ei nath nerfs and drama and stuff

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:29 pm #108136

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10922

tedward1337 · Post by **tedward1337** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:34 pm #108137

QUIT GRUDGECODING

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:44 pm #108142

Wouldn't it be a good idea to wait a day with coding after you lose in a round?

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:48 pm #108143

leibniz wrote:Wouldn't it be a good idea to wait a day with coding after you lose in a round?

This

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:41 pm #108151

i literally didnt even die

if i wanted nothing to happen all round i would go play on bay

ColonicAcid · Post by **ColonicAcid** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:51 pm #108154

That's bias.
A lot of things happen in Bay. I heard they removed wizard friend, perhaps you should play there.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:56 pm #108157

i ment "if i wanted nothing to happen all round i would force extended with my illegitimately gained admin powers"

Oldman Robustin · Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:58 pm

I hate this style of knee-jerk coding but as a practical matter he's got a compelling argument. I'm totally fine with ei nath's supreme lethality, but the fact is that it encourages a truly cancerous wizard playstyle. Wizard should be compelled to stick around and engage in actual combat (the kind that has reasonable counterplay) if he wants to murderbone, ei nath just encourages jaunt + point-blank MM out of the jaunt + ei nath + teleport/jaunt into a hidden maint area and wait 60 seconds.

Again I'm cool with wizards power right now but I'm not happy when one of the most robust strategies involves spending 95% of your time hiding in a maint. locker.

onleavedontatme · Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:10 pm

Miauw wrote:
if i wanted nothing to happen all round i would go play on bay

Aren't you the guy who kept telling me to "go roleplay" when I complained all the antags and deadly stuff got nerfed?

Shoulda gone and chatted in the space bar.

Anyway the wizard being a slippery bastard who murders people one by one while warping everywhere is not something you're gonna solve by nerfing EI NATH, and it's not something you can really solve without killing the wizard as an antag since he needs to fight so many people on his own.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:16 pm #108162

i don't care about the lethality of ei nath, i care about the cancer that is uncatchable GITTAH WEIGHT/jaunt/MM wizards. make them less mobile and more deadly, or give them purpose built control that aren't all HURR DURR INSTASTUN JAUNT AWAY :^) spells and ti'd be fine.

wizard should be like nukeop in that they are extremely dangerous to everything nearby but can eventually be pinned down. it should be incentivized for them to stay on the battlefield so to speak for more than a 5 second period. as it is i'd imagine that like 90% of wizards take the same fucking spells because they are clearly so much better than the rest of the kit, boasting improved lethality, escape options, utility, etc etc. something needs to be done to that combo in particular because it's all i see and it's "uncounterable" in the sense that there is really no counterplay besides being lucky enough to hit the wizard with a baton just before he jaunts, which when played properly simply never happens.

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:20 pm #108163

Cik wrote:i don't care about the lethality of ei nath, i care about the cancer that is uncatchable GITTAH WEIGHT/jaunt/MM wizards. make them less mobile and more deadly, or give them purpose built control that aren't all HURR DURR INSTASTUN JAUNT AWAY :^) spells and ti'd be fine.

wizard should be like nukeop in that they are extremely dangerous to everything nearby but can eventually be pinned down. it should be incentivized for them to stay on the battlefield so to speak for more than a 5 second period. as it is i'd imagine that like 90% of wizards take the same fucking spells because they are clearly so much better than the rest of the kit, boasting improved lethality, escape options, utility, etc etc. something needs to be done to that combo in particular because it's all i see and it's "uncounterable" in the sense that there is really no counterplay besides being lucky enough to hit the wizard with a baton just before he jaunts, which when played properly simply never happens.

Currently mobility is necessary since wizards have the same survivability as normal humans, while having to deal with crowds.
Maybe an alternative path should be available, which disables your movement spells but makes you really durable. (think of it as stoneskin, heavy armor etc in DaS or whatever)

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:27 pm #108164

crosspost:

you are supposed to get fucked 1v1 if you don't have a premeditated strat for dealing with a wizard, if you're caught flatfooted at the start of a round, congratulations you got fucked by fate. Beyond this though you should be adapting to a wizard who you know is there.

