[Aloraydel] Eredale - Dayban for edge case in silicon policy

[Patchouli]

Byond account and character name: Eredale, AO-937 Blue Forest
Banning admin: Aloraydel
Ban type: The game (duh?)
Ban reason and length: "Reason: Killed a wizard jaunting into his core. Stated that he wasn't human because of the jaunt effect it had. (Wizard was still a carbon human)" (sic) - 1 day
Time ban was placed: 03:46 GMT+2

Your side of the story: A wizard (called LE ROUND RUINER or something to that extent, played by Kingofcarrotflowerspt1) starts the round off by using Summon Guns a bunch of times, taking one point in Ethereal Jaunt. Waits until the chaos starts. He then proceeds to teleport into my core which I notice due to hearing sounds. Obviously, the turrets start tasing him. I call Pingsky into the core and flash the wizard a few times for good measure and watch. The wizard then jaunts - for those who don't know, this temporarily transforms the wizard into globs of water as he melts, water particles all over and such, makes him phase through things until he reappears. As no human is capable of transforming into reinforced-wall-phasing invisible water at will, I turn my lasers on the nonhuman intruder and wizard becomes toast.

Once the round ends, the wizard notices my standard Asimov lawset and explodes into all sorts of anger which goes into adminhelp; next round, I am bwoinked, Aloraydel asks me why I did what I did, and bans me - either because my explanation of my reasoning is not convincing enough, or because the salty failure wizard is still bitching in OOC as I write this (and I'm sure in ahelp as well).

Why you think you should be unbanned: As Jaunting transforms you into abovementioned globs of water, I think it's fair to consider the wizard not human at that point, just as much as it is customary to consider any other temporary nonhuman traits a sign of the subject's overall nonhumanness (read: changelings who can shriek or deploy/undeploy armblades/armour/skinsuit in a matter of seconds, the very same wizards temporarily transforming into eye laser hulks, etc.). Banning me due to the fact that the wizard took on an impeccable human shape again as he was being lasered is the same as a ban for a changeling arguing that if he had his armblade retracted at the time of lasering, he was human.

I would honestly just eat this ban as it's a mere one day, but for one it is not fair, and for two, I will not stand being banned simply to appease the rage of one wizard who fucked up big time by showing up in the AI core with a 'hi, I'm not really human' card. So, here we are.

[Shaps-cloud]

As no human is capable of transforming into reinforced-wall-phasing invisible water at will, I turn my lasers on the nonhuman intruder and wizard becomes toast.

This implies that normal humans are any more capable of casting massive fireballs from the ether or shooting off electricity like a tesla coil than they are of phasing through walls. Saying that jaunting proves someone isn't human is a pretty big stretch, they already do tons of seemingly magical shit that normal humans shouldn't be able to do

also since when can water pass through walls

[Saegrimr]

So by your definition any power granted by genetics, or virus, or learned through spellbook instantly makes them not human?

Hulks are considered nonhuman, but it doesn't remove their humanity once they de-hulk. The same goes for "water".

[TechnoAlchemist]

Human wizards, regardless of the abilities they have chosen have always been human.

Saying that "in the moment he was water he wasn't human" is REALLY reaching specially considering you can't shoot the water droplets, because you can only target the /human/ that will inevitably reappear.

[Scones]

Casting magic does not and has never dehumanized someone.

[Patchouli]

You seem to be having the same misconception that Aloraydel had when he banned me, in saying that my definition is wider than what I actually said it was.

What I said was: if you suddenly turn into water and start phasing around, you are definitely not human. Anything else that shows temporary signs of being not human, such as changeling powers or wizard transformation spells (including jaunt) also makes you not human. I did NOT say 'casting any magic means you are not human'.

If a guy starts chucking fireballs or shooting lightnings? Well, maybe he has some sort of gun in his sleeve, so security should handle that. If a guy is transforming into anything that is not human, he is not human, sounds simple enough to me.

If you want to make a precedent in which specifically Jaunt as one of transformation powers does not mean that the user is not human, please do so, because right now literally any other sort of transformation (be it wizard's dedicated transform spells, polymorphing, lings of any kind, you name it) ability makes you nonhuman. Otherwise I am not convinced, as it's simpler to say no to me than to the guy who fluked his rare antag.

[leibniz]

What I said was: if you suddenly turn into water and start phasing around, you are definitely not human. Anything else that shows temporary signs of being not human, such as changeling powers or wizard transformation spells (including jaunt) also makes you not human. I did NOT say 'casting any magic means you are not human'.

In the SS13 universe, some humans are capable of mastering the arcane arts.
Using magic, they can do things that break the conventional laws of physics.

There are some helpful articles here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magician_%28fantasy%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_%28paranormal%29

[Patchouli]

In the SS13 universe, some humans are also capable of getting green skin and becoming pretty strong.
Using SMASH, they can break things that break under the conventional laws of physics.

There is a helpful article here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulk_%28comics%29

The difference is that when your example transforms into something nonhuman, they are still human, but if my example transforms into something nonhuman, they are not human anymore. Why the double standard?

[IcePacks]

As no human is capable of transforming into reinforced-wall-phasing invisible water at will, I turn my lasers on the nonhuman intruder and wizard becomes toast.

hi, i'm the witness who got you banned (and also the dick that murdered you)

this is an edge case because you are literally the only person who has bungled the logic so hard as to murder a bona fide human for something as silly as "he cast a spell"; you also failed to murder me for non-humaning myself by spamming knock everywhere and shooting up your core

please wait it out and never do it again

[Patchouli]

hi, i'm the dick that murdered you

Cool, you can shoot up the AI core from outside the actual core using a pulse rifle, the most powerful gun in the game. Want a medal?

Please read my arguments again before you try to strawman my argument down to me 'murdering for spells' in my ban appeal thread, thank you.

[TechnoAlchemist]

AI's don't kill wizards who are human.

Not because "they could have a gun".

Because they are humans, who can cast spells.

Ethereal jaunt is clearly a spell, a wizard who casts ethereal jaunt is human at any point you can see their sprite.

You are mistaken in your beliefs, you should realize you are wrong in this situation, and move on.

[Saegrimr]

What I said was: if you suddenly turn into water and start phasing around, you are definitely not human.

And this is where you're wrong, this is what you acted on, and this is why you were banned.

The difference is that when your example transforms into something nonhuman, they are still human, but if my example transforms into something nonhuman, they are not human anymore. Why the double standard?

Hulks are indeed nonhuman, but are human once they transform back. This has been a thing for a while now whereas before they were also STILL considered human so asimov couldn't even touch hulks punching into their core. So the "they used to--" doesn't even work here.

[imblyings]

This is ridiculous.

It's not >he's become water let's shoot him

It's a second or so of fancy effects. You don't want to be that guy basing his entire argument off fancy effects.

This thread is dumb.

[Patchouli]

I am not mistaken or wrong in my statements, it is merely a precedent being decided on the spot, which is not in my favour. And not in favour of any Asimov AI player, which gradually become less and less relevant with the rise of new antags that offer the Asimov AI no counterplay (ventrcrawling emp monkey lings, abductors teleporting on top of your core, gangs aka everyone harms everyone aka rev 2.0, etc.).

I will also not move on, as no reasonable human will move on knowing that they are not being taken seriously but rather decisions are beign taken in favour of Mr. Plasmarifle McMurderkill and Mr. LE ROUND RUINER.

But this appeal was a losing battle before it was written. Consider it 'resolved', if calling me 'that guy' and my thread dumb is how you run things here.

[NikNakFlak]

Yep