[iain0] radioprague - souppressed rage

[Radioprague]

BYOND account: radioprague

Ban/note type (Server Ban/Discord Ban/Forum Ban/Note): server ban

Ban/note duration: one day, looks like
Ban/note reason: Got into a fight with the chef (as assistant) over a 'range' they wanted for a soup gimmick. Chef was fairly contrarian and this player escalated quickly to lethal force. This in its self is maybe borderline, but then took the chefs ID (and didn't return it) nor took the body to medical. ID should probably have been returned after egressing kitchen. Due to similarity with the jan 25th note I'm making this a day ban. Player offline at time ban placed, please appeal if there's more to this to justify the actions.
Time ban was placed: 9pm last night, i think?
Server you were playing on when banned: terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 249876

Why are you making this appeal? :
(x) - The ban/note is factually incorrect
() - The ban/note is not against the rules
() - The ban/note needs modification
() - The ban was unjustifiably harsh
() - I was permabanned and I want another chance

Why should this appeal be accepted?:
ello ello

wasn't online to deal with this bwoink so i'll just state my case here. basically, i think it's a pretty severe understatement of the situation for the note to say the chef was 'contrarian' and it was me that escalated the situation

i agreed with the chef pretty early on that i could take a range. he was fine with this. consent was given. i left to go find a wrench, came back a good while later, and he refused to let me out with my rightful prize. this wasn't a misunderstanding thing it was quite clearly intentional bait into a fight where he'd have the chance to kill me with his cqc, as i think logs should reflect? he was very intentionally being dense, man, making me explain the same things to him over and over so i'd give him an excuse to rr me. his plan was flawless except for the fact that i am cool as fuck and won the fight, because i am actually the best player of all time with the coolest plays and the finest gimmicks and the best hair.

i took his id so i could leave via the door with my spoils of war. i moved on to vacant commissary to mind my own affairs and open a business selling rat soup, as is the american dream. eventually when i realised i still had it i was going to message a friend who had been mildly involved as an eyewitness who hadn't offended either side to come to commissary so i could (among other things) give him the id to return so i didn't have to go and get murdered myself. anyways, the fucker was waiting outside when i let the friend in so it was lights out pho gorbino - after which point i think i dc'd because unfortunately i have life things i need to do if i can't spend my time making rat soup.

here's what i don't understand. the guy baits me into a fight he expected to win, i win, i take what i need and nothing more, and later on he kills me to get it back. why was admin intervention needed here? this still seems like fair escalation on both sides to me. guy wanted a fight, got one, and he got a chance to avenge himself and rectify any loss of sick loot (though i do notice he didn't take the range back from what i saw. most curious.)

anyways, i don't really care about the day ban i just don't want an admin record that implies i've got any kind of habit of fnr killing. i plead escalation. if you won't remove the ban please make the note nicer to me many thanks kiss kiss




the real victim here was my poor, poor, customers. where will they get their rat soup now?

[iain0]

Hey, thanks for the appeal.

I did read over your and the chef's logs and did find a whole bunch of back story, I'm gonna avoid presenting logs unless we get into a dispute because they're not easily available to hand right now.

What I managed to piece together from the logs suggested roughly the following:

You met the chef somewhere (atrium? which I think is front of bar), asked for a range, they agreed, you went to get a wrench, went to the kitchen, asked for the range, they then refuse, some stuff about you being a spy (guess thats a reasonable suspicion) but then lets you take the range and then refuses to open the door to let you out again. You shove chef, chef shoves you, you stab chef, chef stabs you with sharpened knife no less and somehow you win the fight against the chef in the kitchen (an attack from your side that I'd consider borderline suicide given how stacked the fight should have been, the chef was already half dead before the fight so I guess that helps). Then you steal their ID and take the range, leaving their body in the kitchen for someone else to pick up about a minute later. Chef later tracks you down and kills you for the ID and you disconnect sometime after before I get to bwoinking you.

I spent rather a long time pouring over all this stuff and trying to decide what I was going to do.

At one point I even pondered the chef's "post death revenge", being a non antag crew on crew situation things should typically stop after one party is dispatched to medical ; however your theft of the ID card gives them an ongoing situation and reason (and rules permit) to go back for more. In hindsight I should have checked what they did with your corpse ; I know you DNRed and did end up in medical but they should still take you to medical depending on timing of the DNR.

Still, much as the ID card permits them to go back for seconds, I did also consider that the contrarian nature of the chef was pretty obvious and could be a source of frustration for you too, I don't know I'd go as far as 'baiting', pretty hard to infer that level of intent but they were certainly flip flopping and just kinda wasting your time, and other than you being pretty quick to escalate to outright stabbing them I didn't have a huge issue with this fight and would have considered it largely IC.

