Public Logs

[Aurx]

Bottom post of the previous page:

I suggest that a version of the server logs with login details (IPs, ect) censored be made publicly available.
E: Also delayed 6-12 hours to prevent metagaming, obviously.

[cedarbridge]

Anon3 you've been out of the scene so much you are pretty much irrelevant.

Love

Do they pay you to shitpost against people that don't play the game?


On topic, it would be a lot of work for little game, a lot of people have access to the logs and its just asking for more potential drama to unfold, especially when out of context bits and pieces find their way to singlo and 4chan coughyouknowwhoyouarebadmincough

You realize you're talking about Mr Singulo right?


I honestly don't see how "drama" or even sillier "possible drama" is a worthy complaint when (as already stated) /vg/ has it and somehow has managed to avoid imploding.

[ColonicAcid]

Oh no if you release public logs people will find out about my less then desirable opinions on things such as same sex marriage and bestiality!

This will not do!

[oranges]

Do they pay you to shitpost against people that don't play the game?

I wish

You realize you're talking about Mr Singulo right?


I honestly don't see how "drama" or even sillier "possible drama" is a worthy complaint when (as already stated) /vg/ has it and somehow has managed to avoid imploding.

Agreed, /vg/ shows it can be done and it won't have a huge impact.

[Timbrewolf]

Anon3 you've been out of the scene so much you are pretty much irrelevant.

Love

I wondered if I would have to remind anybody that I was the first Head of Bans and presided over FNR for a few months. That I should still have a pretty good idea of what helps or hinders the appeal/request process.

But you're too new to remember that so I can't blame you for not knowing. No hard feelings?

[Psyentific]

But didn't you ragequit with Erro's gang? Haven't you not been seriously adminning in-game for weeks, if not months?

[Timbrewolf]

But didn't you ragequit with Erro's gang? Haven't you not been seriously adminning in-game for weeks, if not months?

If you think my lack of playtime has ruined my perception of the playerbase, please explain where I'm wrong in what I said before. I think the fact that the shittalk has reached a point where it's spilled over to a whole separate imageboard and reddit of all places, is proof enough that people don't change.

Making all the logs public is only going to fuel that fire and provides no tangible benefit to the ban/appeals process in return.

There is such a thing as too much transparency. There are two kinds of people championing this:

1) Folks who hope their blind liberalism will endure them to the playerbase. Saying you're for something like this without considering the after-effects is a neat way to get players to like you without having to do any real work.

2) Folks who want this to happen because it'll potentially be a goldmine of bullshit to use against eachother.

To return to an earlier point: No, I don't play often and I try to stay out of policy discussion these days. I only return to speak my mind when people are on the verge of fucking something up royally, and this is one of those times. Have you ever known the /tg/station playerbase to be anything but vindictive as hell?

Does anyone really think this could end well?

I don't think anyone else has the common sense to say so, so this'll happen. It'll be great when people start making ban requests against characters they don't like for things they weren't involved with but MUH PUBLIC LOGS are justified so BAN THEY.

[cedarbridge]

1) Folks who hope their blind liberalism will endure them to the playerbase. Saying you're for something like this without considering the after-effects is a neat way to get players to like you without having to do any real work.

2) Folks who want this to happen because it'll potentially be a goldmine of bullshit to use against eachother.

Obvious vitriol aside, what about the rest of us that 1) Don't give a shit about scoring points with people who they don't know and 2) Aren't actively interested in fucking with people they don't know? You're painting with an awful lot of broad brush strokes because you "know the community." Apparently down to the individual players because you're willing to blanket mark everyone on the server as a shithead.

[Spacemanspark]

1) Folks who hope their blind liberalism will endure them to the playerbase. Saying you're for something like this without considering the after-effects is a neat way to get players to like you without having to do any real work.

2) Folks who want this to happen because it'll potentially be a goldmine of bullshit to use against eachother.

