Allow admins to change the map

[WineAllWine]

Admins can change a huge amount of things to make more fun but we cant do this.

[Vekter]

Wait, we can't? I thought we were allowed to.

[NecromancerAnne]

Admins can totally change the map. The only thing you shouldn't do is change the map because it is X map and you don't like X map, so you change it every time it enters rotation and you have access to the buttons. The latter of which is ostensibly a potential abuse of power if it happens to be a map you prefer and may potentially play in, and somewhat harmful to the mapping side of development if you're not giving a map its due or trying to push a narrative about the map's quality. Which has happened in the past.

If your goal was to argue for removing a map from rotation, it is better to let it go through and use the stats that it generates to make that case to the people who care (maptainers and maintainers) than be shown to keep changing the map if it is selected. Which looks more like an opinion you hold in particular and forcing through onto the server through your perms.

[Ezel]

alot of admins do this but atleast they host a event map the least so its some twist to some degree

[Jamarkus]

Admins can change a huge amount of things to make more fun but we cant do this.

YOU WILL NOT ENTER BUILD MODE. YOU WILL NOT REARRANGE THE CORPORATE SHOWROOM INTO A ZOO.

When was this ever a rule? Admins make changes to the map all the time. if you are referring to changing the map to a preferrable one, then shouldnt that fall on the players with their VOTE command? They voted for the map, even if the vote weight may not be preferrable. If the outcry is loud enough, then I think it OK once in a blue moon to swap the map to something more preferrable. not all the time. thats cherrypicking.

If this falls to editing the map while playing the game, then this rule has been broken for years.

wine can you add in the reference to the rule or give more context?

[Ezel]

Admins can change a huge amount of things to make more fun but we cant do this.

YOU WILL NOT ENTER BUILD MODE. YOU WILL NOT REARRANGE THE CORPORATE SHOWROOM INTO A ZOO.

When was this ever a rule? Admins make changes to the map all the time. if you are referring to changing the map to a preferrable one, then shouldnt that fall on the players with their VOTE command? They voted for the map, even if the vote weight may not be preferrable. If the outcry is loud enough, then I think it OK once in a blue moon to swap the map to something more preferrable. not all the time. thats cherrypicking.

If this falls to editing the map while playing the game, then this rule has been broken for years.

wine can you add in the reference to the rule or give more context?

Its moreso about the tally system kinda being overidden whenever catwalk or a similiar disliked station hits the rotation
but this is not editing the map itself its more about switching the map when tally system says catwalk but thrn admin switches it to something like rainstation(which kills the catwalk tally so it has to go trough full rotation again)

[WineAllWine]

Admins can change a huge amount of things to make more fun but we cant do this.

YOU WILL NOT ENTER BUILD MODE. YOU WILL NOT REARRANGE THE CORPORATE SHOWROOM INTO A ZOO.

When was this ever a rule? Admins make changes to the map all the time. if you are referring to changing the map to a preferrable one, then shouldnt that fall on the players with their VOTE command? They voted for the map, even if the vote weight may not be preferrable. If the outcry is loud enough, then I think it OK once in a blue moon to swap the map to something more preferrable. not all the time. thats cherrypicking.

If this falls to editing the map while playing the game, then this rule has been broken for years.

wine can you add in the reference to the rule or give more context?

My apologies, here is the ruling.

Changing the map in bad-faith to avoid a specific map you or others dislike is not permissible.
This does not include changing the map for events, to avoid game-breaking bugs (specifically, ones that prevent the entire game from functioning), or to run custom imported maps.
In addition, forcing re-votes until the map you want to be picked will lead to disciplinary measures.

I'll be honest, the wording is a lot less harsh than I remember

[WineAllWine]

Admins can totally change the map. The only thing you shouldn't do is change the map because it is X map and you don't like X map, so you change it every time it enters rotation and you have access to the buttons. The latter of which is ostensibly a potential abuse of power if it happens to be a map you prefer and may potentially play in, and somewhat harmful to the mapping side of development if you're not giving a map its due or trying to push a narrative about the map's quality. Which has happened in the past.

If your goal was to argue for removing a map from rotation, it is better to let it go through and use the stats that it generates to make that case to the people who care (maptainers and maintainers) than be shown to keep changing the map if it is selected. Which looks more like an opinion you hold in particular and forcing through onto the server through your perms.

I agree, it would be super lame if I just skipped a map that I didn't like whenever it came up, but if last round was everyone's favourite map but it ended after 9 minutes because of stealth nukies, I should be able to give the people what they want and force the map again. Under the current guidance I cannot.

[Ezel]

theoritically if nukies won the game forces the same map again but since somoene mapvotee early thats exactly not the case (and mapvotes happen automatically in escape shuttle transit) the woke option would disable player started mapvotes to prevent this from happening and if it gets to the shuttle it will start a mapvote anyways

[Jamarkus]

yadda yadda SNIP!

I agree, it would be super lame if I just skipped a map that I didn't like whenever it came up, but if last round was everyone's favourite map but it ended after 9 minutes because of stealth nukies, I should be able to give the people what they want and force the map again. Under the current guidance I cannot.

