do you think dynamic needs serious review via config?

[dendydoom]

a hot topic in bus and around manuel for a while has been dynamic.

we like it because it jangles keys in front of our eyes and keeps us entertained, but a lot of us are starting to burn out on the fact that it takes the responsibility of storytelling away from the players too much, and replaces it with codified antaggery that becomes samey and rote. rounds start to feel the same, sec can't rp/engage with antags because it "wastes time" and encourages them to move on as quickly as possible to the next midround, and there's no consistency between the "feel" of the round like gamemodes had. there is no cult round, or traitorling, it's just everything all the time nonstop with no rhyme or reason.

it's a fairly common conception that more intense rounds = less time for rp.

what are your thoughts on this? do you have any plans for "addressing" dynamic on the servers? do you have any visions for how chaotic rounds should be, how much downtime people should have? or do you think this is all fine and good?

[TheRex9001]

Dynamic has some issues, I feel like currently the main issue is lowpop, dynamic just shits it's pants and makes everything that breathes an antag. I agree that it does eat up a lot of player interaction, you'll have something interesting going on and then BOOM antag, personally I think dynamic should be more stacked towards the start of the round (aka less midrounds, more roundstarts) since a roundstart antag can usually plan and do something cool moreso than a midround. I want to take a review over dynamic but with maintainer guidance so I can actually understand what I am changing. Personally I want variance on chaotic rounds and downtime, I believe that a good balance is at least like 15min space between midrounds, 1 heavy midround like an hour in (maybe hour and a half on Manny) to cause some damage, then maybe another heavy a bit later. Ultimately dynamic will always run into some sort of issue, like not spending any threat, not having any runners when it wants to actually send an antag, or spawning 5 spies roundstart on lowpop. Chaos is fun, but you cannot have chaos if you don't have any order, its cool if I dunno like 1/2 rounds are chaos but you cannot have every round be super chaotic 100 threat 92783012983401 changelings and a malf ai, there is a need for balance.

[kinnebian]

Weve had this conversation 1000 times before in bus- I dont think anyone actually likes dynamic in its current form. I'm not sure how much config could be tweaked in order to fix it- theres only so much you can do without having to fundamentally overhaul parts, which is what I think is needed.

Im going to ideas-guy a code solution- but note that I am a headmin platform and have no power to actually implement it. I just think a code solution is the only achievable option to fixing dynamic, or at least a part of it.

I feel like dynamic would work 10x better if it spent threat on presets instead of specific antagonists. Instead of a random splattering- It had groups of themed antags to choose from. Like secret- but with a bit more flexibility for latejoins and midrounds. This would have the nice side effect of making it more common for antags to have coworkers- Making it easier to team up and purchases such as syndi radio a lot better.

Code aside- I guess we could turn it down on manuel again, or make midrounds/more chaotic factors cost more. Dynamic is fundamentally flawed.

[Timberpoes]

The current dynamic config can be found at https://github.com/tgstation-operations/server-config/

Since existing headmins can participate in these topics, let me clarify that this term still has a stretch goal to modify the dynamic config to make for better gameplay. I strongly dislike a lot of what dynamic does and how dynamic does it, and Omega has even more ideas on the topic than I do.

The reason that hasn't been done already is because dynamic requires technical expertise to configure. What every single person that says they want to change the dynamic config encounters is not having the technical expertise to actually do it.

So I invite anyone here running for headmin that thinks they have a better idea about the dynamic config to draw up their own version with reasoning and justification for the changes, and propose it to the current headmin team that still want to change dynamic.

It'll probably shoot up your stock in the election too, because you'll officially have proven you're one of what I believe is only 4(?) people that have proven able to make tangible and meaningful changes to the dynamic config to accomplish as specific goal or aim on tgstation.

Here's the guidance Mothblocks gave Omega on the topic:

[RaveRadbury]

Dynamic needs to have an easier interface for admins to engage, if I need to put my own money on the table as a bounty to advance that then so be it.

Dynamic should also be an option among discrete round types, maybe do like a 50/50, 60/40 or 80/20 old roundtypes/dynamic. It would be fun to try.

[Maxipat]

I agree with rave, dynamic needs to be more understandable for headmins that aren't waist deep into coding, maths and probability. If we can't make it readable and understandable for someone without a PhD, maybe it's a failed system and we need to think about something new? But that's coding area

[iansdoor]

As I was a late night admin, Dynamic was not fun to watch or deal with when the population couldn't handle it. I have requested policy changes on this three times. third time stuck, which did make some people unhappy. If there is no medical and someone dies, then this action is straight round removal and that sucks. Those people didn't really get the feels of the rounds going forward. "my antag is sacred" or "I didn't roll, so Ima just afk where I started." These actions ruin what little crew low population had. I will mention sometimes, even terry with high population cannot deal with a simple nightmare, I cannot imagine 12 folks at late night could do the same. I would seek to lower the numbers during a certain time and just see how that rolls. Same deal with Manuel with 90+ players, basically a round of Sybil, where there is 15% antag and most of them are going to be alive. Some folks just want to do their job or watch admins drop nukes on the station. Dynamic doesn't give you enough to really do a gimmick, because it will just spawn a blob and you can't stop it fast enough.

[xzero314]

Its hard to fine tune something that everybody wants something different out of.
Some med players get bored out of their mind if they aren't swimming in corpses to fix while others would like more room to talk to their co-workers for example.

I think that high chaos = no RP is happening is a misconception.

Chaos is itself a stage for RP. Some of my most memorable experiences are from roleplay that was happening while the station was burning down around me.
It does mean that whatever bit you have going might get interrupted. Potentially quite violently.
Rolling with whatever chaos is happening and responding to it as your character is some of the best RP we could ever hope for.

So with that said I think a good amount of chaos is fine. I also see the value of less chaotic rounds. If given the option between "Real green shift all projects announced" and "there might be like 1 or 2 antags" Id rather pick the real green shift since I know its that type of round.

I like the idea of considering admins to be online and DMing to be the default. With dymanic as the fallback for no admins. So I am ok with it being able to toss out some serious hitter rounds.

I do think dynamic goes a bit too crazy on low pop MRP atleast. 50% of the crew being traitors and also some spies and a late join heretic is pretty rough for 20 pop. On the other hand it could be argued that its good to have low pop rounds action full in this regard to help prevent 3 hour + rounds so there is some debate to be had there.