Shovestun Removal Testmerge Feedback

[NecromancerAnne]

Please provide feedback from any experiences you have had with this PR here. Either make it known in the comments of the PR, or here if you are going to be particularly verbose.

[Yulice]

Based idea. remove all stuns entirely and go to only lethal combat.

[zergking]

It'll make a lot of people I don't like very unhappy, so please do it

[Timonk]

How are you going to justify this when there is a drink that fully stuns you for multiple minutes at a time shortly after injection

[Vekter]

I'm copying this from the PR because I know people don't read.

THIS IS NOT INTEND TO BE MERGED INTO THE GAME. THIS IS A TEST.

MERGING THIS INTO THE GAME WOULD ALMOST CERTAINLY CAUSE A NUMBER OF PROBLEMS. THAT IS THE POINT OF THE TEST. TO SEE WHAT THOSE PROBLEMS ARE WITHOUT COMMITTING TO ITS REMOVAL.

PLEASE DON'T DOOMPOST ABOUT REMOVING SHOVESTUNS, IT WILL BE FINE IT WILL BE HERE AFTER THE TEST

NOBODY PUT ME UP TO THIS THERE IS NO HIDDEN AGENDA BEHIND MY ACTIONS

THERE IS NO SECRET CABAL TRYING TO MAKE YOU, DEAR READER IN PARTICULAR, HAVE A HARDER TIME BEATING PINK-HAIRED CATGIRLS TO DEATH

[Istoprocent1]

Its a good change on so many levels. Reduction/removal of game ending hardstuns from mundane sources is something that makes the combat more dynamic. At the moment one of the many issues is that you cannot be sure if that one shove was "just a prank bro" or should you be fighting for your life as the next one would open you up to round removal. Shoving should also not be a "comeback" weapon. It should be a way to create space to escape or to disarm. When will the testmerge take place?

[NecromancerAnne]

Testmerging is broken right now, as we've come to discover while trying to testmerge this PR. There is a more involved method but it didn't work. It might be a bit.

[TheBibleMelts]

i think it's a good change. people with weapons or tools should have an inherently advantage over the unarmed, and less easily accessible and abusable stuns the better.

[Higgin]

looking forward to seeing this live - the one thing it occurs to me might cover some of the unexpected benefits of this PR is to either:
A) make grabs more effective on people who prone (maybe just voluntarily, or after a delay?)
B) make getting hit with a Knockdown while prone still disarm the target

previously, the Paralyze kick will have been one of the best reasons to stay on your feet - this change will remove the Paralyze component. currently, you can preempt getting disarmed by a lot of effects (slips, baton stun, shoves, flashes now) by just crawling at your enemy.

it's never really sat right with me how effective crawling is for combat, but a lot of the ways it's been addressed elsewhere (on codebases where prone combat is even a thing) have been through accuracy/damage debuffs that rely on RNG we've broadly moved away from - this change overall seems like a great step towards combat feeling better, I just suspect that it'll shift people to doing more goofy shit with crawling without the introduction of some other tradeoff.

[Nabski]

It's wild that we removed tasers and so many other sources of stuns and then just wobbled our way into stuns by melee combat basic abilities.

[Jacquerel]

looking forward to seeing this live - the one thing it occurs to me might cover some of the unexpected benefits of this PR is to either:
A) make grabs more effective on people who prone (maybe just voluntarily, or after a delay?)
B) make getting hit with a Knockdown while prone still disarm the target

previously, the Paralyze kick will have been one of the best reasons to stay on your feet - this change will remove the Paralyze component. currently, you can preempt getting disarmed by a lot of effects (slips, baton stun, shoves, flashes now) by just crawling at your enemy.

it's never really sat right with me how effective crawling is for combat, but a lot of the ways it's been addressed elsewhere (on codebases where prone combat is even a thing) have been through accuracy/damage debuffs that rely on RNG we've broadly moved away from - this change overall seems like a great step towards combat feeling better, I just suspect that it'll shift people to doing more goofy shit with crawling without the introduction of some other tradeoff.

We should just make being hit by any mob or object or projectile while prone cause you to drop all items

[Timonk]

Would you consider buffing riot armor now that you won't be stunned from shoving anymore?

[NecromancerAnne]

...Timonk, I've already buffed it three times in the last year.

[Timonk]

...Timonk, I've already buffed it three times in the last year.

more.

[Bluespace]

Stuns have no place in hand to hand unarmed combat.

Slowdowns, weakened punches, staggers. There's so many ways to handle brawling other than "you lost the dice roll, buh bye buddy!"

[Higgin]

I like it in testing - one thing that might be nice is making disarms apply easier on shoving or attacking prone opponents.

[Istoprocent1]

As anticipated, it is a good change. Combat is more dynamic and no longer double shove gg.

Something that has become painfully obvious during this testmerge is the regular melee of humans is way too strong with their RNG stun punches and stamina damage. As well as lizard claws being useless compared to regular fist.

As long as unarmed is equal to or better than a toolbox when it comes to making spacemen helpless or horizontal the balance is not there. Unarmed combat should be the last resort option (unless you have CQC or Carp ofc).

