Gang War feedback

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:20 am #99887

Bottom post of the previous page:

So having played as a gang boss the other day and having been a lieutenant several times, I'd just like to say this is by far my favorite game mode of all time.
I have no real feedback aside from saying everything pretty much works perfectly and always ends in some kind of exciting action.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:52 am #99900

lumipharon wrote:I don't think you can do much about it, but the last big fight I saw between a gang and sec (it was a fucking good one too), I saw atleast 2-3 gangsters get deconverted during the end half when sec started just brutalising the gangsters.
But they all got murdered by sec all the same, possibly since they didn't notice that they'd been deconverted (or just not cared, one of them was drilling the shit out of them...).

Problem is, if you don't have the means to immediately detain them and keep them in sight at all times until you've implanted them (and you don't, because you're fucking fighting a lot of gangsters in this scenario), you can't rely on them not being reconverted by someone.

Since you can't be sure they're not a gang member, you can't implant them. But you can't just beat them up, even up to crit, because if they're not a gang member but you detained and killed them it's gonna look bad. So suddenly you're stuck with a problem that would have been solved if you'd just killed them beforehand, during the big fight. It's not like being deconverted exempted them of their crimes anyway (well, it did, but...uh...oh well).

This is, as we can see, a bit different from cultists where if someone gets out of your sight then you can just get them drunk on holy water again, see if they start burbling, and if they don't implant and release.

cultist-chan · Post by **cultist-chan** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:10 am #99905

You dunn good coding this.

That being said you need to come up with a better way that security can deal with gangs. Currently I haven't seen the gangs fail.

That being said its a super fun round. Thanks!

Juninho77 · Post by **Juninho77** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:54 am #99981

The one thing that I truly hate about gang wars is that torture is the only way of deconverting gang members.

As a Captain who completely disapproves torture, I am forced to simply call the emergency shuttle when I see tags.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:59 am #99983

I will tell you for a fact Ikarrus that if the only way to deconvert a gang member is to beat them up, then we're going to see a lot more dying and dead players in security custody and a lot of annoyed silicons.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:29 pm #100032

Deconversion is pretty annoying. It's a chance and sometimes people get crit without getting deconverted. Asimov is the default lawset and you should be able to win while being asimov-compliant. Gangs recruit so quickly now and are so powerful with their tools that I see almost no reason why you shouldn't restore Implantmania.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:36 pm #100035

I find that implants give security far too much presence in the round. When they had them it was too easy for them to entrench themselves and locate the gang bosses. The round become less about gangs vs gangs (Interesting) and more about sec vs rev with guns (not so interesting).

I'm not going to re-add implants any time soon, although I agree with you that currently conversion is too fast. I'll see if lengthening the cooldown might help.

also grow some balls

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:46 pm #100064

Right, well, I just had another fantastic (And by fantastic, I mean really awful) round of gang as psuedo-Security. It went more or less the same as the majority of gang rounds I've tried to enjoy as HoS.

This gamemode is just two antag teams recruiting and murdering Security. They have no easy way of identifying each other, so gangs only fight in very rare random meetups between 2 groups, or when one smacks down a Dominator. Security is so hugely disadvantaged that the instant I see multiple tags confirming, I just want to wall off the Brig and say we're going hands off. It is near impossible to score a crew victory - Gang recruitment rates and influence gain rates (Both the per 5 and the sheer number of areas one can tag and rarely see resistance in) pitted against a Security force that is more or less static in numbers and equipment is too much. When the only way we can deconvert is via RNG head beatings, it is extremely easy to get totally boned by losing silicon aide (It's very likely that Cap/HoP/RD are not around, and even more likely that the latter 2 are gang-converted ASAP). Combined with the armor nerfs, Security just gets torn apart.

It's not fun. It's not engaging. The only way I could think to fix it would be to rework the territory systems to make them more something to hold onto, and less tag n' run. I really like the concept of the gamemode but as it stands, it is just not working well. Sure, it may be fun for the gang players, but it's just not doable as Security. Having to deal with lategame gang where you're starved, bloody and running low on flashbangs while >50% of the crew is gang armed with automatic weapons and extremely robust melee weapons, regardless of the fact that despite your best attempts to stem it they could still afford more gangtools is just bleh.

Edit: Territory should be entirely reworked. Adjacency of controlled territory to give a zone of influence is a much better system, as it centralizes gang power and rewards them for choosing something to truly make their stomping grounds.