Obvious vitriol aside, what about the rest of us that 1) Don't give a shit about scoring points with people who they don't know and 2) Aren't actively interested in fucking with people they don't know? You're painting with an awful lot of broad brush strokes because you "know the community." Apparently down to the individual players because you're willing to blanket mark everyone on the server as a shithead.

We pretty much are all shitheads, though.
I have to agree with An0n3, as well. This will lead to people shitting on each other for more reasons.

[Timbrewolf]

Apparently down to the individual players because you're willing to blanket mark everyone on the server as a shithead.

I wouldn't put it past anyone to jump at a chance to make someone they don't like look like a piece of shit. Myself included.

I don't know if that makes everyone a shithead, but it definitely makes everyone a human.

I mean shit...you're doing it right now, aren't you? Instead of giving me examples of how the community has changed to be overall nicer and more tolerant than I might remember (which you can't do, because it hasn't) you're trying to say my sentiment must be wrong because I'm a jerk.

And you're right, I can be a huuuuuuge asshole. I can be the biggest asshole. But that doesn't make me wrong.

[paprika]

I can be the biggest asshole.

nope that's HG or me

[cedarbridge]

I mean shit...you're doing it right now, aren't you? Instead of giving me examples of how the community has changed to be overall nicer and more tolerant than I might remember (which you can't do, because it hasn't) you're trying to say my sentiment must be wrong because I'm a jerk.

Except the burden isn't on my shoulders to prove. You stated that people WILL use this newfound power to shit on people (apparently for legitimate reasons instead of the made up ones they already use) and thus its a bad idea to give ammunition to people that are jerks to be jerks with. I mean, I might be confused, but its you that stated that something will occur. I'm not seeing much here beyond "In my day people were jerks so if people are jerks then they're going to be jerks."

If the status quo is jerks. And the situation after adding public logs is jerks. Then we have a lateral change of zero. You're not going to make people better or worse because suddenly the things people already knew are visible.

- What information is so damning that it needs to be hidden lest all those jerks will become bigger jerks?
- How much of this information is already gleanable by observing, participating in the round where it took place, conjecture?
- Who benefits from hidden logs?

I guess the thing that bothers me the most is there's just nothing here but guessing based on past experiences. I appreciate that we can't really crystal ball this, but that's kinda how I'm reading your prediction. If X then definitely Y.

[Timbrewolf]

-snip-

If "in my day people were jerks" then my day was the ancient past of 15 minutes ago when I was reading other policy threads and singulo.
You must not read much or interact with others often if you you're in denial of the fact that, yes, there are a lot of assholes in this community.

Can you give me examples of a situation in which more information was made available to players and it was used for anything but pissing contests and argument fodder?
I can think of a few examples where that exactly is what happened and none where it wasn't. Where were you when Hornygranny was posting everyone's access logs? When people have dug up eachother's social media accounts?

We have plenty of previous experiences that spell out the vindictive nature of the community. You can't show me one benefit this will bring, that's your burden and you just admitted you can't lift it.
Meanwhile I can show you a whole history of examples of people misusing similar information and the general negativity of the community. That's my burden and I just dropped it at your feet. Stare right into it and tell me "There's only a possibility some people might be jerks, we just don't know!"

Spoiler:

1362739958835.gif

[cedarbridge]

-snip-

If "in my day people were jerks" then my day was the ancient past of 15 minutes ago when I was reading other policy threads and singulo.
You must not read much or interact with others often if you you're in denial of the fact that, yes, there are a lot of assholes in this community.

Can you give me examples of a situation in which more information was made available to players and it was used for anything but pissing contests and argument fodder?
I can think of a few examples where that exactly is what happened and none where it wasn't. Where were you when Hornygranny was posting everyone's access logs? When people have dug up eachother's social media accounts?

We have plenty of previous experiences that spell out the vindictive nature of the community. You can't show me one benefit this will bring, that's your burden and you just admitted you can't lift it.
Meanwhile I can show you a whole history of examples of people misusing similar information and the general negativity of the community. That's my burden and I just dropped it at your feet. Stare right into it and tell me "There's only a possibility some people might be jerks, we just don't know!"

