The piggybacking problem (MRP)

[xPokee]

Let me start this off by saying that I am speaking from both sides here. I used to be the kind of person who would hang out with another player all shift and never leave their side, then I was bwoinked about it and realised how unfun it makes the game for other players and stopped that kind of behaviour. Yet admin rulings about this kind of thing seem inconsistent. Some admins think that following one player every round gives an unfair advantage, while others don't mind.

So I pose to you, is never leaving another player's side all round every round against the rules?

I'm not talking about hanging out with someone for a portion of the shift, either. I mean ALL shift never leaving their side.

[Timberpoes]

If it pisses off an admin enough and they think you're gaining some tangible benefit from persistent across-shift friendships, yeah for sure it's against the rules. It's not even an MRP thing, LRP cliques occasionally get busted for this sort of grouping as well, but it caused less issues because antags would just maxcap mass gatherings for fun.

[Vekter]

I feel like it's antithetical to the spirit of the game. You can't spend literally all day of your work shift glued next to your bestie, right? So why would you expect that you could in a game about RPing working somewhere?

I don't see a problem with it every once in a while, but if you're spending every shift glued to the same people constantly, I don't think there's an issue with us asking you to stop.

[EmpressMaia]

dont we have an MRP rule that says something liike "dont do the same thingg every rounnd". could this go under that?

it is a real problem with some players, always piggy backing on eachother every round and coming to their friends defense at all opprutunities

[SapphoQueer]

To add onto this, on MRP where rulings around antags are a bit tighter than say terry/sybil, this is still a game where one of the primary factors is paranoia. When you bring yourself into the situation where you're staying next to your buddy all shift, every shift, you're removing one of the main driving forces behind the game, in part due to "I'm next to my main man out here, antags are gonna have a much harder time fucking with me". I'd prefer not to name names but there are definitely people who've made a bit of a reputation for themselves by doing that.

I'd also argue for some other issues it causes such as becoming unapproachable towards other people by ending with a ingroup/outgroup, but that's something that I doubt can be fully avoided in a game where statics exist at all.

[DaydreamIQ]

I've personally never had this issue, there are a lot of people who hang around each other for sure but its pretty obvious they ain't doing it because it'll make them harder to target. Antags have plenty of tools at their disposal to take on groups as is. Kind of seems counter intuitive to say we should punish people who roleplay on a roleplay server

[Lacran]

I've personally never had this issue, there are a lot of people who hang around each other for sure but its pretty obvious they ain't doing it because it'll make them harder to target. Antags have plenty of tools at their disposal to take on groups as is. Kind of seems counter intuitive to say we should punish people who roleplay on a roleplay server

If it's roleplaying with the same person/people every time it's definitely a detriment to the round, though not an advantage.

[Vekter]

I've personally never had this issue, there are a lot of people who hang around each other for sure but its pretty obvious they ain't doing it because it'll make them harder to target. Antags have plenty of tools at their disposal to take on groups as is. Kind of seems counter intuitive to say we should punish people who roleplay on a roleplay server

The issue is that we're not an HRP server, so roleplay doesn't come before everything else. Hanging out with your IC friends is fine, but the issue comes when it's happening so much that any antags literally cannot get at you because you're always surrounded by friends. There are ways for them to handle groups, but the vast majority of them require them to go loud, whereas they could pick off individuals without doing so.

It becomes indistinguishable from you using your OOC friendships as an IC benefit.

[Itseasytosee2me]

I don't like seeing this on mrp or lrp. I give exception for captains or heads of staff who have personnel following them around especially if there was some sort of formal bodygaurd initiating (a special job title from the hop, or even just an exchange of cash) because I think it makes sense for these individuals of importance to be able to command that kind of clout.

[Misdoubtful]

I feel like it's antithetical to the spirit of the game. You can't spend literally all day of your work shift glued next to your bestie, right? So why would you expect that you could in a game about RPing working somewhere?

I don't see a problem with it every once in a while, but if you're spending every shift glued to the same people constantly, I don't think there's an issue with us asking you to stop.

This is pretty much the feeling.

Admins have dealt with it in plenty of ways as well.

Well something like this can totally work and be just fine in other server environments, it just doesn't work here. TG is too fast, there is too much action, and the majority of mentalities towards the game just flat out don't mesh with it.

[sinfulbliss]

Really hard to distinguish this from just normal, healthy socializing.