All that really needed to be any different here was the ID card / body thing ; is there any reason you couldn't have just body carried the chef out of the kitchen (while dragging the range, abuse their carried ID while you carry them), dump them in medical and off you go? If the chef had gone back for revenge after this they would probably have ended up with an escalation warning note on their record in fact (or at least I'd have grilled them over it to determine this).

It's more the leaving the body behind and keeping their ID ; the chef after all had time to get revived and track you down and kill you to get it back, that is an ongoing impediment to their round so they're entitled to do that IMO but thats probably more than you really needed here (?) particularly given the body carry suggestion.

So, as some more TL;DR summary points I guess:

• Fight largely IC due to to chef's behaviour, though rather quickly escalated into killy
• Body left in kitchen for someone else to recover
• Theft of chef's ID
• You have this previous note from december apparently ("R246959 - As an Assistant, did a gimmick around building lattices in an empty space of Sci and claiming that empty zone. After being asked to leave by a Scientist, insisted on staying. Eventually ended up critting the Scientist. While the gimmick was fair imo, attacking Sci was overescalation. Understanding in the ahelp.")

So this all boiled down to ignoring the actual conflict as largely IC but with rapid escalation (though I guess in fairness taking half measures against a chef in the kitchen is also probably just even more like suicide), but leaving the body behind goes against escalation policy, and stealing their ID for an extended period seemed unnecessary (if you can justify this please do). Combined with the note for previous situations with a gimmick being thwarted turning into overescalation prompted me to turn this into a day ban.

I'm not dead set on this being a ban, if you can explain enough of these post fight nuances I guess I might downgrade it to a note. I'm quite open to rewriting the note/ban text if there's particular parts of it you take objection to or you think it's unfair in its presentation.



I will also say, as an admin who knows your history of running interesting gimmicks you can always ask us for stuff if IC is problematic ; player created events in a round that involve other players are always a delight to see in this game, hell, I'd say its the cornerstone of what can really make this game stand out and turn a round into something special rather than being one of those that gets completely forgotten by the next day. As such I do genuinely appreciate you trying to find your own path here IC to your goals (because lazy people who view admins/prayers as a shop suck, doubly so those who think trading their round start gear means anything), but if you get met with frustration and limitations then I'd have been happy to ship you a range and see where you went with it.


Over to you!

PS: Love the title

[Radioprague]

yeah i don't really have a problem with the chef killing me afterwards especially since i grabbed that id. i should have returned it. can't remember why i didn't once i was through the door, maybe it just didn't occur to me or maybe it was to do with someone (i think the cmo? someone with a cloak) talking like they were gonna back the chef in the fight so i sort of just got out of there quick as i could

i also have no idea how i won the first fight with the chef ngl i suck at this game

can we lift the day ban with a pinkie promise to be well behaved in the future and not steal ids/ensure corpses get sent to med?

[iain0]

Mmm, alright, not an amazing justification but at the same time even when I was trying to figure out what to do with this last night I was aware that the "practical consequences" of the situation, which I tend to weigh in quite heavily in the sentencing part of handling a case, were that the chef ultimately triumphed, recovered all their stuff and you were (by your own choice) removed from the round, but even without the DNR/DC everything was effectively 'restored' to normal at that point and events should have fully resolved IC effectively, with only the overall inconvenience / time spent being enduring consequences.

I can only assume the chef wasn't too familiar with the details of CQC, I can't imagine I'd win as chef in the kitchen either, but yeah, also surprised you didn't just get stomped on there

I'll do a middle ground, because you're not typically a problematic player and there's lots of IC nuances to this and I'll offer to reduce this to a 12 hour ban, which would make it have already lapsed, noting that this has still already managed to inconvenience you (presumably you're here because you wanted to play the game and couldn't).

I'll actually apply that change right now so you're not stuck waiting on a back and forth of acceptance / me reading the reply, but this doesn't change your right to appeal it further - I consider this appeal still to be open if you wish to try convince me to downgrade it entirely to a note or wish to discuss the wording further.

And yeah, lesson learned would be to please follow escalation policy when dealing with non antagonist conflicts. Sending the corpse to med is not particularly optional, the ID card theft in its self isn't a major issue, you /can/ take things from people if you have a good reason provided it doesn't significantly impact their round, had the card been returned this would have been largely irrelevant to my analysis as you needed it for taking the range, but wasn't necessary that it played out to the duration that it did (and ultimately this resulted in your valid demise anyway).

Cheers,

[Radioprague]

thank you pho this

[iain0]

Sure, did you want to further discuss refinements or details or shall I closed this out?

[iain0]

Will close in 2 days if nothing further.