Spoiler:

1362739958835.gif

"I've been there I know trust me." Ok sure. And I can remember back the whole 2 months its been since the "post my notes in this public thread" thread where shockingly, it was a civil thread and nobody managed to lose an eye. If your whole point was hinging on "my anecdotes are there and yours aren't" then we're pretty well done there I suppose. Reminding you again of the point everyone seems to have forgotton, /vg/ of all servers has public logs. For some unforseen reason, /vg/ has not yet sunk into the earth and collapsed due to this addition. Anyone who would claim from looking at the /vg/ thread that there are any more or less vindicitive players there than there are here is tunnel-visioning for the sake of argument.

You're also glossing over answering the post you quoted anyway:

If the status quo is jerks. And the situation after adding public logs is jerks. Then we have a lateral change of zero. You're not going to make people better or worse because suddenly the things people already knew are visible.

- What information is so damning that it needs to be hidden lest all those jerks will become bigger jerks?
- How much of this information is already gleanable by observing, participating in the round where it took place, conjecture?
- Who benefits from hidden logs?

If you can't answer this then there's no reason to exclude the information. Simple transparency. Obfuscation for obfuscation's sake is bad form.

(Also holy shit did you seriously just complain that singulo is reflective of the server as a whole?)

[Timbrewolf]

I'm not glossing over shit, I explained how people have only ever used otherwise "private" server information for negative purposes. I even implied that there have been examples where people have gone above and beyond the call of shittery to "stalk" information on other players when there wasn't already enough at hand.

I don't want to name specific examples because the people I have in mind already got enough shit over it, and sometimes still do when someone randomly posts "HEY GUYS REMINDER THAT SO AND SO...". But if you want a simple example look at the "Public Ban Discussion" thread where Psyentific decided, for whatever, to go dig up a guys steam account and post details about it because he thought it would be useful to make someone else look like a big dumbass in front of everyone else. You want to say all my opinions are based on ancient history, son that just happened within the last 24 hours. So what now?

I'll go point by point so my ruin of your terrible defense and complete lack of response to my counter-claims is final. Get reddddy

- What information is so damning that it needs to be hidden lest all those jerks will become bigger jerks?

As I've already explained and you ignored to rephrase and re-ask this question, having the logs publicly viewable opens up the opportunity for players who don't like other players to compile whole records of random activity and falsely represent it as a condense version of all a player ever does. I'm not saying anyone will become "bigger jerks", I'm saying they'll be the same jerks they've always been, now with more material than ever before to be jerks to eachother. For a server that's been mostly discrete about linking our players to their CKEY, it's a sharp 180 degree turn and throwing everyone who appreciated that anonymity to the wolves.

I'll ask you a counter-question you can't answer: If you were never bwoinked by an admin for your activities, and nobody ever made a ban request related to the things you've done, what benefit is there to suddenly making those logs freely accessible BUT inviting members of the community to begin policing eachother's history?

- How much of this information is already gleanable by observing, participating in the round where it took place, conjecture?

You can't watch and record everyone all the time, for starters, and I don't think we would want to encourage people to join the server just to observe others and log everything they do in the first place. If you like to watch rounds play out that's one thing, enjoy the show, but stalking players around the game to be a mini-mod isn't something I think anyone wants. One of the first things you learn as an admin is that the logs don't tell the whole story. There's a huge difference between someone chiming into a ban thread to claim they were there as a witness and an event take place vs. a player pointing to just what appears in a log.

- Who benefits from hidden logs?

Players who like having privacy and the ability to roleplay a character in different situations without having the entire community follow their every move. Do you ever play role-playing games with your friends? D&D, something like that? Would you still feel as free and confident to play your character knowing there was a whole studio audience potentially recording and watching everything you do?