For instance: a med doc remains the whole round in medbay. She is constantly surrounded by other med docs, who she talks with regularly. It’d be just as hard for antags to target them, if not harder, than someone piggybacking with an OOC friend.

On Sybil we used to have these two sec lizards that would go everywhere together, one blue one red. If they ever got separated their first goal was finding the other one, even if there was an antag or fight right there, first step was retreat to the partner then go back and catch the baddie. But sec is allowed to partner up so it’s fine.

Things are more fun with friends, just like IRL people like to do things with friends over alone, inevitably you will have some time apart and good antags should be lurking waiting for that opportunity. If it’s piggybacking every second of every round with not a single moment apart then maybe that could justify a bwoink.

[Lacran]

Really hard to distinguish this from just normal, healthy socializing.

For instance: a med doc remains the whole round in medbay. She is constantly surrounded by other med docs, who she talks with regularly. It’d be just as hard for antags to target them, if not harder, than someone piggybacking with an OOC friend.

On Sybil we used to have these two sec lizards that would go everywhere together, one blue one red. If they ever got separated their first goal was finding the other one, even if there was an antag or fight right there, first step was retreat to the partner then go back and catch the baddie. But sec is allowed to partner up so it’s fine.

Things are more fun with friends, just like IRL people like to do things with friends over alone, inevitably you will have some time apart and good antags should be lurking waiting for that opportunity. If it’s piggybacking every second of every round with not a single moment apart then maybe that could justify a bwoink.

Departmental friendships are generally seen differently.

5 players in a department hanging out together and doing their jobs is great to see, provided they don't favour and cover each other to extreme degrees.

The issue on MRP especially is more so stuff like the same 5 people from different departments hanging out together for 90% of the round, only doing their job when specifically requested and protecting/covering for each other against anyone else.

Socialising is great, but social cliques where a group exclude others and engage with the round very little is antisocial.

[SapphoQueer]

Hanging out with your IC friends is fine, but the issue comes when it's happening so much that any antags literally cannot get at you because you're always surrounded by friends. There are ways for them to handle groups, but the vast majority of them require them to go loud, whereas they could pick off individuals without doing so.

It becomes indistinguishable from you using your OOC friendships as an IC benefit.

I believe this is perfectly put. A good example I remember of this happening is 212176, the coroner, Rana Catlay, who coincidentally also created this thread is a heretic. Three of their sacrifices go off well, and she's not yet discovered. Her other two targets are the duo that's usually together, sure, they're both medical, but as I was observing for that round I can say that even when they left medbay they stuck together. Eventually Rana ended up feeling the need to ask other antagonists (a ling) to potentially make it easier than "completely fucked the moment i even attempt it".

In isolation, an incident like this is whatever, can't always get what you want. However, the players that buddy up in this case have a history of doing this and more often than not picking the same job slots just to be together. At that point that can definitely be seen as using it as an IC benefit when the situation with rana isn't the only case, but one of many examples I've heard about this specific issue with these specific players among manuel players.

If anything, I think that the main thing that should be taken away from this is that maybe what counts as "IC benefits" should be clarified upon within rule 2, because as it stands it's VERY vague and can definitely lead to confusion as to what is and what isn't in violation of it.

[Khaaku]

Would it be considered somewhat more acceptable if the two were just hanging out in an already crowded area? It’s a pretty big reason why we avoid patrolling maints, since we feel bad for the antags.

[dendydoom]

i have no issue with this kind of thing when it fits in ICly, ie, two people take the same department because they want to interact with each other ICly, or they go assistant to just hang out and do whatever they want together. we can't stop people from being friends. where it becomes an issue is when it's something like the captain giving privileges and attention to an assistant because they're IC friends, and using station resources to make sure they're always safe.

it's also a concern around validhunting: the moment your friend isn't there, assuming they got got by the big bad antag man and running into maints with a spear to track them down is also bad. it breaks the rules around validhunting long before it enters into metagamey friend territory.

it's bad on the other end of the spectrum too: an antag giving a free pass to someone because they're friends. part of the fun of having friends is killing them...

of course, admins can and will act on anything that's excessively disruptive to the round. it's in our best interests to do so. but we should be identifying specific aspects of why people connected at the hip are bad for that round in particular (you aren't in the same department, one of you is giving too much privilege to the other for no real IC reason other than being friends, one of you is an antag so you shouldn't be giving a pass to this one person all the time, etc,) and not punishing them for the simple fact of being friends.