*Don't work alone
*Carry a ranged stun or work with someone who has one
*Craft hard counters or work on mob tactics
*Don't 1v1 the wizard
*DON'T FUCKING 1V1 THE WIZARD
*DON'T DO IT
*IT'S DUMB
*YOU'RE GOING TO LOSE
*AND THEN CLAIM IT'S OVERPOWERED BULLSHIT
*AND GRUDGE CODE
*AND I'M GONNA HAVE TO MAKE THIS POST

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:30 pm #108167

leibniz wrote:
Cik wrote:i don't care about the lethality of ei nath, i care about the cancer that is uncatchable GITTAH WEIGHT/jaunt/MM wizards. make them less mobile and more deadly, or give them purpose built control that aren't all HURR DURR INSTASTUN JAUNT AWAY :^) spells and ti'd be fine.

wizard should be like nukeop in that they are extremely dangerous to everything nearby but can eventually be pinned down. it should be incentivized for them to stay on the battlefield so to speak for more than a 5 second period. as it is i'd imagine that like 90% of wizards take the same fucking spells because they are clearly so much better than the rest of the kit, boasting improved lethality, escape options, utility, etc etc. something needs to be done to that combo in particular because it's all i see and it's "uncounterable" in the sense that there is really no counterplay besides being lucky enough to hit the wizard with a baton just before he jaunts, which when played properly simply never happens.
Currently mobility is necessary since wizards have the same survivability as normal humans, while having to deal with crowds.
Maybe an alternative path should be available, which disables your movement spells but makes you really durable. (think of it as stoneskin, heavy armor etc in DaS or whatever)

they need more control spells, and i think with the hand system that's in use (coming into use ?) you could do it. i mean really, the sky's the limit on new spells that could be added. it's wizard, nothing has to be justified because of fucking magic

spells i could easily see

lightning field: absorbs taser shots, shocks nearby people with lightning bolts
skin like diamond: makes wizard into enormously difficult to kill golem, disables jaunt
fire/icewall: creates walls of searing cold or heat, can be drawn freehand. limited "block" amount, regenerates slowly
mesmerize: relatively long "sleep" that is broken instantly if target is damaged
windwall: deflects projectiles in short range around the wizard (doesn't necessarily have to reflect, just throws them to the side)
cone of cold: medium range cone attack, makes people cold and does damage
color spray: short range cone stun, recharges faster than MM
grease: slips people, enhances potency of fireball on tiles with grease
meteor: like fireball, it's a fireball. unlike fireball, it's FUCKING HUGE. should probably explode like a bomb.
hellfire: area denial spell, causes a rain of hellfire that burns and catches people on fire if they step in it for a little while.
freakish rain: area denial spell, mutates people who step in it, thanks dwarf fortress :^)
manse: illusory wizard house, has nice food, medical supplies, etc. activated by clicking on a block the manse is bound to. can be entered by nonwizards if they find the right place.

yeah i don't know man i could do this shit all day just pulling random shit from everquest and d7d

the wizard really needs control or damage alternatives to the MM/jaunt shit. a blaster wizard loaded down with pure death and say a scrying spell should be able to win, and a control wizard with tons of control should be able to win. as it is they get demolished, so they only thing you see are these uncatchable wizards that just dance around with 2+ escape spells and bore everyone to death.

Stickymayhem · Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:39 pm

>Nothing happens all round
>Time to make the antags weaker

You realize people choose options like this because they are safe and effective and everything else can get them fucking murdered in 8 seconds.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:45 pm #108170

Stickymayhem wrote:>Nothing happens all round
>Time to make the antags weaker

You realize people choose options like this because they are safe and effective and everything else can get them fucking murdered in 8 seconds.

nobody is arguing that wizards need to be weaker you big dummy, we're arguing that this effectively uncatchable combo is parroted by fucking everybody, has no real counterplay and spawns countless rounds where the antag involvement is essentially to appear from no where and blow you up and/or to do nothing to you at all, then 30 minutes later either he dies due to a fuckup or the shuttle is called and everybody leaves after doing nothing really interesting.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:54 pm #108171

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_effort

---

The original plan when flesh to stone was added was that it was to eventually replace ei nath as the "round remover" spell. Over time though I realized how iconic ei nath was to wizards and I couldn't bring myself to drop the axe.