There's this idea that this will help catch more griffins, I think? And that's bullshit because we've already had a system in place that's worked well enough for years for just this purpose: catching people who are up to no good when the admins aren't around. Have you looked at the ban requests subforum lately? By all rights, it's working better than I've ever seen it.

So are we done here?
That you brush off Singulo as a completely unrelated are to the community when a great portion of the adminstaff and playerbase are active posters and many more read it just shows you're further out of touch than I am.

[cedarbridge]

I'll ask you a counter-question you can't answer: If you were never bwoinked by an admin for your activities, and nobody ever made a ban request related to the things you've done, what benefit is there to suddenly making those logs freely accessible BUT inviting members of the community to begin policing eachother's history?

Considering this sentence barely makes sense in the first place, "You can't answer this" is cheating. I'll do it anyway based on what I think you're trying to ask. On the assumption that I was adminPMd for something that I was not punished for or BR'd for I'd gain what specifically in this case? I'd have a public record I could point to as part of how a given admin interacted with myself to compare to other similar interactions with other players at other times and under other conditions. In the specific moment I guess I gain nothing because my personal interaction with the log is already taken care of at the time of the conversation but to assume that's as far as it goes misses the forest for the trees. In fact the oddly tacked on phrase " BUT inviting members of the community to begin policing each other's history?" really only shows that you're only seeing this from the players towards other players and certainly not from the players inward at the administration. That's what transparent administration means anyway. We as a community can see how things are handled in general. If you're honestly pulling the "Ban requests will fill up with people fishing logs for dirt" line, then I'm afraid I simply don't share the paranoia or fear of the community. That's not ignorance or stupidity on my part. Its the assumption on my part that we're all adults here and that we're capable of behaving as adults do. I know its a pretty big leap if I were to be arrogant enough to dictate to the community how they will behave if given access to whatever information is already recorded about them anyway and drop released through filter anyway. We are adults right?

You can't watch and record everyone all the time, for starters, and I don't think we would want to encourage people to join the server just to observe others and log everything they do in the first place.

Nobody has the time to watch and record everything all the time but they've definitely got the time to go through everyone's logs and dig out whatever they can find to fuck over other players just for the hell of it. Go ahead, pull the other one. If somebody is seriously dedicated enough to want to metagrudge somebody that they'd scan countless pages of logs on the hopes of finding something to point to and say "see they always do this" they could just as well have the motivation to do so via observe. If they're seriously that petty then, as you seem to be illustrating this community as composed of jerks that apparently have this motivation and dedication to ruining everyone's time, there's really nothing stopping this from happening already. Logs would change nothing and provide functionally nothing that wasn't already there in a clearer format.

Players who like having privacy and the ability to roleplay a character in different situations without having the entire community follow their every move. Do you ever play role-playing games with your friends? D&D, something like that? Would you still feel as free and confident to play your character knowing there was a whole studio audience potentially recording and watching everything you do?

Terrible example aside, I don't ever expect "privacy in roleplay" in SS13. That's absurd. If you want privacy turn off ghosts and observer mode.

There's this idea that this will help catch more griffins, I think? And that's bullshit because we've already had a system in place that's worked well enough for years for just this purpose: catching people who are up to no good when the admins aren't around. Have you looked at the ban requests subforum lately? By all rights, it's working better than I've ever seen it.

Pills and potions? Poppycock, we have leaches and bloodletting already!

So are we done here?

I assumed this thread was meant for civil conversation. I mean, if I was wrong about that I can bounce.

Again, if we're going to take singulo seriously and consider it a major threat to server stability once logs are made public then we have to consider SS13 General (where /vg/ is based and posts 90% of their SS13 related commentary that's even comparable to singulo) has yet to destroy /vg/station with their public logs. By all comparison, Singulo is a pretty chill place and less outwardly visible to random non-users.