Where in the ruling does it say that?
I should also add that the current tallies sit at weighted, meaning that even if a map dosent win, its tallies are carried over to the next vote, giving it a higher chance at winning.

from what you defined, the ruling says...

Changing the map in bad-faith to avoid a specific map you or others dislike is not permissible.

How is the above bad faith? as an admin, the players got disheartened they didnt get to enjoy the map to its fullest. you arent changing the map because you personally hate that map, or that the players hate the map coming up, its more so that the players didnt actually get to enjoy the last map. sure, they can revote for it, but what if its tallies are very low? in this case, theres no rule being broken. Yes, you will get some players being pissy about you fucking with the map order, but the point is to make the majority happy. if you are doing this every time a 15 minute round plays out, then its bad faith, but if its once in a blue moon, its completely reasonable.

id also like to add:

In addition, forcing re-votes until the map you want to be picked will lead to disciplinary measures.

IDK how rocking the vote would work with it being weighted, but calling a revote to see if the players want to replay on the last map given the above context feels completely reasonable! If you were rocking the map vote because "I FUCKING HATE WAWA RAGHHHH I HATE IT UOUGHHHHH" then yeah, go get a bit of training, let the map be in rotation because what YOU care about dosent matter to the people playing the game, and what THEY care about shouldn't matter to an extent that the map never gets played.
(guys im not hating on wawa trust me it was the first map that popped into my head....wawa... hehehehe)

[Ezel]

I think best case is to disable map votes started by players
So rounds that end early (trough revs nukies delta ai) will just force the same map since mapvote doesnt happen untill in shuttle transit
That way short rounds will just get the same map again
and long rounds will immediatly cycle into another map

[Jamarkus]

I think best case is to disable map votes started by players
So rounds that end early (trough revs nukies delta ai) will just force the same map since mapvote doesnt happen untill in shuttle transit
That way short rounds will just get the same map again
and long rounds will immediatly cycle into another map

???? why not just make map votes time based then?

after 1 hour, let players vote. 1 hour is more than enough time that its not considered an early win or defeat, and if theres a shuttle call, that makes a difference BUT at least the crew willingly called it.

[Ezel]

I think best case is to disable map votes started by players
So rounds that end early (trough revs nukies delta ai) will just force the same map since mapvote doesnt happen untill in shuttle transit
That way short rounds will just get the same map again
and long rounds will immediatly cycle into another map

???? why not just make map votes time based then?

after 1 hour, let players vote. 1 hour is more than enough time that its not considered an early win or defeat, and if theres a shuttle call, that makes a difference BUT at least the crew willingly called it.

That would make the most sense but rounds always varies for time
But however when i said disable mapvotes by players is moreso as policy cant promise codechanges where auto mapvote based on time would require it though it would make the most sense system wise

[Ezel]

Sorry bur im double posting here
a hour is a bit too much i'd say average round is 35-50 minutes

[WineAllWine]

Some very reasonable points

This is all very reasonable. The initial ruling, which I believe was made by chesify made it more clear we were not allowed to change the map just because players didnt liike it. I would for the outcome of this policy thread to be clarity of when admins are or are not allowed to change the map.

[NecromancerAnne]

I agree, it would be super lame if I just skipped a map that I didn't like whenever it came up, but if last round was everyone's favourite map but it ended after 9 minutes because of stealth nukies, I should be able to give the people what they want and force the map again. Under the current guidance I cannot.

Iunno, that doesn't seem against the spirit of the restriction. That's still ostensibly acting as a GM. Not for personal biases. I'm not sure that you would be violating conduct if that is your justification.

[TheFinalPotato]

I think you have effectively argued your own point into ash. What you want to do is already permitted by the ruling, so what exactly do you want to change? It's never gonna be exact cause you guys are all about operating off vibes and such and so on.

[TheLoLSwat]

Admins change the map all the time, they just call a vote for it. I don’t know if you want that system to be codified but it’s perfect the way it is (even if sometimes it’s frustrating losing out on a map you want to play on)

[iain0]

Doesn't seem to be too much to add to this thread, nor particularly a need to change the policy.

For clarification sake, bad reasons to change map include dislike of the map, a round you're going to play, players hollering in OOC about maps etc. Your suggestion regarding a ten minute round sounds fine to recycle the current map, similarly any event that benefits from a particular map is also a fine reason to change.

Loosely the goals are anti admin-abuse (benefiting, particularly intentionally, from your own actions) but also to leave some fairness for maps to be played (i.e. no anti specific map behaviours). Beyond that, if you can argue a case that isn't in bad faith, worst case probably is an announcement saying "please don't do this".

At the end of the day head admins are just admins of admins, much the same way a player can explain why they made a decision and your job as an admin is to think into that mindset, see if you buy it and it all seems consistent, reasonable, and makes sense, the same is applied if reviewing admin decisions, we're not looking for excuses to "sink" an admin, just keep the fair spirit towards all involved parties (players and mappers) and all should be fine.