For the love of everything holy, Please nuke free golems

[The Wrench]

Okay, lukewarm take time. Free golems are used as a free respawn to come back to the station, and mass grief and or kill your killer. Maybe I'm just bitter, but I have never once had a shift benefit from there being free golems just swarming the place and shitting everything up.

What I propose here is either a total removal of free golems, or a strict policy of golems staying away from the station. Either way is acceptable, but something has to be done about this.

[oranges]

I agree

[wesoda25]

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=19007

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 5&p=476146

I don't see golem armies mass BOH bombing the station anymore so I couldn't care less. Removing their teleporter is still a good idea. Mostly administrative issue.

[Mothblocks]

Removal of free golems is a code change, I'm pretty sure. One you're able to make

[wesoda25]

Removal of free golems is a code change, I'm pretty sure. One you're able to make

nope

edit at request of sir jared: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/42757

[cacogen]

If this is genuinely an issue more than a handful of rounds (I don't think so) then they should just be valid on the station (assuming they aren't already).

[The Wrench]

Removal of free golems is a code change, I'm pretty sure. One you're able to make

I mean, this is a policy issue first and foremost, Free golems are used as a respawn to go valid all the salad on the station. Ideally, this could be solved with a policy change. something like, "You must protect the ship of the liberator, do not abandon it for the station."

[The Wrench]

If this is genuinely an issue more than a handful of rounds (I don't think so) then they should just be valid on the station (assuming they aren't already).

I would rather not have golems coming on the station in order to start a TDM. A blanket "No free golems on the station" ban would be more effective. I mean, why should golems come on the station, what reason do they have for it?

[cacogen]

I think if they're valid it means they can't fight back and other people can't protect them

[The Wrench]

I think if they're valid it means they can't fight back and other people can't protect them

Either way, we need to make it clearer that Golems do not need to go to the station, they aren't from the station, and they need to stay off the station. Getting killed doesn't mean anything when you can really make nearly infinite bodies to use as free respawns. If I wasn't too stupid to know how to code, I would make it so free golems take passive damage from being off the lavaland Z level.

[Flatulent]

You might as well nuke every ghost role at this point

[Armhulen]

You might as well nuke every ghost role at this point

I think it's safe to say that regardless of my thoughts on this golem is easily the most problematic ghost role in terms of going onstation

[Farquaar]

Just ban them from going to the station if it's that much of a problem. They're harmless otherwise.

[Armhulen]

Yeah headmins have control over special flavor text why not

[Tlaltecuhtli]

if they are putting 0 effort into going for their killer then just ahelp it u baby

[cacogen]

Policy in code should be in the config if it isn't already. I don't know if the headmins have access to that, though. But banning golems from going on the station would be extremely unfun.

If unauthorised personnel are coming on board with unknown intentions that's security's job to deal with. Security tends to just leave them to it though, presumably to be nice to these players and because anything bad they might do will be against the rules.

If security can't handle golems respawning there should just be some sort of cooldown. Probably beginning on spawn rather than on death. Golems suicide to change shell.

[zxaber]

We could limit players to a single golem body per round. Similar code is in place for Ash Lizards.

If we do want to make golems never reach the station, a code solution is better than flufftext. Perhaps make free golems take a constant damage over time when on any space Z level and call it "Low Radiation Resistance" or something?

[Mothblocks]

We already have the stationloving/stationstuck/whatever it is for the skeleton role.

[cacogen]

I hate what they did to ash walkers. Eggs but no one spawning because everybody interested has died already.

Making free golems take damage off z-level (or just making it impossible to leave) is unfun. The penalty ideally would only affect players who misbehaved. Security should be able to deal with free golems as they see fit and the game should prevent players abusing respawns. If people metagrudge their killer that's an administrative issue.

[oranges]

cacogen - gun cargo is a code problem that should be solved by making crates unbreakable
also cacogen - free golems are an admin problem you should not use code to solve it.

Come on man, at least have a consistent position

[Farquaar]

99% of the time, free golems on the station are boring and lame- no more interesting than a free respawn. Build an autism project on lavaland. Heck, invite miners or crew to visit your weird golem colony. The role has a purpose, and beelining for the station does not fall in line with that purpose.

"But all the cool stuff is on the station!"
You died. Your time as a crewmember is over. Either do what lavaland free golems do, or wait until a different ghost role is available.

"But the crew wronged us and we want to retaliate!"
Smash up the mining base. Kill miners who wander lavaland. Set up traps or lure mobs to the shuttle docking zone. Free golems have plenty of options that don't involve self-antag grief on the station.