[Incomptinence]

Why do we have an obligation to protect people from evidence. I mean if they are already such terrible vindictive trash I don't see what is being preserved here. I deeply enjoy reading ban requests exactly for the frivolous cases which will never proceed to a ban which would apparently be the doom wrought from public logs. Final ban decisions are made by humans a guy combing the beach for I dunno accidentally hitting someone with a borg tool (damn you taser bash) would naturally look desperate because you know logs also have timestamps.

[Timbrewolf]

Did you just say you need all logs to be made public so you can log your own interactions with an admins?

Do you not know you can right-click and save your own personal log while playing the game?

"I don't expect privacy so nobody should."
I'm glad your comfortable with that but not everyone else is.

[Spacemanspark]

"I don't expect privacy so nobody should."
I'm glad your comfortable with that but not everyone else is.

[Timbrewolf]

Utterly wrecking your shit is fun so I'll keep going.

1) You keep using /vg/ station as a place where public logs work, and thus public logs should be a direct benefit to /tg/ station. You seem to have forgotten that the only thing our two servers have in common is that they both host SS13 games

/vg/station:
Isn't as old as us
Doesn't have as many players as us
Is run by different people, played by different people (though there are some who play both)
Runs different code than us

2) You complain that there's some enmity growing between us but you were the first person to start using stupid allegories and ad-hominem in your arguments instead of presenting clear points and counterpoints. If you don't like it getting a little wet in here you should be careful to keep your arguments clean in the future.

3) Rather than answer my unanswerable question you balk at how I phrased it and re-iterated points I already smashed. I'll rephrase it and ask it again so you can try to wriggle your way out of it again:
What tangible benefit does making our logs public bring to the community, that is not already available? What benefit do you have in mind that justifies the cost to player privacy and the imminent malice?

4) Of "tinctures and potions"? You're not an admin. You've never handled any bans or appeals. You're not qualified to comment on what helps or hinders that process. You're a fan sitting in the stands at a basketball game trying to tell the NBA they should give all the players rollerblades so they can move around the court faster. I mean, a guy on rollerblades goes faster than a guy who runs, right? Our players will move faster and shoot more accurately if only the NBA would give them all skates!

Why do we have an obligation to protect people from evidence. I mean if they are already such terrible vindictive trash I don't see what is being preserved here. I deeply enjoy reading ban requests exactly for the frivolous cases which will never proceed to a ban which would apparently be the doom wrought from public logs. Final ban decisions are made by humans a guy combing the beach for I dunno accidentally hitting someone with a borg tool (damn you taser bash) would naturally look desperate because you know logs also have timestamps.

For starters it'll create an environment in which every player is going to be in an argument with every over player whenever they get brought up on a ban. Everyone able to access and post logs of what happened will have different interpretations of it and want to chime in to get answers to their own accusations of wrongdoing. "Okay so you answered player X's question about what you did here but you didn't answer mine or player y's". I know everyone just loves to chime in like they're fucking space Rorschach gonna crack this ban wiiiiiide open, but the truth is the fewer people involved in a ban/appeal the more swiftly and accurately it can be processed and the less enmity there is to go around. My initial reason for creating the Head of Bans position and cleaning up FNR was to try to protect the accused from the fucking mob that would assemble like clockwork to heckle them and bait them into acting like a shithead and then getting LE EPIC DUNKT XD basketball.png Opening up the logs to the public is a gigantic step backwards, now everyone who has beef with someone else will be able to mine the logs and come up with a justifiable reason to butt in and start arguing with the person they don't like. If you want to help out with bans and doing work on the server, providing the players with justice, step up and become an admin. If you can't do that you should fuck off and leave it to the people who can.

[damiac]

Utterly wrecking your shit is fun so I'll keep going.

1) You keep using /vg/ station as a place where public logs work, and thus public logs should be a direct benefit to /tg/ station. You seem to have forgotten that the only thing our two servers have in common is that they both host SS13 games

/vg/station:
Isn't as old as us
Doesn't have as many players as us
Is run by different people, played by different people (though there are some who play both)
Runs different code than us

2) You complain that there's some enmity growing between us but you were the first person to start using stupid allegories and ad-hominem in your arguments instead of presenting clear points and counterpoints. If you don't like it getting a little wet in here you should be careful to keep your arguments clean in the future.

