Public Logs

Aurx · Post by **Aurx** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:58 am #28125

I suggest that a version of the server logs with login details (IPs, ect) censored be made publicly available.
E: Also delayed 6-12 hours to prevent metagaming, obviously.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:02 am #28126

I think that would be a good idea.

While it should not act as a thing that lets admins tell players to do all the research by themselves. It does not only allow for more transparency but makes it easier to get evidence.

Hornygranny · Post by **Hornygranny** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:21 am #28132

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:55 am #28138

Aurx · Post by **Aurx** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:46 pm #28176

Hornygranny wrote:yes

leibniz wrote:no.

Why?

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:38 pm #28191

You mean like the attacks logs and such that admins look through during a ban appeal/request? Not sure why they should be public. Lets say you did, all that would happen is players leaving out certain parts of the logs. Then the admins would need to go check, which would completely invalidate the point of the logs being public to lower the work required by admins.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:45 pm #28194

Public Logs would basically be everything that happens. Attack logs, admin logs, whatever logs.

To expand on what I said.

Not everyone can be expected to save logs of every round they have been apart of, and when to bring it up in a ban request/appeal thread. While it is true that a user can manipulate the logs when posting them, however that is exactly why the admins job exists.

To be frank, no admin worth their merit is going to fully trust the logs of that one user produces who has a clear bias. Public logs would simply make it easier for players to collect information, fully understand a situation instead of making a thread on a ban request for a user that they, from their perspective, thought did something wrong, when they did not do anything wrong.

I think public logs would be a good thing.

Munchlax · Post by **Munchlax** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:29 pm #28200

why not

Reimoo · Post by **Reimoo** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:38 pm #28210

yes please

Hornygranny · Post by **Hornygranny** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:40 am #28265

It would be a big help to people who want to make good ban requests/admin complaints. There's no reason not to do this, if you are worried about people seeing you talk shit, then talk shit in IRC :^)

Antonkr · Post by **Antonkr** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:54 am #28269

Yes, transparency of administration gives room for us to not be shit and to improve.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:23 am #28274

I don't see any version of this that isn't either censored so much as to be useless or so full of info as to be useless.

Aurx · Post by **Aurx** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:08 am #28284

bandit wrote:so full of info as to be useless.

How so?

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:09 pm #28336

You have these massive data-dumps. But there are no names or identifying information (it'd be too easy to exploit -- I hope I'm just being cynical but I suspect some people will try to metagame off them.) So it's a flood of useless info.

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:45 pm #28337

This thread was inspired by an accusation about an admin making themselves an antag. Almost 60 people can access the logs and check if it happened or not.
If a ban request, appeal or complaint is made the logs are checked.

I think this isnt worth people possibly judging everything my character does or second-guessing everything I do as an admin, that is just how I feel.

Aurx · Post by **Aurx** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:08 pm #28367

bandit wrote:You have these massive data-dumps. But there are no names or identifying information (it'd be too easy to exploit -- I hope I'm just being cynical but I suspect some people will try to metagame off them.) So it's a flood of useless info.

Forgot to mention that the logs would have to be delayed some time period. Six+ hours seems good, as I doubt there's any rounds that long these days.

Kangaraptor · Post by **Kangaraptor** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:38 pm #28371

you could just make it that it only dumps the logs to the public source after the conclusion of each round. That way the logs are available immediately after the round but you can't metagame because, y'know, the round is over.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:21 pm #28378

I think the easiest solution would be to do it to the logs when the day cycles, since that's when the server moves to a new log file anyway. I do still think people would use them to collect 'dirt' on people they don't like and harass them.

Aurx · Post by **Aurx** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:41 pm #28380

Pandarsenic wrote:I think the easiest solution would be to do it to the logs when the day cycles, since that's when the server moves to a new log file anyway.

The issue with that is that the server is still writing to yesterday's log until the round ends, so there'd be a period every day when current logs were public.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:19 pm #28385

No way to have it only do it once the last writing-to is done for that round and it cycles through again?

Aurx · Post by **Aurx** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:55 pm #28411

Pandarsenic wrote:No way to have it only do it once the last writing-to is done for that round and it cycles through again?

I'm sure that's possible, but I don't know if it's been implemented.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:08 pm #28419

Time to skim the logs for ERP sessions!

Just kidding, I wouldn't do it even if it were at all practical.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:12 am #28459

Cipher3 wrote:Time to skim the logs for ERP sessions!

Just kidding, I wouldn't do it even if it were at all practical.

Ctrl+F
"lick" "pussy" "cunt" "insert" "moan"

Antonkr · Post by **Antonkr** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:03 pm #28543

bandit wrote:You have these massive data-dumps. But there are no names or identifying information (it'd be too easy to exploit -- I hope I'm just being cynical but I suspect some people will try to metagame off them.) So it's a flood of useless info.