I've nerfed the spell about as hard as one can without sacrificing its iconic properties. I don't think people really are appreciating the nerfs yet. Remember that wizards can't ei nath you while stunned, on the floor, or cuffed anymore. As more people realize the avenues this opens in terms of counterplay I expect the nath to get a little less used, but until people git gud about this it's still going to seem strong.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:57 pm #108172

Stickymayhem wrote:>Nothing happens all round
>Time to make the antags weaker

You realize people choose options like this because they are safe and effective and everything else can get them fucking murdered in 8 seconds.

>nothing happens all round
>lets make antag less stealthy

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:02 pm #108177

Why are you trying to nerf ei'nath when clearly the issue is wizards being slippery pete with 2-4 mobility/defensive spells?

Ei'nath simply happens to work well with that setup because it doesn't require you to stick around to kill people.

Ei'nath is fine.
Being uncatchable slippery pete is not so much.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:04 pm #108179

Never forget x5 blink greased up deaf wizard

onleavedontatme · Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:07 pm

Also because I love whining about movespeed I'm gonna declare that this is all slowspeeds fault because you can't run to catch up with jaunt/teleport anymore.

In all seriousness though the playstyle is shitty but until someone comes up with an alternative there is not really a substitute for classic wizard.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:23 pm #108188

IRON ARM

halves/cuts a quarter/(insert other % here) incoming damage, and gives you something like augments (making you immune to low damage shit like punching).
Increases your base punch damage, and makes you slowly heal when you're not moving.

Combine with hulk for ultimate MUSCLEWIZARD.

Basically wiz needs spells/items that make it less reliant of RUNNING THE FUCK AWAY constantly.

Stickymayhem · Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:48 pm

INCOMING MAKE TANKWIZARD A THING

onleavedontatme · Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:58 pm

Stickymayhem wrote:INCOMING MAKE TANKWIZARD A THING

Tankwizard would just be a numbers game of whether or not the wizard has enough health/damage to fight X crewmates, it wouldn't be very much fun I don't think.

Oldman Robustin · Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:51 pm

Incoming wrote: *DON'T FUCKING 1V1 THE WIZARD
*DON'T DO IT
*IT'S DUMB
*YOU'RE GOING TO LOSE
*AND THEN CLAIM IT'S OVERPOWERED BULLSHIT
*AND GRUDGE CODE
*AND I'M GONNA HAVE TO MAKE THIS POST

Part of the problem with current wizard meta (and its always been the meta) is that you don't get to pick your wizard fights, the wizard picks you. I've been gibbed in my office at roundstart enough to know that a wizard rushing you with MM is a real and scary thing, the door open delay ensures that you're not getting out alive if the magic memester catches you in a room with him.

But beyond the epic wizard meta, ei nath means that 1vAnything don't mean shit. You could fit the entire crew on the bridge and the wizard could still easily SCAR NYLA BRIDGE, MM, Ei Nath the nearest head of staff, and then jaunt into a dorm room or something and bolt the door (And dont mention the AI, that's the first to go with an ei nath magicman). With staff of animation/fireball/mutate/etc. you can't murder in a split second and get out, being forced to take 10+ seconds to secure a kill means that staying in a group might actually mean something since your buddies will have a chance to rush to your aid and/or attack the wizard.

Nobody is arguing that wizard shouldnt be a 1v1 dunkmaster, what many of us are saying is that ei nath is the epitome of wizard cancer (well besides 5x magic/event rounds) because you never actually fight the bastard, you're just chasing his shadow in a trail of gibs and salt. I can't remember the last time I got EI REKT but Miauw perfectly describes how I remember those rounds, boring as hell, maybe exciting for 3 seconds as you see the blue mist form next to you and you rush for the door only to get OUTPLAYED (tm) by MM+Disintegrate and before anyone even realizes the wizard was there he's back off in a maint locker recharging his SKILL.

