "; Mime bad" when you are close to dying doesn't make sense, as it appears you care more about crew revenging for you than your own survival. Could you explain to me why notifying everyone that someone is bad is more important to you than your own survival? Could you also explain to me how crew would understand "X bad" means that X is a threat to the station and they work for the Syndicate or some other enemy of NanoTrasen?

If someone was chasing you with a machete in real life, then you would just scream for help for your survival and run away, instead of trying to justify that they are bad and must be killed. If you made it out alive, got revived, or had time, then you could explain the situation in more detail.

If you don't have enough time to explain a situation without abbreviations, then I think you should focus more on letting crew know you are in danger than notifying that X is bad.

[Pandarsenic]

I'm just imagining a horror film dubbed over so someone yells "JASON BAD" as they're getting stabbed instead of normal screaming stuff.

[datorangebottle]

There's this trend I have been seeing for a long time where if someone finds out someone is an antag, they just say "X is X antag", or even worse, "X is bad" in comms. Now everyone knows that person is an antag because they know traitors are valid, and they know "bad" means "valid". There's literally 0 RP in this, and is using metaknowledge as people know "bad" = valid. The intent in these callouts is purely a play to win playstyle, as they only care about the status of the antag being an antag rather than what they have done.

I really don't see how 'x is bad' is worse than 'x is antag'. Antagonist is literally an OOC term. Bad is too vague to instantly mean 'valid' and if you get killed by a validhunter because someone said you were bad, it's probably ahelpable. It could mean anything from 'X is beating me up for justified reasons but I want him to suffer' to 'X is literally arming the nuke RIGHT NOW'.

I think people should put more effort into saying what an antag has done, such as saying "X tried to kill me" after they escaped from the antag, rather than speedrunning "; X bad" before they die.

Unfortunately, it's often not possible to escape from an antagonist due to painslow and their ambush advantage. Then you get round removed and nobody knows where you are. The game you joined to play for fun is now over, often for over thirty minutes without being able to do anything, just sitting there as a ghost watching other people enjoy themselves. Simply getting the callout is more likely to get you found, and if not, you can at least get some post-mortem vengeance on some guy who tried to kill you even though you weren't an objective or in the way of his objectives.

People saying "revs", "cult", and similar stuff with no other context on comms is also bad for similar reasons. People know that there is a conversion antag in a round due to a single word, and need no other knowledge other than where their base are or who is X. I think rounds would benefit if people at the bare minimum didn't use slang like "revs" and "cult" (cult would be okay if it's not in its own in my opinion, but it doesn't make much sense if "cult" is the only thing you said), and would instead say stuff like "There is a revolution", "People are planning a mutiny", "Weird people in maintenance are drawing runes with their blood!", "There appears to be some blood cult going on".

How is 'cult' slang? Revs I see, but cult? There are so many ways to use that term in-character that counting 'cult' as slang is baffling.
I'd like to add that LRP players didn't sign up to play on an HRP server where you have to pretend that every round is your first shift ever seeing an antagonist type. "There's a cult in aft maintenance!" is perfectly acceptable. Hell, even "Cult!" is fine. What else are you supposed to call a group of people in robes, drawing runes in their own blood, and sacrificing others to their dark gods?

Will we end up in a perpetual whack-a-mole for new euphemisms if we ban it? Yes.

Am I okay with that? Absolutely.

";bartender bad" callouts are hitting NRP levels. What ever happened to ";Bartender killing me" and the like? Are the extra words really that much of a burden?

I'm in a bad situation, hang on, let me pull out the guidebook for what I can/can't say on the radio to tell people that the person murdering me is evil.

The thing about radio callouts is that they're inherently unreliable; while they give security clues on who to bring in and search, it's much harder for validhunters to act on them unless they catch the person in the act. For all they know, it's the malfunctioning AI, comms agent, changeling, or funny traitor with the voice changer that made the callout using a dead person's voice.
TL;DR: people need to get better at making up excuses instead of restricting peoples' ability to rat them out while getting murdered using OOC policies.