[k4rl]

Personally, it was a pretty good change, you no longer could just shove someone to a wall twice while they werent expecting it to instantly win
you had to use diffrent ways of fair combat (besides instastun shit) to kill people

plus, people with weapons no longer had disadvantages against people using unarmed since you cant stun people anymore just by shoving them

[Timonk]

unarmed is equal to or better than a toolbox

i had a round where my paradox clone slapped me on the noggin with one and it instantly gave me a concussion which lead to my untimely death so i dont think its equal or better than toolbox especially because you die in just a couple hits with a toolbox, compared to punching

[Istoprocent1]

unarmed is equal to or better than a toolbox

i had a round where my paradox clone slapped me on the noggin with one and it instantly gave me a concussion which lead to my untimely death so i dont think its equal or better than toolbox especially because you die in just a couple hits with a toolbox, compared to punching

One hit ggs fron RNG are bad design on their own. There a similar random RNGs with unarmed that drop you as well your held items.

[NecromancerAnne]

I've finally showed up to give my thoughts and conclusions based on both what I observed in-game and being discussed.

Conflict in general lasted longer
Firstly, the most predominant conclusion most people came too seems to be that fights generally lasted a lot longer. A fight wouldn't be basically over after the first successful shovestun (fights still would last after the first successful shove depending on some factors). There also weren't situations where someone could end a fight before it started by shove stunning them in ambush. At the very least, it seems shove stuns most powerful use case most likely wasn't in defense or escape. It was an extremely potent offense (particularly while others aren't aware), since time to death is rather fast in any meaningful conflict.

Less likely to lose immediately, so people felt more confident in engaging in a conflict
Secondly, this first factor meant people were more confident in their ability to engage in a fight with others. Since a fight couldn't be finished just from one specific attack, people got a little more reckless with how they fought, and more eager to approach a conflict.

Security's heightened confidence was matched by their now more powerful position in a fight (They are actually a threat and not a loot pinata)
Thirdly, and maybe the most important one for actionability. The specific group to benefit from this and related to the second point was security. Security players in particular felt the strength of their gear more, and were more confident in entering a conflict because of it. There wasn't the same risk they were experiencing previously of getting shovestunned and then their gear reversed on them to immediately conclude the fight. While they could still have their equipment reversed on them, they also could confidently recover, simply because they weren't in a position to get stunlooped.

Shovestuns may be skewing the balance of gear/abilities that apply knockdowns, outside of shove knockdowns (but I don't think that is true of security stun batons, sorry Willard)
This one might be a slightly longer perspective since it is more like three points in one. But it was actually what was being discussed when the testmerge was conceptualized and one of the most common observations of maintainers. And the testmerge somewhat validated those perspectives. So I think it is a good idea to talk about here.

Effects that result in a knockdown can be quickly turned into a stun because of shove stunning. Shove stunning is never in isolation to itself and only a mechanic within itself. Any valid knockdown can become a shovestun. Slips, police/telescopic batons, and some spells like heretic's grasp. So any knockdown has to be weighed alongside shovestuns.

I can't say with certainty, based on these observations as to or not this is good or bad. Some people would view it as 'part of the sandbox experience'. What I can say is that people definitely felt the absence of shovestuns while employing these items/abilities. In particular, it is possible heretic was designed with the presence of shovestun in mind, which means heretic is balanced entirely around a mechanic outside of its own implementation. And it is a critical reliance, not just circumstantial. Heretics suffered massively during the testmerge, and only managed to succeed due to the ability to kick people into stamcrit, which, by the time of writing, we've removed.

I think we may want to consider separating out shovestuns from the balance of other bits of equipment. Or, at the very least, implement ways to make the opportunity for one more controlled.

The reason I don't think this applies to stun batons, by the way, is because the knockdown is very delayed, and batons can conclusively end the fight in of themselves by the time the knockdown occurs. I think stun batons are mostly safe from this issue. They give you time to respond. Whether or not it is adequately long is an entirely different discussion. The same isn't true of their analog variant; one slap and it is extremely easy to then turn that into a stun. The one-two is usually an instant defeat.

I really didn't hear much about departmental defense during the testmerge
It was the biggest concern, and why shovestuns exist in the first place, but honestly I didn't really hear much about it. I think people literally just beat departmental invaders into crit with whatever they can grab, both before and during the testmerge. So the impact on departmental defense was probably negligible. You might even have a reduced chance of getting owned in your own department with shovestun gone.

People could lay on the floor to become basically resistant to disarming.
Easy fix, and I added that to my conclusion. We probably shouldn't make it impossible to get an item/weapon out of someones hands. Prone became a very powerful way to approach a fight because of this issue, even if it was slower.



My Conclusions and what could be done to address this feedback

• Regardless of whether or not shovestun exists, shoving someone on the floor probably should disarm them of any carried items.

• If we do not want shove stuns to take place except in highly specific instances, shove stun should probably only occur when we want them to and not when any knockdown occurs whatsoever. Maybe only if they're staggered, or some other condition.

• Security becoming more shovestun resistant could be a way of making them more resilient in conflict, and also improve player overall confidence in performing their duties.