3) Rather than answer my unanswerable question you balk at how I phrased it and re-iterated points I already smashed. I'll rephrase it and ask it again so you can try to wriggle your way out of it again:
What tangible benefit does making our logs public bring to the community, that is not already available? What benefit do you have in mind that justifies the cost to player privacy and the imminent malice?

4) Of "tinctures and potions"? You're not an admin. You've never handled any bans or appeals. You're not qualified to comment on what helps or hinders that process. You're a fan sitting in the stands at a basketball game trying to tell the NBA they should give all the players rollerblades so they can move around the court faster. I mean, a guy on rollerblades goes faster than a guy who runs, right? Our players will move faster and shoot more accurately if only the NBA would give them all skates!

Why do we have an obligation to protect people from evidence. I mean if they are already such terrible vindictive trash I don't see what is being preserved here. I deeply enjoy reading ban requests exactly for the frivolous cases which will never proceed to a ban which would apparently be the doom wrought from public logs. Final ban decisions are made by humans a guy combing the beach for I dunno accidentally hitting someone with a borg tool (damn you taser bash) would naturally look desperate because you know logs also have timestamps.

For starters it'll create an environment in which every player is going to be in an argument with every over player whenever they get brought up on a ban. Everyone able to access and post logs of what happened will have different interpretations of it and want to chime in to get answers to their own accusations of wrongdoing. "Okay so you answered player X's question about what you did here but you didn't answer mine or player y's". I know everyone just loves to chime in like they're fucking space Rorschach gonna crack this ban wiiiiiide open, but the truth is the fewer people involved in a ban/appeal the more swiftly and accurately it can be processed and the less enmity there is to go around. My initial reason for creating the Head of Bans position and cleaning up FNR was to try to protect the accused from the fucking mob that would assemble like clockwork to heckle them and bait them into acting like a shithead and then getting LE EPIC DUNKT XD basketball.png Opening up the logs to the public is a gigantic step backwards, now everyone who has beef with someone else will be able to mine the logs and come up with a justifiable reason to butt in and start arguing with the person they don't like. If you want to help out with bans and doing work on the server, providing the players with justice, step up and become an admin. If you can't do that you should fuck off and leave it to the people who can.

There's no steno anymore, so where exactly is 'everyone going to chime in'? How does VG's different code make the people be nice enough that they don't have all these problems with public logs? (Also, can you install that 'nice people' code here?). What privacy are you protecting? I generally don't reveal sensitive personal info in game (in fact, it'd be OOC in IC if I did). Also, if idiots like aranclanos and you have access to these logs already, there already isn't privacy, so... what the fuck are you talking about?

[cedarbridge]

It must be nice having a version of this debate playing in your head that's different from the one present. Especially one where you're focused on "winning" or "wrecking" and less on actually discussing things in a mature way. Goes without saying but I said it anyway.

1) Your points against /vg/ are just kinda thrown out there and assumed to be good enough because they were stated. There's a lot of cross server population here between the two servers and the fact that the two use different codebases gives no reason that their application of server logs would be any worse or better than ours. Literally the only point on your list that even starts to make sense is "there are different people on the server/admins" which is great, but its assuming a lot of things about those other people. Apparently those people are idyllic and have no hard feelings against other players or something. It remains a fact that /vg/ culture would give at least if not more opportunity for people apparently dedicated enough to read through countless pages of logs just to get mad at somebody they're already apparently mad at to air that dirty laundry already. As it stands, your argument only holds weight if we have a reasonable expectation that at the point /vg/station reaches the same age as current sybil population /tg/ station that it suddenly breaks down BECAUSE of server logs and not in spite of them.

2) I'll look forward to you quoting myself acting hostile to you at any point previous to your own tone shifting to such a point.