Oldman Robustin · Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:57 pm

Incoming wrote:Never forget x5 blink greased up deaf wizard

This should also be a teaching point. No matter how shitty wizard seems and how inevitable the "HIDE N SEEK CONTEST" seems, even a little bit of chemo goes a long way. Nothing will ever be worse than the old "GOOD LUCK TARGETING ME I'M BEHIND 9,001 SMOKE CLOUDS" blink wizard.

rockpecker · Post by **rockpecker** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:52 pm #108228

Cik wrote:i don't care about the lethality of ei nath, i care about the cancer that is uncatchable GITTAH WEIGHT/jaunt/MM wizards. make them less mobile and more deadly, or give them purpose built control that aren't all HURR DURR INSTASTUN JAUNT AWAY :^) spells and ti'd be fine.

Countering this: Maybe wizards shouldn't be able to jaunt if ANY of their spells are on cooldown?

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:37 pm #108240

I was more pointing out that crazy build wizards are always going to be more memorable than people who take "the standard loadout"

Also x5 blink wizard isn't so op now because you can target guns on void tiles and shoot through the smoke

And that's really how people need to look at their wizard rounds: you're getting a huge chance to pull bullshit, don't waste it going for the ei nath highscore unless you have to escape alone or something.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Lich is a great crutch if you want to be an entertaining-for-everybody wizard, but only if you telegraph the AI first, which kinda sucks for the AI.

Otoh, AIs are usually cancerous during wizard rounds anyway, for both sides, so go ahead.

Incomptinence · Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:03 am

Only lich of their current powers really makes them more durable that or restoration apprentice but these guys can't wear competitive armour of any sort so a healer tank set up never happens.

For a straight up fight against 5 or so guys with lethal weapons coming potentially from all around you which is what would happen if you didn't teleport you would either need to be bullshit immune to most of it like having an energy shield or just stupidly durable and probably stun resistant too.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:20 am #108340

Lich and multimeme sword are both things that need to be removed from normal wizard.
Lich is just 'lel enchant a random epipen and hide it in a emergency oxygen kit inside of a locker in maint/outside the station/in a fucking safe/other place no one can ever possibly find it'
memesword is just highlander with respawn turned on, AKA: infinite murderboning antags with murder swords.

Not-Dorsidarf · Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:49 am

lumipharon wrote:Lich and multimeme sword are both things that need to be removed from normal wizard.
Lich is just 'lel enchant a random epipen and hide it in a emergency oxygen kit inside of a locker in maint/outside the station/in a fucking safe/other place no one can ever possibly find it'
memesword is just highlander with respawn turned on, AKA: infinite murderboning antags with murder swords.

Yeah, Phylacteries should be automatically made weight_class 7, so they dont fit in anything.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:31 am #108389

lol i just had an idea

what if, when you take ei nath, it spawns every player a pinpointer that points towards the wizard.

(i'm not joking i think this might actually work)

mrpain · Post by **mrpain** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:52 am #108392

Miauw wrote:lol i just had an idea

what if, when you take ei nath, it spawns every player a pinpointer that points towards the wizard.

(i'm not joking i think this might actually work)

No.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:28 am #108404

oh right sorry i came into the feedback forum looking for feedback my bad

Stickymayhem · Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:04 pm

Miauw wrote:oh right sorry i came into the feedback forum looking for feedback my bad

That was feedback

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:49 pm #108446

no it wasnt

Post by **Jacquerel** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:03 pm #108449

"No, that idea is bad" is feedback. It didn't really merit any more than that.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:41 pm #108452

its not feedback

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:51 pm #108454

As you said yourself Miauw Ei-Nath is a symptom of wizards being able to easily get out of combat. I don't think nerfing disinteg or any other offensive ability will cut it.