I don't see your point. The only difference will be lack of IP computer ID and potentially CKEYs. You can do a lot with that still.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:49 pm #28554

Yeah I didn't explain that too well.

Full logs with ckeys: People will metagame off that. They just will. Even without IPs you'll have people use it to collect selective dirt on people they don't like, look for combat patterns, shit like that.
Full logs without ckeys: Massive wodge of information that is functionally useless because trying to find anything will look like a grain of [REDACTED] attacks [REDACTED] (or whatever logs look like) in a haystack of context free spam.

More than that, I'm curious why we even need this. Do we not trust the admins to access logs? Then that seems like a problem with the administration.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:50 pm #28556

To be honest, I also think that some people will use any way possible to gain advantage over somebody. That includes looking through logs to learn their playstyle and such.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:57 pm #28560

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:To be honest, I also think that some people will use any way possible to gain advantage over somebody. That includes looking through logs to learn their playstyle and such.

If they wanted to do that, it would be more effective to simply spectate those players.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:11 pm #28564

Steelpoint wrote:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:To be honest, I also think that some people will use any way possible to gain advantage over somebody. That includes looking through logs to learn their playstyle and such.
If they wanted to do that, it would be more effective to simply spectate those players.

People already do. And it is way more effective than trying to glean playstyle hints from vague log files.

ColonicAcid · Post by **ColonicAcid** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:38 pm #28734

This whole thread can be answered in one simple statement.

Occam's razor.

ABearInTheWoods · Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:40 pm

bandit wrote: Full logs without ckeys: Massive wodge of information that is functionally useless because trying to find anything will look like a grain of [REDACTED] attacks [REDACTED] (or whatever logs look like) in a haystack of context free spam.

Almost everything is either ic name(ooc name) or ooc name(ic name).

edit: Some examples:

Code: Select all

[05:23:47]ACCESS: Login: ckey/(name of mob they are logging into) from ip-cid || BYOND v506 
[05:26:28]SAY: name/ckey : <i>A monkey shouldn't be an arbiter of arrest anyway</i>
[05:26:29]SAY: Poly/ : <i>Wire the solars, you lazy bums!</i>
[05:26:31]EMOTE: name/ckey : <B>name</B> gasps!
[05:26:31]SAY: name/ckey : Do not lecture this unit on its laws.
[05:26:38]EMOTE: monkey (209)/ : <B>The monkey (209)</B> jumps!
[05:26:41]ACCESS: Logout: ckey/(name of mob they are logging out of)
[05:26:48]EMOTE: name/ckey : <B>name</B> glares.
[05:26:58]SAY: name/ckey : You cannot arrest me for stopping a monkey
[05:27:03]SAY: name/ckey : You guys are gonna miss the shuttle.
[05:27:04]SAY: name/ckey : He is HoS
TOPIC: "status", from:ip, master:, key:
[05:27:08]SAY: name/ckey : Anywhere in particular you wanna sit?
[05:27:09]SAY: name/ckey : Still a monkey
[05:27:11]SAY: name/ckey : Good point.
[05:27:16]GAME: ckey(name) has authorized early shuttle launch in (203,145,1)
[05:34:35]GAME: ckey (the word ckey here) has been selected as a traitor
[05:34:35]GAME: ckey (the word ckey here) has been selected as a traitor
[06:07:17]ADMIN: HELP: ckey/(name): That retard Darren Greenawalt was being a greytide shitler, breaking down walls and stealing Ian from me, pretending to be HoP as well, even though i am real HoP, and i've done nothing demote-worthy. After a few short dialogues he stole my ID along with energy gun, and ran away, leaving me without ID and with stupid captain, who can't do anything. Darren is running around being Unkown with a box borg mask. dick - heard by 1 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
[07:02:46]OOC: name/ckey : yeah it takes long
[07:02:46]OOC: name/ckey : make a better interface for turning on/off antag
[07:02:47]OOC: name/ckey : I just want not extended
[07:07:07]ADMIN: ckey/(name) spawned /obj/item/device/violin at (38,115,1)
[00:31:53]ATTACK: ckey/(name) injected ckey/(name) with the DNA injector
[00:31:54]ATTACK: <font color='red'>name(ckey) shot name(ckey) with The electrode</font>
[00:31:55]ATTACK: <font color='red'>name CPRed name(ckey) </font>
[00:31:55]ATTACK: <font color='red'>name(ckey) attacked name(ckey) with energy gun(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYE: BRUTE)</font>

So while there are a few outliners that would need to be standardized (mainly in the attack log) almost all of the logs show both ckey and ic name.

log entries about ic things would have the ckey removed, and logs about ooc things would have the ic name removed. ie: admin actions would have the admin's ic name removed, admin pms/helps would have the ic name of both removed. admin sable messaging (you hear a voice in your head) would have the admin ckey but the players ic name. most else would be ckey removed save for ooc chat, where ic name would be removed.