3) Still harping that your question is "unanswerable" and then ignoring the answer doesn't change anything. You apparently missed the answer so I'll repeat it again. Every instance of adminPM (punished or otherwise) becomes part of the logs, yeah? My cases, your cases, everyone's cases are all logged. This allows general insight into how those cases are handled. I don't need access to server logs to track specifically my own adminPMs and at no point did I ever say such. Acting as though that is was I said is beyond obtuse. Server logs are certainly not reserved only for player interactions and player actions on the server. They also provide transparency in administration. I can't tell if you're allergic to this transparency or what reason you personally would have for being such.

4) I'm sorry. You know of my "qualifications" how exactly? I'm not on the admins.txt so therefore I'm not qualified to talk about administration and policies? What kind of ivory tower bullshit are you on here?

[damiac]

Well, everyone knows, the only way to win a debate is to say "I am winning this debate".

What, did you think it was based on logic and the merits of the author's points? People can't be bothered to read all that shit!

I have won this debate. Any further discussion will be taken as an admission of failure.

[Timbrewolf]

4) I'm sorry. You know of my "qualifications" how exactly? I'm not on the admins.txt so therefore I'm not qualified to talk about administration and policies? What kind of ivory tower bullshit are you on here?

Tell me at what point you were an admin on /tg/station and I'll consider your insight into what helps or hinders that process valid.

Barring that tell me what servers you have adminned on and perhaps that'll be relevant too.

Anywhere? At any point in time?

3) Still harping that your question is "unanswerable" and then ignoring the answer doesn't change anything. You apparently missed the answer so I'll repeat it again. Every instance of adminPM (punished or otherwise) becomes part of the logs, yeah? My cases, your cases, everyone's cases are all logged. This allows general insight into how those cases are handled. I don't need access to server logs to track specifically my own adminPMs and at no point did I ever say such. Acting as though that is was I said is beyond obtuse. Server logs are certainly not reserved only for player interactions and player actions on the server. They also provide transparency in administration. I can't tell if you're allergic to this transparency or what reason you personally would have for being such.

So you want public logs so you can go read over previous admin interactions with the playerbase? Are you not aware of the FNR forum, where you can see that all the time? You know there's a reason why old threads get locked and removed?

So your own idle curiosity about how some events you didn't witness nor were ever a part of is justification enough to turn over the entire logs of every round and every admin interaction to you?

You just kinda feel like digging around in people's histories, so why not?

2) I'll look forward to you quoting myself acting hostile to you at any point previous to your own tone shifting to such a point.

In your first response to my input you said everything I had to say was irrelevant because I haven't been an active admin lately. If that's truly the case, what good is your input as someone who has never ever been an admin?

[Timbrewolf]

There's no steno anymore, so where exactly is 'everyone going to chime in'? How does VG's different code make the people be nice enough that they don't have all these problems with public logs? (Also, can you install that 'nice people' code here?). What privacy are you protecting? I generally don't reveal sensitive personal info in game (in fact, it'd be OOC in IC if I did). Also, if idiots like aranclanos and you have access to these logs already, there already isn't privacy, so... what the fuck are you talking about?

You wan steno? Gib steno

Go jerk your circles or whatever you need to do. Do it in a place that wont interfere with the progress of the actual appeals/ban. It's a much better solution than I would've thought, at first.

Idiots like aranclanos and I have access to the logs because we've proved ourselves sufficiently less retarded than you such that we're worthy of being trusted with this stuff. There's also the expectation that if we abuse this knowledge or randomly share people's shit with others, there will be repercussions for it.

Speaking of old retards, I'm oddly pleased to see you're still here.

[MedicInDisquise]

Protip: If you're posting sensitive enough personal information in game, you're playing /tg/ and generally the internet wrong.

In any case, a nice fine censored public log doesn't sound bad. Perhaps have it in two stages: A log with censored c-keys and generally just player actions and OOC talk for ban requests and other more casual uses, such as steno. And one that is whitelisted/can only be seen with certain permissions for the heavy stuff. Issue out hefty game bans and forum bans (if those are even possible) for abuse.