Lumbermancer · Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:05 pm

I don't get it. So what role do you want Security to serve in Gang mode? Do you want them to barricade in Brig and let gangs duke it out? Because with all the changes to deconversion and implants, limiting the preventive capabilities of sec, you are pushing them further into judge jury and executioner role, where everyone caught with spray can will be killed on the spot and spaced. Which is exactly what you don't want.

You can't have brain cake and eat it too.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:15 pm #100072

They're the background third party, not a driving force like in rev. The distinction here needs to be made to distance gang from rev.

There was an idea earlier to give gangs an item to destroy implants so security players aren't damned to be a punching bag, and can instead join in on the fun. I might give that a shot now.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:26 pm #100077

Ikarrus wrote:They're the background third party, not a driving force like in rev. The distinction here needs to be made to distance gang from rev.

There was an idea earlier to give gangs an item to destroy implants so security players aren't damned to be a punching bag, and can instead join in on the fun. I might give that a shot now.

I thought we were against security antags, universally?

This isn't solving the problem of territory being somewhat meaningless and gangs never actually fighting, but instead competing to murder all of Security for the sick gear/unopposed dominator.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:30 pm #100079

No idea where you get that from.

And if security can get recruited gangs will actually have a reason to keep them alive Instead of being marked for death.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:34 pm #100081

What reason is that? Extra step is already around, implants can be removed in surgery. It's not used.
Even making that easier with a magic disloyalty pulse to break it will only come into play in the event of a sec capture by a head gangster, the normal gangsters will just continue to murderboner the sec for the delicious candy that pops out, the same way they do civilians and whatnot when they can't find a boss to convert them.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:37 pm #100082

No other gamemode supports sec antags except for blob, sort of. And shadowling(?).

This isn't a good change, it will just mean the HoS will get rapidly combo'd and murder Security. Gangsec would lead to ONLY more random bullshit killings.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:38 pm #100083

Surgery requires equipment that is not readily available, and is a lot more difficult and time consuming to execute. It'd require capturing and holding a prisoner for sometime that most people would not bother with.

And RIP gang is a lethal game mode. There's nothing you can do about that without making it literally rev with guns, or reverting to how it used to play "RP gangs"

People will die. The padded gloves are off. That's intended.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:41 pm #100084

It's still Security-centric. Gangs need incentive to fight each other. Fuck, I don't even see gangs go after each other when a dom is set up unless all of Security is dead, because they know sec will take it out for them. Gangs will now be based out of Security, arresting and converting, and using that sweet sweet nonlethal detainment gear. This is not marginalizing sec like you want them to be a third party, but rather elevating them to a role of even higher importance than they held before.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:52 pm #100087

Well the important thing here is not whether or not security will lose, but giving security players a chance to participate beyond getting killed.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:55 pm #100091

Ikarrus wrote:Well the important thing here is not whether or not security will lose, but giving security players a chance to participate beyond getting killed.

So you think a crew victory should be impossible in gang?

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:58 pm #100094

It's a small chance. but it's something I guess.
History has already shown that sec conversions rarely happen no matter how easy it would be.
you used to have to just remove shades for it, That rarely happened though, Unless the head rev was right there, statistically low considering the rev/revhead ratio in a normal round.

cultist-chan · Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:06 pm

Scones wrote:
Ikarrus wrote:Well the important thing here is not whether or not security will lose, but giving security players a chance to participate beyond getting killed.

So you think a crew victory should be impossible in gang?

Ikarrus wrote:They're the background third party, not a driving force like in rev. The distinction here needs to be made to distance gang from rev.

There was an idea earlier to give gangs an item to destroy implants so security players aren't damned to be a punching bag, and can instead join in on the fun. I might give that a shot now.

No Ikarrus
STAHP

Gangs are too OP as it is. If you're going to make it so gangs can destroy implants then remove the whole "beating someone in the head" that de-gangs someone. Just implant to de-gang them.

Oldman Robustin · Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:09 pm

That item better cost like 60 or more influence, or have some additional hurdles to make it challenging to convert an officer.

I'm open to sec antags, but they are beastly. If you get the HoS on your side for example, and he's got a shred of robustness, it's GG.

I agree with gang war being about a gang war, but the two biggest problems are:

1) One gang gets destroyed early on

2) Security has to get involved due to dominator and mass gun violence. Almost every gang will slaughter security before dropping their dominator.

