[Xzero314] Imitates-The-Lizards - Pirate nuking note

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

BYOND account: Typhnox

Ban/note type (Server Ban/Discord Ban/Forum Ban/Note): Note

Ban/note duration: Permanent
Ban/note reason: As a non-Antagonist Chemist. Unleashed their destructive grenade for EORG upon two pirates that shot at them and another crewmember. This grenade caused major damage to arrivals and covered a large area. Has been asked to not use methods with large collateral damage as a non antagonist unless the antag they are dealing with is on the verge of defeating the station.
Time ban was placed: 2024-11-07 18:45:33
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: 241537

Why are you making this appeal? (Put an x in the boxes):
() - The ban/note is factually incorrect
(x) - The ban/note is not against the rules
() - The ban/note needs modification
() - The ban was unjustifiably harsh
() - I was permabanned and I want another chance

Why should this appeal be accepted?: So, to summarize the story, I was following the Curator to arrivals because I was just curious about what they were up to. We ran into two pirates at Arrivals, who summarily shot the Curator (I thought it was to death, but it might have only been to crit. Either way, he was definitely incapacitated.) and myself, leaving me shot, injured, and bleeding out from my arm. I was facing down two fully armed and armored pirates who just shot down a fellow crewman and shot myself, with no weapons... except for my nuke-tier grenade I made because I was experimenting with explosives in this shift (In addition to the grenade I made, I was also toying around with using heated phlogiston pills to trigger internal explosions to turn people into walking bombs). I've made this particular grenade before, it's great for EORG. However, it was also my self defense tool, since we had no security.

So I chucked it at them. Arrivals was turned into a crater, but they died (I think?). I headed to medical because of my injuries, which nearly were causing me to black out from blood loss.

On to the meat and potatoes of the appeal:

-Firstly, I think I was fine to have such a grenade, because it is well within the purview of a chemist to make such a grenade. Who else is supposed to make explosive grenades if not chemists? And if they are not supposed to make them, why are they in the game and accessible to non-antagonist chemists under normal circumstances instead of like, locked behind an emag or something?
-Secondly, even if under normal circumstances you somehow decided it was not acceptable to have such a grenade, it would be allowed in the shift in question because we did not have security.
-Third, even if you did not think it was acceptable to have such a grenade when we had no security, it would be allowed when there were pirates running around shooting my fellow crew when we have no security, as that introduces an active threat which needs defending from.

Therefore, accepting that I should be allowed to have that grenade in the shift in question, we have to ask whether or not my response was reasonable to the situation at hand: Antagonists were running around the station, killing my fellow crew, shooting me, and giving me injuries that would later nearly cause me to bleed out. I could not reasonably fight them otherwise, since they heavily outgunned me. And the rest of the station, for that matter. I asked xzero what he would have done instead, and he said to run away. I do not accept this answer for several reasons:

-It's not a logical solution for the shift in question. As there was no security, it was either the crew (which includes me!) fights, or the pirates can kill the entire crew willy nilly. As they tried to do by offing the curator and shooting me.
-There is no "duty to run away" in the rules
-If they decided to chase me, I would have been slowed down by my injuries, which would have made it a losing strategy.

In conclusion, I was justified in having the grenade in question, and I was justified in using the grenade in the situation I was noted for. Therefore, the rules were not broken, and there is no reason for me to have this note, in my opinion on the situation.

Thank you.

[xzero314]

Hello Imitates-The-Lizards. I am going to deny your appeal to have this note removed.

We had a pretty good discussion during the ticket so I will mostly rehash what I said during it.

I agree that it is ok to make explosives as a non-antagonist. However, As a non-antagonist, you are responsible for any explosives you make and whatever results come from them exploding. I think if a scientist made a maxcap and wandered the station with it, then somebody stole their max cap and set it off; Or like in this case, The scientist gets attacked and uses their max cap in self defence. The scientist would also have responsibility for the bomb on them.

Having taken a look at the logs it looks like you were also handing out large explosives to the crew.
"GAME-SAY: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3284) "thatll take out a department so" (Medical (152,94,2))"
"GAME-SAY: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3284) "use it sparingly" (Medical (152,94,2))"


" "GAME-SAY: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3284) "Here moff" (Medbay Treatment Center (161,87,2))
GAME-SAY: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3284) "That will take out a department, use it sparingly." (Medbay Treatment Center (161,87,2))

This is also not something you should be doing as a non-antagonist.

With regards to the situation of that round. Due to the lack of security I would not say it is valid hunting on your part to have gone after pirates which are restricted antags on MRP. So no valid hunting occurred here. Which is what I said was ok during the ticket. Due to this I decided not to rule the pirate kills as invalid and worthy of a ban. The curator was caught in the blast as well, But given they were armed to fight the pirates I also figured at the time that you two had come to an agreement on this. Looking at the logs I dont see anything that suggests the curator was willing to get bombed though.