[Domitius]

In situations where somebody is caught or manages to make a break for a moment of freedom short callouts is all they can muster and in my mind reminds me of people who are out of breath yet manage to force the only words that matter out as quick as possible.

Are more intricate RP callouts desirable? For sure! Would it be fun and realistic to expect victims just trying to share information to take a moment to think before they are gone? Not at all.

I don't believe setting a higher expectation for callouts would be a fun change and I also don't believe it would appreciably raise the RP of any server.

[Tearling]

it would make more sense to ask for help in comms such as "; Help!", or even scream "; screams*". Concerned paramedics and security could locate and help you if your suit sensors are maxed, so not only is it more RP friendly, but it's quicker to type. Saying "; Mime bad" when you are close to dying doesn't make sense

... and what if your suit sensors aren't maxed? Yelling "Help!" over comms is comical because there's that's going to be followed with "Where?" and then with "What's going on?" Even if your suit sensors are on there's no definite chance that the paramedic on duty knows what they're doing, or is listening to comms.
Saying "(Person) bad" solves that problem and tells everyone exactly who to look for to find you, and given there's a good chance your body is going somewhere into maint, it makes sense you'd want them to find your killer. What doesn't make sense is to yell "HELP!!" over comms, because, come on, yelling "HELP!!" over comms will not do anything. The best most concise way is by saying "(Person) bad (location)" though, but we're starting to get into too long to send territory.

[cacogen]

No. Eat shit. People should be able to call out antagonists when they see them. If you don't want people to *announce you're an antag over comms, then suck less. It's far less common nowadays than what it used to be (I guess because newer players have been cucked by newer admins into believing they're no longer allowed to fight tooth and nail to survive), and it's often the only means of survival for the non-antagonists in the situation.

if you choose the option with more words you're not optimizing your antag horizontal Speedrun, or worse, you might die before getting the call out, and LOSE (unfathomable tragedy)

What the fuck?

[BrianBackslide]

Not everyone types at lightning speed. Seeing as there's no way to type while moving, and definitely no voice chat, how do you propose you call for help while trying to get away/request backup? Unless, of course, you want to massively slow down combat. Sometimes you only get a second before you go down to some OP combo.

[XivilaiAnaxes]

"ah kind sir could you stop batoning me for a second, I need time to write up an acceptable call for help over the radio"

Typing directly stops you performing any other action no shit people don't write up an essay while they're in combat. It's not like you literally freeze in place like a statue every time you open your mouth to talk to someone like an oblivion npc.

[CDranzer]

I would absolutely accept this if there was a more practical way to announce a threat without getting yourself killed.

[nianjiilical]

counterargument: seeing a full ascended heretic breaking the veil between realities and summoning the unfathomable power of an eldritch entity and screaming "johnson bad" about it is funny

[sinfulbliss]

This is a super interesting thread, in one sense you're totally right. Saying "X bad" is not something someone would ever say if they're roleplaying a spaceman getting mugged while doing his duties. It implicitly smuggles in metainformation about the round in a uniquely OOC way. This is perfectly okay on LRP, though, just as an engineer is allowed to know how to make meth, and a seccie is allowed to know the names of complex cult spells and runes. Metaknowledge is okay and expressing it, whether it's through "slurs" or shorthand, has always been okay. It only becomes excessive when it breaches the OOC barrier really blatantly, like "antag" would.

It's a massive stretch to say that this sort of speech is "playing-to-win," though. Rule 12 wasn't intended to enforce RP standards like roleplay rule 9, it was intended to prevent the most egregious types of powergaming and metagaming. Headrev flash and cult stunhand mutes the victim for a reason. They are supposed to play candidly, if someone calls them out that's on them.

There's sort of a spin-off tangent that's more problematic though. A simple "X is a traitor" lie can give security probable cause to random search that person. Random searches aren't permitted because it's not fair for antagonists - you could argue getting falsely or even randomly accused of being bad shouldn't be allowed, because it gives sec reason to randomsearch and will fuck actual antags over. It will also fuck over nonantags who resist the arrest and subsequently get their rounds ruined by sec. Enforcing this though would be a nightmare for admins and probably it's just something to cope with.