Unlike previous posts, I think that the problem with #1 is less about one gang snowballing as it is the other gang lacking:

a) Comeback Mechanics

b) Some kind of safety net against getting destroyed early on

Comeback mechanic in that once the other gang has superior numbers and influence, I've never seen the weaker gang make a comeback. I like the idea of a gang that's crippled and vastly out-manned getting access to a pen that lets them convert enemy gangsters (minus enemy boss+LTs).

The other issue is when one gang boss is an absolute idiot like Bryce Pax who uses starting influence to pull out an Uzi and get killed in 30 seconds. Triggering a new gang or promoting a boss within a headless one would be nice.

As for the sec issue. It's very tricky. Ikarrus doesn't really appreciate that while Gang War needs to be about the Gang War, security can't play a passive role. Headcracking is a decent middle ground right now, but speaking as someone who got knocked from low HP to dead after being deconverted, too many sec officers just want to finish off their valids and justify it on the grounds that you'd just get reconverted anyway. I think double implanting is a decent alternative, one implant doesn't do anything unusual, but a second implant will remove their gang status. It prevents the old "jab all criminals with implants blindly" problem that ruined Gang War before, but it forces sec to dynamic, robust, and intelligent in maintaining a flow of implants from cargo if they want to do more than scratch the gang's numbers. Dominator is almost always about sec v. gang anyway, by the time a gang drops the dominator they've "won" the gang war and its typically just a test to see if they can hold off security/lynch mob.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:12 pm #100101

Just some off topic musing but I find it both amusing and inconsistent that gangsters may be able to defeat a loyalty implant easily while revolutionary's cannot.

On topic, almost any game mode you make will involve security to a large degree, you can't escape that fact and to be blunt trying to minimise or marginalise security during these game modes just makes the game unfun and tedious for security players where their best tactic is to wall off the brig.

I think what Ikarrus might be trying to get at is that Security only gets involved when either the gangs step up their game (guns and all) or the dominator is put into play, but with the way the game goes there's no reason for gangs to avoid targeting security and vice versa.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:19 pm #100119

Internal mulligans within gang mode to pick a new boss when they die early in a stupid way might be worthwhile. Or I might go with the original layout and just have two-three bosses per team at round start, and remove lieutenants. (or hey make it scale with population)

And yeah the sec problem has been difficult to solve for a while now. I'm not saying my ideas are the end-all here. We're going to have to try all sorts of ideas and see what works best, imo.

I'm considering bringing back loyalty deconversions (the two-implant method I used before) and a deconverter implant for gangs. I'd like to see how implants affect the game if the antagonists can do the same as security.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:54 am #100259

Gang Update: Implants Edition
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10285

Let me know if you think my approximation of a good cost for Implant Breakers is off.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:12 am #100261

These are interesting changes. I look forward to them being merged - I'll try to get feedback from a sec perspective regarding the implant destroyers.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:14 am #100262

Considering how the average officer usually never notices a lack of a loyalty implant in other officers who've "lost" theirs I can predict how this will turn out.

I'll be amused to see how this goes, but I think the moment someone like the HoS or Warden is converted is the moment that gang will be in a very good position.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:17 am #100947

Datum-Based Gangs:
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10328

A refactor of gangs to put each of the gangs into their own datum. Aside from cleaner code, this will have a number of benefits, including support for up to six gangs.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:52 am #100987

Ikarrus wrote:Gang Update: Implants Edition
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10285

Let me know if you think my approximation of a good cost for Implant Breakers is off.

Really don't like not being able to choose my own lieutenants. Maybe have a single starting lieutenant with no pen at roundstart instead?

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:27 pm #101019

Amelius wrote:
Ikarrus wrote:Gang Update: Implants Edition
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10285

Let me know if you think my approximation of a good cost for Implant Breakers is off.
Really don't like not being able to choose my own lieutenants. Maybe have a single starting lieutenant with no pen at roundstart instead?

Having a single roundstart boss just causes troubles when an incompetent boss gets the gang shut down before it even started.

Oldman Robustin · Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:26 pm

Would it really be so bad to have one LT. pre-selected and one LT. promotable?

Seems to fix a lot of issues and fits with the theme (Boss starts with a right-hand man).

hanshansenhansson · Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:41 am

Just had a round with only one boss. I could not register a lieutenant thing to myself, and could not use a pen. In the end we only had one guy able to recruit. Worked for our gang, but the other boss died quite early.