I do take issue with the level of collateral damage your methods to fight the pirates caused. As a non antagonist you should not be resorting to fighting antagonists using such destructive methods unless they are overwhelming and on the state of overthrowing the station. Like for example A cult trying to summon Narsie would have been a very appropriate situation to use that. The antagonist in this case was two pirates. The Curator and yourself were the first encounter they had with the crew that I saw. So I dont believe they had done enough to be treated as a unrestricted antagonist. I also dont believe being in possession of the bomb and its ability to easily solve the pirate attack is a fair enough reason for you to have used it as a non antagonist.

The other issue is your bomb totally decimated arrivals. The damage went from public botany all the way to the kitchen. The area was cratered and spaced. I dont think a non-antag should be carrying around bombs that can cause so much damage and if they go off you are absolutely on the hook for the damages. Luckily in your case nobody arrived and then died to the spaced arrivals your bomb created.


Here are the logs of the explosion

GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (149,181,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:18.738] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (151,190,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:19.313] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (148,181,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:20.155] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (152,192,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:20.604] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (149,190,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:20.779] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrivals Security Checkpoint (152,190,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:21.197] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (137,183,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:21.362] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (158,192,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:21.468] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrivals Security Checkpoint (152,189,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:21.723] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrivals Security Checkpoint (152,188,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:21.870] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (155,181,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:22.089] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (146,183,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:22.994] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (131,190,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:23.150] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (137,187,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:23.251] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (156,192,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:23.474] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (157,192,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:23.625] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (137,188,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:23.676] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Fore Primary Hallway (134,178,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:23.683] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (150,190,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:23.955] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Fore Primary Hallway (132,178,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:24.259] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (137,186,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:24.523] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (137,185,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:24.700] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (135,185,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:25.148] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (136,185,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:25.291] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (148,191,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:25.639] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (136,183,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:25.691] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (138,183,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:25.842] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (150,184,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:26.251] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (151,184,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:26.352] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Fore Primary Hallway (133,178,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:26.712] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Bar Lounge (139,171,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:26.717] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (134,185,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:27.269] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Fore Primary Hallway (136,178,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:27.969] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrivals Security Checkpoint (153,186,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:28.596] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (149,183,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:29.047] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Fore Primary Hallway (135,179,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:30.236] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (148,190,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:30.522] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (149,184,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:30.622] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (136,191,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:31.021] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (148,189,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:31.112] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (159,195,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:31.638] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (149,185,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:31.905] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (134,191,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:32.333] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (158,195,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:32.643] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (135,191,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:32.845] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (132,184,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:33.038] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (133,191,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:33.586] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Hydroponics (129,175,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:33.823] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Fore Primary Hallway (136,168,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:33.829] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Fore Primary Hallway (138,172,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:34.404] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Fore Primary Hallway (131,177,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:35.603] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Arrival Shuttle Hallway (155,183,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:36.372] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Hydroponics (129,176,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:36.873] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Fore Primary Hallway (130,177,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:36.878] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Fore Primary Hallway (130,175,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:36.971] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Fore Primary Hallway (136,170,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:37.361] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Fore Primary Hallway (137,168,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:37.367] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Fore Primary Hallway (136,167,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:38.044] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Fore Primary Hallway (136,169,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:38.433] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Fore Primary Hallway (138,173,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards).
[2024-11-07 18:06:39.181] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Fore Primary Hallway (137,173,2)). Possible cause: the smoke. Last fingerprints: typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards)

You can get an idea of the size of the bomb from this.

In summary. I disagree that you had fair cause to use this as a non-antagonist. "Self defence" Against pirates that had not even killed a single person is not a valid reason for a non-antagonist to go nuclear. Especially considering you already had this bomb ready to go. You did not even make it in response to the pirates as you said in the ticket. I hope you see my reasoning here for why I think this note is an important reminder about the level of destruction you are allowed to resort to against antagonists as a non antag.

I believe the note to be accurate and fairly represents that you were shot at. I would be willing to ammend it to include a portion that points out there was no security present though if you think that is important.

If you are not satisfied with my reasoning here then I encourage you to ask for a headmin ruling.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Good to hear from you xzero.

Firstly, I disagree with your statements regarding my reasoning for making the grenade, and also the relevancy of my underlying reasoning for having it in the first place.

To quote myself in the ticket:

" Reply from typhnox
2024-11-07 18:25:00
A few reasons. EORG prep, self defense, and I was doing some experiments with explosives this shift."