Giacom · Post by **Giacom** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:16 pm #28976

How is making ckeys public a problem?

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:35 pm #28978

Giacom wrote:How is making ckeys public a problem?

Especially since its the bit that players have to ask admins for anyway when they make a ban request.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:23 pm #28983

Aren't ckeys the names that appear in OOC or am I missing something?

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:25 pm #28985

Scott wrote:Aren't ckeys the names that appear in OOC or am I missing something?

Generally yes.

Saintish · Post by **Saintish** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:30 am #30136

Pandarsenic wrote:I think the easiest solution would be to do it to the logs when the day cycles, since that's when the server moves to a new log file anyway. I do still think people would use them to collect 'dirt' on people they don't like and harass them.

A lot of that "dirt" would be useless without the context of the situation bring known.

Anyway, yes.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:00 am #30161

Given the emphasis of transparency and accountability in server culture, we should've had this a while ago. The only sticking point is how hard this would be to do, and when it would update.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:30 am #30166

It doesn't look hard to do.

I'd say the difficult part is finding someone willing to do it.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:06 am #30189

A very large amount of drama will be caused by this as admin logs get thrown to singulo like a carcass to starving hounds.

Yeah I'm in, sounds fun. It might actually reduce the conspiracy stuff.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:02 pm #30213

Don't even bother with the people on singulo. They'll cry conspiracy no matter what.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:47 pm #30245

MisterPerson wrote:Don't even bother with the people on singulo. They'll cry conspiracy no matter what.

Because they're right! The Admins are in league with the zionist freemasons! MKUltra! Gamergate! Israel! 9/11! Moon landing! Kennedy assassination! Tonto & 2beard! Erro's dramastorm!
They're all connected just wake up sheeple!

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:49 pm #30262

Psyentific wrote:
MisterPerson wrote:Don't even bother with the people on singulo. They'll cry conspiracy no matter what.
Because they're right! The Admins are in league with the zionist freemasons! MKUltra! Gamergate! Israel! 9/11! Moon landing! Kennedy assassination! Tonto & 2beard! Erro's dramastorm!
They're all connected just wake up sheeple!

I seriously doubt Zoe slept with 2beard

Post by **oranges** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:53 am #30354

Why don't we just host the public logs on singulo as well?

That will save them some time

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:26 pm #31629

Seems like a terrible idea to me. We're just inviting players who don't get along with eachother to go digging through the logs trying to find dirt on one-another and feed the shitslinging.

It wont change the process for making an appeal or a ban request, as an admin is still going to have to go and confirm that the logs are genuine and unedited. It's just giving our playerbase more ammunition to fire at eachother and the only advantage is that a player is effectively able to tell an admin where the timestamps are in the logs they need to look at are (which they could already roughly do anyway).

I can't wait until people are compiling pages and pages of combat logs or dialog from a character they don't like in massive ban request threads. At which point people will counter with more logs of the accusing player in an attempt to show equally bad behavior.

This is the future you're choosing.

Do any other servers have public logs?

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:13 am #31654

An0n3 wrote:Do any other servers have public logs?

Do any other servers have a large admin team focused heavily around transparency and accountability?

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:03 am #31717

An0n3 wrote:Do any other servers have public logs?

Pretty sure /vg/ does, hence why Aurx is talking about it.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:17 am #31719

Saegrimr wrote:
An0n3 wrote:Do any other servers have public logs?
Pretty sure /vg/ does, hence why Aurx is talking about it.

I thought /vg/ was kill

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:19 am #31720

An0n3 wrote:I thought /vg/ was kill

Works On My Machine™

Post by **oranges** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:48 am #31728

Anon3 you've been out of the scene so much you are pretty much irrelevant.

Love

callanrockslol · Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:36 pm

oranges wrote:Anon3 you've been out of the scene so much you are pretty much irrelevant.

Love

Do they pay you to shitpost against people that don't play the game?

On topic, it would be a lot of work for little game, a lot of people have access to the logs and its just asking for more potential drama to unfold, especially when out of context bits and pieces find their way to singlo and 4chan coughyouknowwhoyouarebadmincough

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:30 pm #31818

callanrockslol wrote:
oranges wrote:Anon3 you've been out of the scene so much you are pretty much irrelevant.

Love
Do they pay you to shitpost against people that don't play the game?

On topic, it would be a lot of work for little game, a lot of people have access to the logs and its just asking for more potential drama to unfold, especially when out of context bits and pieces find their way to singlo and 4chan coughyouknowwhoyouarebadmincough

You realize you're talking about Mr Singulo right?

I honestly don't see how "drama" or even sillier "possible drama" is a worthy complaint when (as already stated) /vg/ has it and somehow has managed to avoid imploding.