[Lacran]

I think the main situations where it becomes a problem in my eyes are:

The players involved don't seem interested in roleplaying or building rapport with anyone else.

The players prioritise their circle at the consistent and prolonged detriment of their assigned jobs.

When the group is together they become standoffish and unwelcoming to uninitiated players trying to interact with them.

When the group is together they largely ignore the round and don't interact with its events while also not adding any of their own.

That these people do this frequently and their conduct is drastically different when not around that particular social circle.

[Vekter]

If we're going to enshrine this in the rules (I'm not convinced we need to tbh), we need to consider the two primary things we're trying to combat here:

1) The use of IC relationships for OOC benefits, such as keeping the same people around so it's more difficult for antagonists to attack them
2) Clique behaviors such as what Lacran specifies in the last post, specifically the group refusing to interact with players outside of their group and not participating in the round as a whole

[Longestarmlonglaw]

If it pisses off an admin enough and they think you're gaining some tangible benefit from persistent across-shift friendships, yeah for sure it's against the rules. It's not even an MRP thing, LRP cliques occasionally get busted for this sort of grouping as well, but it caused less issues because antags would just maxcap mass gatherings for fun.

Timberpoes, you're wrong. Antagonists CANNOT maxcap mass gatherings on mrp because it would run afoul of the murderboning rule. Only on LRP they can do that.

[EmpressMaia]

If it pisses off an admin enough and they think you're gaining some tangible benefit from persistent across-shift friendships, yeah for sure it's against the rules. It's not even an MRP thing, LRP cliques occasionally get busted for this sort of grouping as well, but it caused less issues because antags would just maxcap mass gatherings for fun.

Timberpoes, you're wrong. Antagonists CANNOT maxcap mass gatherings on mrp because it would run afoul of the murderboning rule. Only on LRP they can do that.

Stop trying to bait people fuck off

[Longestarmlonglaw]

If it pisses off an admin enough and they think you're gaining some tangible benefit from persistent across-shift friendships, yeah for sure it's against the rules. It's not even an MRP thing, LRP cliques occasionally get busted for this sort of grouping as well, but it caused less issues because antags would just maxcap mass gatherings for fun.

Timberpoes, you're wrong. Antagonists CANNOT maxcap mass gatherings on mrp because it would run afoul of the murderboning rule. Only on LRP they can do that.

Stop trying to bait people fuck off

This is not bait, i literally said that because of how overbearing the mrp rules are, Also i only bait post in player's club if thats giving you peace of mind

[Timberpoes]

If it pisses off an admin enough and they think you're gaining some tangible benefit from persistent across-shift friendships, yeah for sure it's against the rules. It's not even an MRP thing, LRP cliques occasionally get busted for this sort of grouping as well, but it caused less issues because antags would just maxcap mass gatherings for fun.

Timberpoes, you're wrong. Antagonists CANNOT maxcap mass gatherings on mrp because it would run afoul of the murderboning rule. Only on LRP they can do that.

We have already altered these rules. Pray we do not alter them any further.

[dendydoom]

If it pisses off an admin enough and they think you're gaining some tangible benefit from persistent across-shift friendships, yeah for sure it's against the rules. It's not even an MRP thing, LRP cliques occasionally get busted for this sort of grouping as well, but it caused less issues because antags would just maxcap mass gatherings for fun.

Timberpoes, you're wrong. Antagonists CANNOT maxcap mass gatherings on mrp because it would run afoul of the murderboning rule. Only on LRP they can do that.

Stop trying to bait people fuck off

This is not bait, i literally said that because of how overbearing the mrp rules are, Also i only bait post in player's club if thats giving you peace of mind

just in case anyone makes the mistake of taking you seriously:

Causing death and destruction to help with indirectly accomplishing objectives must have an in-character roleplay reason. If questioned about a chain of events involving indirect actions, the antagonist should be able to clearly explain what events in the current shift led them to their course of action without resorting to hypotheticals.

If a player or department directly interferes with the completion of an objective, this is no longer a hypothetical as the antagonist can now point to specific events in the shift to justify their actions.

if you have an IC reason or it's in pursuit of your objectives (one of them is your target, etc) then collateral is fine. this has been the case for a long time.