I directly informed you self defense was one of the reasons I had prepared the grenade in question. This is further evidenced by the logs you yourself posted:

"GAME-SAY: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3284) "thatll take out a department so" (Medical (152,94,2))"
"GAME-SAY: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3284) "use it sparingly" (Medical (152,94,2))"

and

" "GAME-SAY: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3284) "Here moff" (Medbay Treatment Center (161,87,2))
GAME-SAY: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3284) "That will take out a department, use it sparingly." (Medbay Treatment Center (161,87,2))

As you can see, I handed out grenades to my fellow medbay crew so that they could also defend themselves, and told them to be careful when they used them, because of the impact they would have. So I think that based on the logs, and my response in the ticket, and the overall situation in the shift, it is fair of us to come to the conclusion that I made the bombs with self defense being one of the reasons.

In addition, even if for some reason you still did not think self defense (or the aforementioned explosives testing, which could easily be backed up by logs as well if you wish me to do so) was an actual factor in my decision to make these explosives, I would say that is irrelevant, because regardless of why I made them, I would still be allowed to have them and use them based on the situation in the shift.

In addition, I think that bringing up the collateral damage I caused is only fair if there was a reasonable alternative you think I could have done to fight the pirates in my situation, whether as a chemist in general or in the actual situation. I do not believe a syringe gun would have been sufficient armament against the pirates, I don't even think a non-piercing syringe would have pierced their modsuits, and even if it did, based on how this situation has gone, I frankly feel like you would have bwoinked me for having a deathmix syringe as a nonantagonist too, making this whole thing moot summarily. I have already explained in my opening post why I did not feel running away was a reasonable solution. So I believe that in both the general situation and the specific situation, I was within the bounds of the rules.

Next, saying they "didnt kill anyone" is a bit misleading, as they had gunned down the curator to near death. I thought he WAS dead, which I think is fair game under the fact that this is a game of limited information, and also even if they had not yet killed any crew, it wasn't for lack of trying - they shot the curator and myself. What's the point being made here? "Make sure you run up to the guy gunned down in the pirates arms and double check their pulses to make sure they're really really dead next time before you blow the antags up!"? Because if so I think that is very silly.

[xzero314]

I do not think self defence is a reason to be making bombs as a non antagonist- Nor is it a good reason to be handing out bombs as a non antagonist unless the situation is very dire. Like a cult is taking over or war was declared.

I would even go as far to say that using self defence as a justification hurts your case more than helps here. It comes across a bit as pre-emptively seeking to hinder antagonists. What were you planning to defend yourself against that required such a bomb? The first sign of antags acting in the shift at all was when a traitor hacked comms which resulted in the very same pirates being called. Otherwise it was a very quiet shift.

You mentioned self defence and Eorg prep and experimenting as your reasons. I don't think the first two give you any leeway in this regard. Being a chemist and doing your job is fair in the same way that a scientist is allowed to make bombs. Once those bombs leave the lab its entirely on you what happens.

As for what should you have done instead in that situation? Well that is a situation where I would have personally just ran. Especially if for some reason I was carrying a heavy duty bomb that the pirates could get if they kill me. You are correct that there is no "you must flee clause". That is just my suggestion as an alternative to unleashing the power of the sun through chemicals upon the two hapless pirates and arrivals. I understand that as a chemist. Chemicals are your main weapon. So this isn't me telling you not to use chems on people. Nor am I saying you are forbidden from making bombs as a non-antagonist. The issue here is the degree of collateral damage. If non antagonists were allowed to just walk around with bombs and use them on any antag that happens to attack them or somebody near by to them; then the game would quickly devolve to an arms race of who can blow up the other side first and that is not something I think we should be striving for.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I believe we are not able to come to a resolution on our own. I have already stated why I do not believe running was a reasonable solution to the situation in my opening post, and therefore, in my opinion as discussed thus far in the appeal, you have not provided a reasonable alternative to what was happening in the shift beyond doing the functional equivalent of laying down and letting the pirates plunder and kill whatever they wanted without any members of the crew fighting back.

Continuing on would just be rehashing the same argument for a third time.

I am requesting a headmin review.

[DrAmazing343]

Appeal denied. We are upholding this note.

The issue here is the degree of collateral damage. If non antagonists were allowed to just walk around with bombs and use them on any antag that happens to attack them or somebody near by to them; then the game would quickly devolve to an arms race of who can blow up the other side first and that is not something I think we should be striving for.

I believe Xzero stated well enough here why this is problematic. There's very little to re-hash that they have not already said, so I will reaffirm this most important part of their statements.

Burgerman: Just as with our rule about losing being part of the game, sometimes you really do just have to die or do literally anything else aside from blowing up a huge portion of the station to save your own life. Throw something, punch a pirate's lights out, but ultimately if every player played like this then we'd have nothing but a station full of holes by the 20 minute mark.
Timberpoes: You shouldn't be more deadly than the antags you're fighting against.