As I suggested maybe look at limiting the amount of escape spells you can take.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:54 pm #108456

ei nath is the most annoying thing with easy escape spells.

pinpointer solution is a bit silly but would allow people to keep pressure on the wizard and prevent him from hiding.

Post by **Jacquerel** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:28 pm #108461

feed·back
ˈfēdˌbak/Submit
noun
noun: feedback
1.
information about reactions to a product, a person's performance of a task, etc., used as a basis for improvement.
synonyms: response, reaction, comments, criticism;

"No" is information about someone's reaction, it is used as a basis for improvement by deciding not to perform that idea.
Giving everyone on the station a pinpointer that points to the wizard is a lazy bandaid that doesn't actually solve anything, fucks over mulliganed rounds, and is generally just absurd. I'm sure it was a joke suggestion, which is all the more reason that just saying "no" is an adequate response.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:41 pm #108479

Giving everyone on the station a pinpointer that points to the wizard is a lazy bandaid that doesn't actually solve anything, fucks over mulliganed rounds

this is what i am looking for.

Post by **Jacquerel** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:09 am #108632

ok except it's barely any different to just saying "no"
and is just as much "feedback" even if you like one more than the other

Post by **Fatal** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:29 am #108636

Jaunt is pretty much okay, but perhaps look at increasing the cooldown on blink by 2 seconds?

With the new lich stuff as well, a wizard that takes Jaunt, blink, and RISE? You may as well just not even try

Incomptinence · Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:00 am

Blink by its very nature of being so low cool down is the really broken one. Jaunt doesn't move you when stunned for comparison.

Also luck based so you may never catch him because he gets lucky blinks though significant walls or he just pops up in front of a violent assistant or if super unlucky space without a gem suit for a light boiling.

Stickymayhem · Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm

Miauw wrote:no it wasnt

Then this wasn't feedback either

firecage · Post by **firecage** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:42 am #108807

Just saying "No" isn't feedback. Even saying: "I don't like this because it makes wizards weaker" is valid feedback.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:44 pm #108840

"No" is absolutely feedback. It's just really vague and annoying to hear. What you want is feedback of a certain quality, and while the bar is pretty low, "no" won't cut it.

Speaking of the thread, wizards are annoying because certain spell combinations are practically impossible to catch. Even a vaguely competent blink/smoke/teleport wizard won't ever die until they fuck up themselves (e.g. knocking themselves out), which is different from most game-modes where other people can out robust you. It's pretty easy to survive as a wizard but it can be much harder to get shit done, so you see a lot of wizards treading water in the station's trickiest game of tag.

To put it another way, wizards have an extremely robust assortment of defence spells, and tend to be more reluctant on the offence. Spells like magic missile and ethereal jaunt mean a wizard can rely on being fine if cornered. If you want wizards to be more offensive and less annoyingly twitchy, put limits on spell combinations (e.g. only one from the school of teleport, only one from the school of blood, only one from the school of transformation, etc).

A wizard hiding in lockers with ei nath isn't the problem, it's that he can instantly get away if he's ever caught shock. The spell ceases to carry risk as a result.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:05 pm #108874

handheld ei nath feels like a fine change

Pybro · Post by **Pybro** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:13 pm #108877

The issue with any nerf to Ei Nath is that you take remove the greatest fear of Wizard: Being removed from the round with absolutely no way of stopping it.

Movement is necessary for obvious reasons, but suppose you're the captain and that highly mobile wizard poofs into your office. Why do you juke the fuck out of there? Because he can remove you instantly. When the Wizard is dancing in the halls, why do people not simply mob him? Because he can remove you instantly (And no one wants to be the first to die). If you outright take that away from wizard you run into him having to rely even more on either things he's scavenged from the crew or using movement spells. Wizard has little way to outright KILL someone. Wound and maim or inconvenience, sure, but ei nath flat out zaps you to death.

If you want to nerf ei nath I'd suggest just making it so you cannot take it with magic missle. But, also add new stuff. Interesting spells. A 3 tile long acid breath, a spell that creates a gravity well where the wizard clicks, a spell to turn a door into a toothy yet stationary monster, etc.