[Timbrewolf]

The only part of this I think makes any actual sense is making the adminlog public.

If you live in a world of hopeless, self-centered paranoia you might think that maybe every admin is secretly making themselves immortal traitors with unlimited eguns when they're just around the corner and out of sight of your own personal logs. And if that were the case, the only way to catch people would be to have an admin that is keeping on eye on the other admins and willing to cross the "blue line" of adminbus to blow the whistle.

But hey, if you pay attention to things for like, ten minutes, you'll notice that some people hate some people's guts and would love nothing more than an opportunity to show everyone they aren't even worth the ink they sign their name with. I can think of a few people off the top of my head that would probably love to find some evidence that I gave myself traitor once or some shit, and I definitely know a few people I'd love to expose as scum.

The bottom line with all this shit is that people shouldn't be worrying about how what they're doing looks like out of context. The round ends when the round ends, except in the rare circumstance when something actually happened and it gets reported. If a griff happens in the woods and nobody calls the admin police, was it really griff? If an admin possesses the singularity and nobody can tell, does it actually matter?

[cedarbridge]

2) I'll look forward to you quoting myself acting hostile to you at any point previous to your own tone shifting to such a point.

In your first response to my input you said everything I had to say was irrelevant because I haven't been an active admin lately. If that's truly the case, what good is your input as someone who has never ever been an admin?

And yet, no such post exists in this thread. Imagine that.

1) Still harping about qualifications - I don't remember anyone hanging application requirements on the policy forum door and I'm decreasingly worried about what you do and don't consider valid at any rate. Opinions don't become infalliable after x months of experience in a given position. Ivory tower.

2) You're not stating a reason why these logs need to remain private. Simply restating the request with an incredulous emphasis doesn't count as an argument. Yes, transparency via public logs polices the admins as much as it polices the players, probably more. You point to FNR as though it were a reason to exclude logs from public view. The assumption remaining that this is apparently just about rubbernecking and circlejerking. The question still remains unanswered, "What is so horrible that it cannot be seen?"

[Timbrewolf]

I pointed towards a pattern of behavior that shows people will likely just use this to either be vindictive towareds people they don't like or just dig up awkward IC moments to harass eachother over. I explained that it sacrifices some of the playerbase's privacy for no tangible benefit, it does not allow us to do anything we could not already do.

You continue to claim that people wont do that despite that pattern of behavior showing they will, without providing any evidence that substantiate your claims that human nature has been rewrit during the last four months. Show me where people have learned to be the better man? All you have is some kind of...faith?...that they wont, or you dismiss that vindictiveness as not your problem because you don't care:

Terrible example aside, I don't ever expect "privacy in roleplay" in SS13. That's absurd. If you want privacy turn off ghosts and observer mode.

You keep claiming that it will expedite procedures it wont. Because everything will have to be checked and corroborated regardless. You say it will provide more transparency when all of our ban requests and appeals are already publicly viewable here in the FNR subforum. If anyone on the admin team screws around in a way they're not supposed to there's like 60+ people between admins and coders that will see that.

There comes a point in which breaking our backs to show you guys everything that goes on hinders the actual process that resolves conflict. Just like there comes a point in appeals/requests threads where sometimes you put your foot down and say "I made my decision.". You have to trust the admin staff to be able to make the right decisions and use good judgement because having everyone ride around on their backs anymore than they already do is only going to slow down or complicate the process, as well as contribute to the already significant amount of stress just doing the work accrues.

If you can't trust these guys enough to do the job they promised to do, have been trained to do, are put in a cage with 20-30 others to keep an eye on eachother while they do it without ALSO being able to watch everything they do all the time? I don't think the problem is in the organization or the amount of transparency we already have. I think the problem is the lack of appreciation for what already gets done.

[paprika]

I agree with an0n3. Particular sourpusses will just use it to cherrypick shit and piss on people they don't like. This isn't a good idea.