"But autism projects aren't fun for me!"
Then don't pick the autism project ghost role. It's not meant to be a respawn. Even if you can't find a way to enjoy it, there are people who can.

[Mothblocks]

Killing their access to the station with whatever the skeleton has sounds like the best path to me, especially if that's what headmins want. I have a friend who learned a lot about the game at their own pace through free golems, so I'm a bit sentimental about their existence.

[Vekter]

This is an administration issue and has nothing to do with actually removing them - if someone breaks the rules we punish them for it. Golems coming to the station and griefing is breaking the rules. Report it when it happens.

[JusticeGoat]

I would just ahelp if golems are gunning to the station they are not supposed to do this.

[NikoTheGuyDude]

I've already been told by a few admins that free golems aren't allowed to go on station with little reason; if they aren't talking out of their ass, why not just add this as a redtext and save both players and admins many a headache?

[Armhulen]

>go for a code solution
"THIS IS AN ADMIN POLICY"
>go to headmins
"GO MAKE A CODE SOLUTION"
so tired of this impasse jesus christ

[Vekter]

>go for a code solution
"THIS IS AN ADMIN POLICY"
>go to headmins
"GO MAKE A CODE SOLUTION"
so tired of this impasse jesus christ

Let me clarify - whether or not free golems are in the codebase is a coder issue. Whether or not we enforce that they aren't allowed on the station is an admin issue.

The only thing I can think of would be to make free golems spawn as some kind of snowflake golem so we can tell between station and free golems, should make it easier to find out when people are pulling shit like this.

[Flatulent]

cant coders and admins live in peace so they can inflict maximum suffering(read: remove shit they both dont like) on the server?

[Armhulen]

>go for a code solution
"THIS IS AN ADMIN POLICY"
>go to headmins
"GO MAKE A CODE SOLUTION"
so tired of this impasse jesus christ

Let me clarify - whether or not free golems are in the codebase is a coder issue. Whether or not we enforce that they aren't allowed on the station is an admin issue.

The only thing I can think of would be to make free golems spawn as some kind of snowflake golem so we can tell between station and free golems, should make it easier to find out when people are pulling shit like this.

I wish this was actually how it was, but oranges blocked removing golems (thus making your aforementioned coder solution administrative) and headmins blocked changes on administrative solutions to golems going onstation (thus making your aforementioned administrative solution a coding issue)

[cacogen]

If people are getting in trouble for going on the station (hasn't happened to me, but I've only done it a couple of times, haven't done it recently and haven't done it to grief) then as other people have suggested it should just have the red flavour text tell them not to. Administration via code. Not ideal. And if that red flavour text isn't in the config it should be.

Ideally the game would disincentivise them from going on the station. I hate making them take damage though. A better idea is if security get rewarded somehow for capturing them.

cacogen - gun cargo is a code problem that should be solved by making crates unbreakable
also cacogen - free golems are an admin problem you should not use code to solve it.

Come on man, at least have a consistent position

I didn't say either of those things. Either steelman like someone intellectually honest or come up with more convincing strawmen.

[Mothblocks]

how about this: if oranges doesn't block me on it (if he interprets this as an admin issue, or an issue the headmins must agree on), I'll merge a pr that gives them the whatever component the skeletons have to force them to not be on station. does that answer your concern arm

And if that red flavour text isn't in the config it should be.

all correctly coded policy (get_policy()) is configurable through policy.json

[Armhulen]

how about this: if oranges doesn't block me on it (if he interprets this as an admin issue, or an issue the headmins must agree on), I'll merge a pr that gives them the whatever component the skeletons have to force them to not be on station. does that answer your concern arm

And if that red flavour text isn't in the config it should be.

all correctly coded policy (get_policy()) is configurable through policy.json

yea because that was my original idea so i'm glad you went with it

[ShibaInuLord]

i miss when free golems were when golems built a town in lavaland

[Mothblocks]

how about this: if oranges doesn't block me on it (if he interprets this as an admin issue, or an issue the headmins must agree on), I'll merge a pr that gives them the whatever component the skeletons have to force them to not be on station. does that answer your concern arm

And if that red flavour text isn't in the config it should be.

all correctly coded policy (get_policy()) is configurable through policy.json

yea because that was my original idea so i'm glad you went with it

okay get to codin

[cacogen]

I'll merge a pr that gives them the whatever component the skeletons have to force them to not be on station

This sucks and I'm glad I wasted my time trying to explain my point of view in this thread. Lazy, artificially limiting, uses precedent as a justification even though that's illogical. If respawns are being exploited to quickly return to the station, use a cooldown. If metaknowledge is being abused, that's an admin issue. If golems should be encouraged to stay on Lavaland, tell security players it's part of their job to arrest trespassers on the station. Golems shouldn't be prevented from going on the station because of Adam Klein's unsourced anecdote that "Free golems are used as a free respawn to come back to the station, and mass grief and or kill your killer."

