On the question of basic job expectations and LRP.

[LlarenHlaalo]

Hello candidates. This following question may be a tiny bit redundant in view of the one posted by Dendydoom in regards to hypothetical changes to Dynamic, nevertheless I feel it touches a broader spectrum of jobs in this case.

I've seen this debate spark several times on different Discord channels recently and there are a lot of various opinions on this.

As it stands right now, we have many situations in rounds where members of the department don't perform their basic duties due to some other factors. With the biggest culprits in this being Engineering and Security. I'm sure many of us have seen the situation where engineers completely disregard their duty when it comes to supplying station with power be it SM crystal or Solars. Some players sign up just for the free access to tools, insuls and good ID card just in case they roll antag. Others want to do their Gigamega100%proof contained SIngulo and they leave the department immediately to start building all the necessary devices for it. And so on and so forth.
Now on the one hand we have an argument that this behaviour comes at the cost of other players having more problems and less fun. Chemists can only try to mix something from their chem storage. Bitrunners cant do ANYTHING at all.(And it would appear Bitrunning Den tends to lose it's power very fast and very early on many maps). On the other hand there's an argument to be made that doing gimmicks like singulo or some funky disposals systems is part of the charm on the server and that we shouldnt force them to play how we think they should play. Both arguments have their merit in some ways.

Now when it comes to Security, it's a bit different and may just be related to the aformentioned Dynamic system in place. At this moment, it feels like Security deparment exists for the sole purpose of hunting antags. Now this wouldn't be an issue on it's own, however I've seen many many cases where even during rather calm rounds, members of the security department don't bother doing anything in regards to minor crimes. Or sometimes even major crimes, if crime in question is not antag-related.

• Exhibit A: Mr.Greyshirt dismantles Library for the sake of wood. Mr.Curator protests, argument gets hot and full of anger and ends up in the fight. Problem is. Mr.Greyshirt is a pretty robust player, whereas Mr.Curator is not. Curator loses and gets beaten up to near crit. So the latter not only got his library raided and robbed against his wishes, but he cannot even respond in force. So Mr. Curator goes to sec to complain and the best response he can get is: we'll look at it(they won't). Or quite often it's something along the lines of "skill issue".

• Exhibit B: Mr.Pinkshirt shoves Mr.Bartender into the wall. Takes his ID, steals his money and runs away laughing. Bartender goes to sec and....well the ending is pretty much the same as in the previous example. It doesnt matter that Bartender may need this money for this or that, for some gimmick or bottles or glasses in his vendor. For security this assault and robbery is not an issue, because who knows. Maybe in the next 5-10-20 minutes they will encounter someone using chems from Poison Kit or whatever.

Both examples are kinda tame. There are worse cases. But they are quite real. Just like in the case of engineering department there are different opinions on this, you could argue that sec is behaving rationally and pragmatic, since antags can pose larger threat to the station. On the other hand, for some sec players putting some unruly player in the cell or placing a fine etc, may seem "booooring". And there's another argument that basically boils down to the fact that not every player on the server is robust and he may/should expect some assitance from security in case something goes wrong and may require some application of lethal/non-lethal force. As it stands right now, this petty crime and various resolutions to it are outsourced to Admins in most egregious cases, even though many of these ahelps could be resolved ICly by security.

Sorry for the long post. I'm curious to see what you think about this.

[Maxipat]

Hi hello, gonna speak about LRP here since i think the issue is more prevalent here

As far as engineering goes, i think as long as SOMEONE sets up the SM it's fine, doing gimmicks like singulo is part of their job and i dont want to blame them. If someone picks engineering just for the tools and access and then goes validhunting or tries rolling antag i think it's a bigger problem, but not something that's not already enforceable from admin-side, validhunting is TECHNICALLY against the rules (rule 4 and often rule 3) and antag rolling is just antag rolling. If nobody bothers setting up the SM, i'd rather see it resolved ICly than punish engineering players administratively (most cases), things like centcomm announcements or sending an intern to encourage/soft force engineering to do their job i think is a good way out of it.

For security, the issue is i think just player culture and handling non-antag crimes not being rewarding. Again, i don't want to FORCE players to do their job administratively, since sec is already scrutinized a lot under more rules than average joe, but i would like to send a centcomm delegation to "check how well sec is doing their jobs". Forcing them by policy would just make sec players stop playing sec and validhunt as assistants or other jobs (which is way harder to notice and enforce administratively). And of course i can't blame sec players ignoring someone tiding into say, chemistry when theres a bigger known threat around.

