Security utilizing Emags

[ParadoxPancake]

Hey all,

Let me just preface this by stating that it's been a good time playing /tg/ for the last month and a half. SS13 is a great game and /tg/ is a pretty great community all and all. While I mostly play to have fun, I was encouraged to create a topic in FNR about this subject in a previous round on Sybil, so here goes:

Context: I was a traitor Engineer and my objectives were simple. Get station blueprints, escape. I decided to have some fun with it and took a hardsuit, broke into the vaulted part of tech storage from space and snatched the AI circuit board. Went secluded, installed it, subverted the AI to obey me and protect me, etc. Also got a chip for the headset so I could talk to the AI. Great, got the blueprints and then I wanted to shuttle called. Told the AI to create a ruckus by flooding the station with plasma and then calling the shuttle with a law 2 justification. Well, it works. We're waiting and at some point, folks manage to kill the AI. After a bit more waiting, I get arrested. I find out that a Security Guard emagged (which I'm assuming he got off another captured traitor) an engineering borg and told it to kill the AI, which it did. It then informed the guard that I was the one that subverted the AI. This is the part that I was told to report on whether or not it was acceptable for a guard to use one.

I know that individuals are allowed to know about antagonists and there's no real "mystery" surrounding them, but I'm curious about policy on this. Is it acceptable for a security guard to carry that emag around and use it? Wouldn't it be considered contraband? I guess it's kind of a gray area or situational. If the HoS had it locked up but a subverted AI situation comes up and the guard asks to use it and the HoS approves versus the security guard knowing that the item is inherently valuable and what it's capable of, keeping it on their person to use, and then using it on a borg to cut its LawSync and make it loyal to that guard. Clarification on whether or not it's a breach of Rule 3 for Security is kind of what I'm asking for, because it's kind of a bad precedent to say that Security are allowed to keep and use the contraband that they get off of traitors whereas any other non-antag on the ship would be immediately arrested for doing so and, honestly, expecting one security guard to arrest another is probably unlikely because they'll see the use in it themselves.

In any event, it was a fun round all things considered, even though I did get arrested at the end. Any clarification to the above would be appreciated! Thanks.

[lumipharon]

That's perfectly acceptable behavior (rules wise, and IC wise in this case) - just keep in mind if the borg does antag things (killing randoms etc) the non antag sec guy will get banned for it.
If you emag a borg, you are responsible for it's actions.

[Scones]

I don't see a problem with this. If Security is emagging borgs for no reason then there is a problem, but creative use of captured contraband to destroy a major threat is just clever thinking

because it's kind of a bad precedent to say that Security are allowed to keep and use the contraband that they get off of traitors whereas any other non-antag on the ship would be immediately arrested for doing so and, honestly, expecting one security guard to arrest another is probably unlikely because they'll see the use in it themselves.

So you think they should just let the tools they aquire rot in the contraband locker? They need all the help they can get

[callanrockslol]

I don't see a problem with this. If Security is emagging borgs for no reason then there is a problem, but creative use of captured contraband to destroy a major threat is just clever thinking

because it's kind of a bad precedent to say that Security are allowed to keep and use the contraband that they get off of traitors whereas any other non-antag on the ship would be immediately arrested for doing so and, honestly, expecting one security guard to arrest another is probably unlikely because they'll see the use in it themselves.

So you think they should just let the tools they aquire rot in the contraband locker? They need all the help they can get

Its like the HoS with an ebow wrecking criminals or the captain with revolvers or assistants tackling people down and suicide bombing with minibombs, tools will be used by whoever gets them.

[Arete]

Space law is not server policy. Security operates under the same rules as the rest of the crew, and the only parts that apply specifically to them are those that relate to the powerful tools they start the round with (in particular the access and weaponry to easily take people out of the round). If they wind up with powerful toys as a result of events during the round, there's no reason to forbid them from using those toys.

[ParadoxPancake]

Fair enough! Question answered. Thanks all.

[bandit]

I dunno, I think there's a common-sense line. Like, emagging a door because there's a murder/syndie/rabid slime/whatever attacking an innocent on the other side and you have no access? OK. Emagging a borg? Ennnnnhh this kind of falls over the line for me.

[CPTANT]

I dunno, I think there's a common-sense line. Like, emagging a door because there's a murder/syndie/rabid slime/whatever attacking an innocent on the other side and you have no access? OK. Emagging a borg? Ennnnnhh this kind of falls over the line for me.

I see absolutely no problem with security emagging the borgs of a subverted AI.

This almost never happens anyway. No idea why someone would want to take out that last bit of free will security has left.

[Ahammer18]

If there is sufficient IC justification, I can see how emagging borgs would be reasonable. If there was a blob, for instance, emmagging the security borg would give them a laser gun to help fight. The emmagger would be fully responsible for the actions of the borg, however.

[Cik]

in this case it's functionally identical to cutting the lawsync wire, anyway. the same thing could have happened to a borg that wasn't emagged but was simply unslaved

"borg tell me who subverted the AI law two"
"okay"
"borg the AI is harmful, go kill it"
"okay"

it would accept both commands as long as you said you wouldn't kill the guy when you caught him. most borgs would probably comply.

[Takeguru]

Borg probably shouldn't tell you who the subverter was though.

Odds are, he's going to get harmed if his name is dropped.

[Kelenius]

Unless security has been proven to be harmful in the past, you can expect them to nonharmfully detain and perma the guy.

[Takeguru]

As far as I'm aware, it's not meta to assume harm is going to result from such an action.

So, I'll sit by and wait for the once every 3 months this sort of situation comes up.

[imblyings]

You can assume either way but you'll want to be consistent with your reasoning and thinking.

[Takeguru]

Tell security the name of tator tot, he'll get dunked hard
Don't tell, he doesn't get dunked hard

Pretty simple.

[bandit]

I dunno, I think there's a common-sense line. Like, emagging a door because there's a murder/syndie/rabid slime/whatever attacking an innocent on the other side and you have no access? OK. Emagging a borg? Ennnnnhh this kind of falls over the line for me.

I see absolutely no problem with security emagging the borgs of a subverted AI.

This almost never happens anyway. No idea why someone would want to take out that last bit of free will security has left.

Oh wait I missed the part where AI was subverted because I'm a dumbfuck. Yeah that's cool.

[oranges]

If someone emags me and then gives me no orders and I start murderboning, who is legally responsible?

edit:A nonantag emags me

[Saegrimr]

Probably you, for putting your syndicate agent at risk of being murdered for creating a murderborg, violating your laws.

[Tornadium]

Probably you, for putting your syndicate agent at risk of being murdered for creating a murderborg, violating your laws.

What if you don't murderborg and one of the non-humans kills your syndicate agent?

You're violating your laws through inaction.

[Saegrimr]

Then you're free to murder the fuck out of that person.

There's a huge difference between "No orders, time to kill everyone" and "Owner is being harmed, time to kill them."

[Not-Dorsidarf]

So if you murder people with total discretion it's fine?

[CPTANT]

So if you murder people with total discretion it's fine?

Treat them the same as lizards under asimov. Don't kill them without reason, but as soon as a lizard harms a human or you are ordered to kill one, harmbaton it to death and toss it out an airlock.