[YBS]

I think this take is fine on MRP. MRP should have a decent amount of rule 12 policing going on.

Expecting this on LRP will start a whackamole trash fire even if its slapped on the MOTD in eye-breaking red.

[datorangebottle]

There's sort of a spin-off tangent that's more problematic though. A simple "X is a traitor" lie can give security probable cause to random search that person. Random searches aren't permitted because it's not fair for antagonists - you could argue getting falsely or even randomly accused of being bad shouldn't be allowed, because it gives sec reason to randomsearch and will fuck actual antags over. It will also fuck over nonantags who resist the arrest and subsequently get their rounds ruined by sec. Enforcing this though would be a nightmare for admins and probably it's just something to cope with.

I don't think this is actually as much of a problem as you're making it out to be.
Security is supposed to rely on crime scenes and witness testimony for evidence to search someone, yeah?
Calling someone out on the radio is saying, "I saw someone attacking someone else." or "I saw someone doing something a traitor would do." etc.
This gives Sec probable cause to, bare minimum, question or search them. This makes it not a random search.
Lying about someone's traitor status on the radio is risking them actually being an antagonist and ruining their round, and I'd argue this comes close to breaking rule one.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

I think this take is fine on MRP. MRP should have a decent amount of rule 12 policing going on.

Expecting this on LRP will start a whackamole trash fire even if its slapped on the MOTD in eye-breaking red.

That's dumb.

MRP doesn't mean that you die slower when someone ganks you. As people have mentioned, "HELP" just gets people asking "Where?" because it's pretty useless. "HELP CARGO MAINT" is good, but the thing about "JOHNSON BAD" is that it immediately gets people's attention. For better or worse, it gets peoples' attention onto your sensors faster, not to mention that if Johnson is then arrested, they can get info about where he put your body from him.

Unfortunately, while it's LRP/NRP, it's one of those areas where the game just doesn't allow for anything else, because you can't run and talk, so you have to make what little time you have count, especially if you want to still have any time to run.

[sinfulbliss]

This gives Sec probable cause to, bare minimum, question or search them. This makes it not a random search.
Lying about someone's traitor status on the radio is risking them actually being an antagonist and ruining their round, and I'd argue this comes close to breaking rule one.

To clarify, I don’t mean to say it’s a problem that sec searches people who get accused of things. That’s part of their job. The problem is when people lie about someone which causes sec to search them, and at that point it is the same as a randomsearch effectively. If you commit no crimes and stay very stealthy as a traitor, forgo sechuds and even armor, the reward in exchange for being extremely vulnerable is that sec is not allowed to search you. This is all negated by a random person saying “Anne cult.” I’m almost certain this isn’t enforced via rule 1.

Anyway that might be tangential to the OP but it’s the more tangible problem with saying “X bad” IMO.

[Shadowflame909]

Maybe in a turn based ss13 this could work really well. But since it's fast paced action, fast paced call outs are all your gonna get

[Archie700]

This gives Sec probable cause to, bare minimum, question or search them. This makes it not a random search.
Lying about someone's traitor status on the radio is risking them actually being an antagonist and ruining their round, and I'd argue this comes close to breaking rule one.

To clarify, I don’t mean to say it’s a problem that sec searches people who get accused of things. That’s part of their job. The problem is when people lie about someone which causes sec to search them, and at that point it is the same as a randomsearch effectively. If you commit no crimes and stay very stealthy as a traitor, forgo sechuds and even armor, the reward in exchange for being extremely vulnerable is that sec is not allowed to search you. This is all negated by a random person saying “Anne cult.” I’m almost certain this isn’t enforced via rule 1.

Anyway that might be tangential to the OP but it’s the more tangible problem with saying “X bad” IMO.

The only reason why you would lie about someone being an antag (besides being traitor) is if you're a griefer.

[sinfulbliss]

The only reason why you would lie about someone being an antag (besides being traitor) is if you're a griefer.