[TheRex9001]

I believe we've tried out a policy like this and in my mind it didn't end well. In any case, for engi just have someone set up the SM and I think thats reasonably good enough. Someone just using the engi loot to tide and be a shit is already covered by other rules.

In securities case I think dealing with non-antags being shits gets kinda tiring and I don't blame sec players for turning a blind eye on it. There is also usually some sort of big threat running around thats higher on secs priority list but in my experience I do think security players do help with non antag crime, you can yell one over if there is any sort of violence usually.

[iansdoor]

Howdy,
Basic job expectations are something that is required for a round to function properly. I do lean away McGreyshirt or McEngineershirt deconstructing breaking other players areas without good IC reasoning. This is on LRP, MRP HRP, European RP. If an admin or myself bwoinks them and they really cannot explain why they did sucha action or what the story behind the action is. Either they told to fix it from an admin, or don't play for that round. I have had plenty of tickets of folks RCD'ing open bridge for no reason and they were forced to replace it. I always make the distinction that I am not Centcom asking them to do this. I am applying the rule 1, don't be a space asshole and fix what you broke. I have never enjoyed mister robusto with better ping and clicks, destroying my workspace when they could have signed up for that job to do so. They can ask for blank out of my area, and I can then make a request of them to make a social contract.

Basic jobs from LRP
Engineering has to ensure that power is on within a timely manner and check the wires around the SMES.
Security has to have evidence to do their job. No half measure in guessing to be the shit security that they could be. There is a rule, which if someone does something enough, then you don't have to completely gather evidence, you know that X is making bombs and is going to proximity n2o nade every airlock. That is not fun.
Medical is iffy, since folks enjoy tending basic wounds on stasis bed. As long as they stop others from stealing their patients crap. That is the bottom line.
Cargo, really doesn't have obligation, other than don't antagonize security with mass buying security crap.
Mining, doesn't have an obligation, other than turning on the boulder machines. They tend to walk into lava or just die randomly, miner things.
Atmos, pump to 404kpa from the distro line and that is it.
Robotics, build something, anything and keep the shuttlers open incase someone requests something easy
Botany, don't turn on yellow trays for all in the beginning and don't steal from chemistry.
Kitchen, obligated to make 1 food item every 15 minutes via their contract.
Bar, don't be that guy thats full on racist
CE, try to keep the engineers from blowing up the SM
RD, pointless but keep watchful eye over insane folks
CMO, don't die to revs
HoS, keep watchful eye over the crew
Warden, never leave armory alone
Captain, don't lose the hat or disk.

[xzero314]

I started out playing on Sybil and eventually moved over to manual pretty much entirely due to examples like Exhibit A. On top of not really being able to actually learn and do my job. Since if somebody thought I was too slow they would just come in and do it.
I do have fond memories of some of my first warden rounds and having no idea what was going on as revolutions took over. ( I just realized I haven't seen a revolution on Manuel in ages).

So does Rule 5 require a rework then?
When we consider Sybil only I see expanding rule 5 to cover basic job expectations as something that could work. But there is also Terry to consider. I am not really sure how welcome or needed more responsibilities are on Terry

[Ezel]

I think the bare effort should be put in from all departments, engineering should atleast ensure setting up the supermatter and fixing breaches, i know most engineers ignore breaches and just treat the job slot as a better way to tide or build their crazy contraptions but i think fixing breaches should atleast be a priority to strive for longer rounds

I'd want security to the same degree as engineers, hunting evil syndicate is cool and all they still should be expected to enforce the law when the time comes to it that way we can give head roles a easier time with tiding instead of being overwhelmed and run over and not wanting to play head roles in the future.

I agree with ian Kitchen should be obligated to make atleast 1 food item every 15 minutes chef role which codewise is very protected from other players griefing the chef kinda became the job to bait others with by not meeting to these standards and then abusing their CQC to fuck with others.

I can't really say much about medical aslong they try to revive bodies and tend wounds and not loot(its a very bad mindset to check trough the stuff of anyone trying to find antag stuff)

Cargo should atleast attempt to bring the crates to the departments and get orders sorted out then kinda just wandering off and doing their own thing.

I personally think giving lawyers more authority with the fax machine to admins could create in more intresting situations like Paradise station has with their infernal affairs agent, so kinda a IC snitch that tells admins if policy is being broken to degree and admins can then write a appropiate response how it should be handled and lawyer could forward it to command/security to handle with it