Honestly, what I liked most about gang was the fluid promotions. If you are up to it, and not completely retarded you can get yourself your antag-authority and help the new guys to a victory.
You could maybe add that everyone who picks up the tool of a dead/braindead boss/lieutenant can usurp the rank, to fight the problem of afk/dead bosses a bit.

(Also, victory is a bit lacking. Needs some special effects and stuff. Just an "ay you won" in text feels a bit empty)

Killbasa · Post by **Killbasa** » Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:13 am #101279

As for getting the gangs to go against eachother, you could make everything cost more influence the bigger the gang is and reward gangs with influence for killing enemy gang members

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:54 pm #101413

The most recent update included a significant refactor of gang code, which was expected to introduce at least a bug or two.

Unfortunately, the bugs turned out to be pretty important. I've put up a fix here, which I hope will be merged soon.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10354

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:33 pm #101422

Have yet to see implant breakers in use

Step it up gangbangers

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:56 am #101505

Gang is in poorer shape than I thought. I've removed it from rotation until it can be fixed. I'm sorry it had to turn out like this.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10361

Incomptinence · Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:19 am

There was meant to be more than two gangs right? Yeah I never saw that happen.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:57 am #101523

It runs on RNG to spawn the third gang for now. prob(num_players())

Just so I can see how it plays with two or three gangs at different population levels.

Anything more than that would have to be badminnery.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:11 am #101524

While it's broken, try some street gang stuff during extended/traitor, or something. I think it would be neat, and could actually allow RP compared to real gang.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:34 am #101754

Gang Update: Last Refactor Bug Edition
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10401

We successfully ran a full gang round on Sybil, but with just one non-roundbreaking bug. This PR closes the final hole caused by the refractor and tweaks a few other things. I'm confident after this gang can be hands-off for a little while.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:18 am #101938

We just run a successful 6gang round, so I'm putting gang back on rotation.

Would you believe me if I said security won?

You can also expect that gang-nations round I've been talking about soon.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:31 am #101942

If nationgangs, I wonder how the glorious pipe kingdom of Atmosia will survive under Engitopian occupation.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:34 am #101943

I don't lose.

My thoughts on the round, from the HoS perspective:
- Sixgang was obviously some sort of joke, gangs never grew powerful enough to really do anything although every square inch of station was tagged
- Power levels felt about right in terms of combat, people got their shit pushed in with uzis
- Nobody used an implant breaker to my knowledge(found one on somebody, so props to desucake for having a plan to use one)
- Implants allowed sec to (barely) keep a handle on the situation, the crates were pricy and only promised 2 people's loyalty per crate

It was a fun round. If the gang bosses had been better players, it would have been closer. Only one Dominator attempt was made.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:36 am #101946

Just a theory but if there's more than two gangs won't that somewhat help security win?

Because there's more gangs, there's less free station members to recruit but also there's more targets for security to go for.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:38 am #101947

Steelpoint wrote:Just a theory but if there's more than two gangs won't that somewhat help security win?

Because there's more gangs, there's less free station members to recruit but also there's more targets for security to go for.

It was actually pretty tense

The upside for the gangs was that we were always fucking busy, had literally NO downtime, and were constantly out of implants

The downside being that the gangs were fighting really hard to gather any amount of notable influence from so many trying to split territory and never were able to recruit a big enough force to really menace sec

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:40 am #101962

That was a pretty intense round to be captain in, was constantly busy.
I forgot to paladin the AI till right at the end, so it was asimov most of the game. I think that was for the best though, since if we had the AI and borgs will us, we could have probably stomped on the gangs harder.

Mongke · Post by **Mongke** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:56 am #102003

Yeah I was boss of the max gang that round it was my proper first time in gang as all other gang rounds I had been security or a Nuke op, We didnt do very good since I wasnt sure how to lead properly and most of the crew was in other gangs. The Dominator was only used once by another gang and gun shut down in minutes. Im not sure if 6 gangs was just a one time thing but if it does stay I think you should replace the dominator with gang oriented objectives like wipe out X gang and control 40% of the station or something. That could also lead to gang cooperation if their objectives are in unity.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:39 pm #102004

I would imagine a six gang round would be more of a gimmick or a very rare event since from what I've read, and can infer, it seems that having too many gangs simply makes each gang weaker individually.