In my experience it is usually a joke. Imagine clown yelling "HELP ANGELINA LING" if you shoved them or something. It's hard to envision that being enforced because it's just too common and might be a little overreaching in terms of censoring. I agree with you though that it can be grief, I've had people say it when they were just mad at me for small kerfuffles. I.e., you get into a valid conflict, they lose, then accuse you of being a baddie when they know you're not to get sec after you. If you're not antag the resulting randomsearch usually isn't a big deal if sec is competent and if you don't decide to escalate against them for it (both criteria are often not met). If you are antag it can seriously impact your round in a bad way, or even get you roundended.

But imagine how hard enforcement would be, or even catching these situations. Suppose you get searched for a false callout, you're an antag, you ahelp the randomsearch, sec gets bwoinked, says someone accused you of being bad. Now the admin has to dig to find out who, investigate why they accused you of it, and then undergo the annoying job of determining whether 1. it was a clear joke that sec took seriously for some reason (in which case the antag is SOL sadly), or 2. it was a totally random accusation to grief the player by setting sec against them.

This sort of thing also fucks sec over since they end up chasing fake trails.

[Pandarsenic]

This is getting slightly off-topic, but I almost never see calls of "X bad" or even "X traitor" or whatever unless someone is actively getting up to actual sketchy antagonist shit - esword, Tiny Prick, Bombing, etc.

People even on Sybil are rarely boring and unfun enough to call "X is bad" over someone, say, breaking into the RD's office. People much more often call out stuff like "DEAN ESWORD" or "LUCY CULT" (or "Maya breaking into CE's office with fire axe") and the like. This is why I think asking a little more than "bad" isn't a serious burden.

"Bad," specifically, has taken on a specific OOC meaning of "antagonist (nonspecific)." There was also "evil" for a while but I think that's mostly out of fashion.

[iamgoofball]

In situations where somebody is caught or manages to make a break for a moment of freedom short callouts is all they can muster and in my mind reminds me of people who are out of breath yet manage to force the only words that matter out as quick as possible.

Are more intricate RP callouts desirable? For sure! Would it be fun and realistic to expect victims just trying to share information to take a moment to think before they are gone? Not at all.

I don't believe setting a higher expectation for callouts would be a fun change and I also don't believe it would appreciably raise the RP of any server.

Unless we're going to add typing indicators and officially slap people for type baiting, we shouldn't be banning people for being short and to the point. Eloquence does not automatically equal "good RP", and you sometimes have literally half a second before you're slapped in the face with the funny hand to yell out about a cult.

[Drag]

I only half agree with this, like it is kinda lame but at the same time sometimes you only have a few precious seconds to get something out over coms before getting completely fucked over.

[YBS]

Unless we're going to add typing indicators and officially slap people for type baiting, we shouldn't be banning people for being short and to the point. Eloquence does not automatically equal "good RP", and you sometimes have literally half a second before you're slapped in the face with the funny hand to yell out about a cult.

I'm definitely not saying anyone should ever be banned for being short-handed, but just a communal nudge in that direction would re-elevate a huge part of the game-play that has become nearly a lost art over the years.

This could probably be accomplished with short conversations that would have the responding parties say 'lol malding' and then acomplaint the moment they're noted for being rule 1 - but that's a conflict I'd be willing to have. Wouldn't blame anyone else for seeing that as inherently 'not worth it', though.

It's also no big secret that I want typing indicators and that I'd happily police against their abuse.

[Shellton(Mario)]

I mean, I think its rp to scream over comms x is bad if you are getting murdered in maints and want to get out as much information as possible in as short amount of time before you are in crit. Also I really dont think this will really make much of a difference. All people will say instead is, GAY JOHNSON MURDERING ME!!! With no effort of looking into what happens themselves and just assume what was said was true.

[Mothblocks]

This is not against any of the rules stated in the title, and furthermore we are not interested in wasting the time of admins and players trying to enforce this. There might be cases in which it's lazy, but that doesn't make it against the rules.