[Mothblocks]

that's alright i have hundreds of my own anecdotes of the exact same thing

[cacogen]

I'm glad we were able to come to this understanding

[oranges]

>go for a code solution
"THIS IS AN ADMIN POLICY"
>go to headmins
"GO MAKE A CODE SOLUTION"
so tired of this impasse jesus christ

first, you're full of shit, second, if they said that, show me and I will allow you to change the code

[Not-Dorsidarf]

that's alright i have hundreds of my own anecdotes of the exact same thing

Weird how hundreds of unique individuals did some grief which is against the rules in like 3 different ways, since of course you asked an admin to tell them to follow the rules each time

[saprasam]

free golems are a shitty midround ghostrole that almost always cause chaos for the crew because they have access to teleporters
not to even mention that they are extremely fucking tanky & have the ability to knock you down with a single punch

[JusticeGoat]

I feel like some of this would be solved if the ghost roles just green texted without needing to go to centcomm or had their own extraction systems, such as the golem ship taking off. Then write it in that they have no reason to go to the station.

[Timberpoes]

For additional context, https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/57367 has now been merged for a couple of days.

This doesn't restrict Free Golems from invading the station and doesn't seek to impact the policy around them at all - However, it does limit the length and breadth of ways that ghost roles can interact with the station. This includes limiting their ability to teleport and their access to easy GPS.

Has this improved how prevelant ghost roles second lifing/griffing the station is over the short-term?

[Qustinnus]

if timber's changes havn't resolved it, I will just start pounding ghost roles with components that prevent them from leaving lavaland.

[Ayy Lemoh]

if timber's changes havn't resolved it, I will just start pounding ghost roles with components that prevent them from leaving lavaland.

What if someones tries capturing an ashwalker, the admin wants to fuck around with the lavaland roles, or some prick busts out the min-tele to dunk on them? Although these are all extremely unlikely, I feel like it would just be completely bizarre if they got teleported back on lavaland (or just fucking gibbed for no reason).

[cacogen]

I like the attempt to fix the issue without preventing them from visiting the station. But my understanding of it was completely different. I see the issue as Free Golems spawning, doing no work and heading straight to the station. I don't see anything wrong with that unless they're griefing. If this is a correct appraisal, then let admins handle rule breakers and security handle trespassers. If the ability to die on the station, respawn and return is an issue, add a cooldown to those cases.

But I'm not convinced the issue matters as much as people seem to think it does. There's only a vague, subjective understanding of it and no statistics to back it up.

I think the real issue is that coders' expectations don't line up with reality. The role doesn't incentivise players enough to play it. They just want to head to the station. It's boring, lonely and a lot of work for one person to get going to attract other people. This is an attempt to try to force players into compliance with the coders' intentions for the role. Rather than acknowledge its flaws and try to attract them into playing the way you want them to by fixing it. Making the station a less desirable place to be would help too. You don't have to resort to measures that make it impossible to be there though.

Timberpoes' nerfs, while well-intentioned I think, only make the role less desirable to play the way coders want players to. I don't think teleporter access is causing whatever the issues are.

[Timberpoes]

If I could get away with it, I'd push the nuclear reset button and remove every offstation ghost role pending someone writing a design document laying out the broad intent and design vision behind offstation ghost roles.

It would be nice if ghost roles were built and mapped into the game to comply with the spirit of people playing on the station, game focus being about the station and observers having limited impact on the stations affairs outside of roles able to talk to the dead.

[cacogen]

Just clear the job slots of the dead and add the ability to respawn as a different character on the station, after a cooldown. It would fix so many problems. Including ghost roles being used as an opportunity to re-enter the round instead of the other shittier options. If coders could stop treating players like naughty assholes who have to be corralled and try to understand their perspective and the incentives acting on them problems like this could be resolved more easily.

[Mothblocks]

if timber's changes havn't resolved it, I will just start pounding ghost roles with components that prevent them from leaving lavaland.

Oranges is clear on this (and made it clear to me after my post here)--this change requires head admin approval. Arm was going to do it, but got blocked on that.

[Domitius]

Sorry guys, I really don't want to support this. I would rather we deal with a griefer now and again to keep the freedom of the role open. I wouldn't mind them getting a nerf while on the station or in pressure like some sort of slowdown but not completely blocking them.

Godspeed.

[Jolly66]

Once saw a golem on icebox trade to get a phazon mech off the traitor RD and proceeded to rush the AI and beat the shit out of it. Nuke golems.