[Misdoubtful]

If it pisses off an admin enough and they think you're gaining some tangible benefit from persistent across-shift friendships, yeah for sure it's against the rules. It's not even an MRP thing, LRP cliques occasionally get busted for this sort of grouping as well, but it caused less issues because antags would just maxcap mass gatherings for fun.

Timberpoes, you're wrong. Antagonists CANNOT maxcap mass gatherings on mrp because it would run afoul of the murderboning rule. Only on LRP they can do that.

Stop trying to bait people fuck off

This is not bait, i literally said that because of how overbearing the mrp rules are, Also i only bait post in player's club if thats giving you peace of mind

just in case anyone makes the mistake of taking you seriously:

Causing death and destruction to help with indirectly accomplishing objectives must have an in-character roleplay reason. If questioned about a chain of events involving indirect actions, the antagonist should be able to clearly explain what events in the current shift led them to their course of action without resorting to hypotheticals.

If a player or department directly interferes with the completion of an objective, this is no longer a hypothetical as the antagonist can now point to specific events in the shift to justify their actions.

if you have an IC reason or it's in pursuit of your objectives (one of them is your target, etc) then collateral is fine. this has been the case for a long time.

This is absolutely 100% correct.

That being said let's please try to keep this thread on the topic at hand posted in the original post. Let's NOT turn policy threads into arguments like this.

My thing is that I can look at how these 'workforce interrelationships' play out on other servers, and then how they do here.

The spirit of the game between environments has it's differences, and things are far more mechanically driven here.

Has anyone else had their experiences with other servers and people getting super glued together?

[nukularpower]

In isolation, an incident like this is whatever, can't always get what you want. However, the players that buddy up in this case have a history of doing this and more often than not picking the same job slots just to be together. At that point that can definitely be seen as using it as an IC benefit when the situation with rana isn't the only case, but one of many examples I've heard about this specific issue with these specific players among manuel players.

I bet I can guess who exactly you are talking about with 100% accuracy. For what its worth, I got one of them along with another doctor as obsessed targets a couple weeks ago, so no fancy antag toys. After some RP shennanigans I tried unsuccessfully 3 times to seperate them and then tried just attacking them both together, all of which was a complete failure for obvious reasons. So, I ended up maxcapping medbay to kill them both at once. This was on MRP and I didnt even get bwoinked for it (and yes, admemes were on.) It sucks for everyone caught in the blast but really, what the hell else are you gonna do?

[Sightld2]

As Misdoubtful and Timberpoes have both explained now. Yes. You can do that. You are ALLOWED to maxcap your objectives, its not in question at all.

[BrolyButterfingers]

If it pisses off an admin enough and they think you're gaining some tangible benefit from persistent across-shift friendships, yeah for sure it's against the rules. It's not even an MRP thing, LRP cliques occasionally get busted for this sort of grouping as well, but it caused less issues because antags would just maxcap mass gatherings for fun.

Timberpoes, you're wrong. Antagonists CANNOT maxcap mass gatherings on mrp because it would run afoul of the murderboning rule. Only on LRP they can do that.

Stop trying to bait people fuck off

This is not bait, i literally said that because of how overbearing the mrp rules are, Also i only bait post in player's club if thats giving you peace of mind

just in case anyone makes the mistake of taking you seriously:

Causing death and destruction to help with indirectly accomplishing objectives must have an in-character roleplay reason. If questioned about a chain of events involving indirect actions, the antagonist should be able to clearly explain what events in the current shift led them to their course of action without resorting to hypotheticals.

If a player or department directly interferes with the completion of an objective, this is no longer a hypothetical as the antagonist can now point to specific events in the shift to justify their actions.

if you have an IC reason or it's in pursuit of your objectives (one of them is your target, etc) then collateral is fine. this has been the case for a long time.

And on top of that, your IC reason can also be flimsy as fuck, like "They called me a goof", "They told me to go away", "They took something I wanted out of common storage", and even "They were annoying on the radio". As long as you're not just detonating a bomb because your lizard brain detected a player density higher than 0.1/tile in a given space, you're fine. They don't even have to be your targets.

[BrianBackslide]

I don't think this is a problem at all.

As it stands, per the rules, if I have a good reason to kill someone, I can. So if my target is piggybacking with someone then I get to kill TWO (plus) motherfuckers for deciding to play the buddy system. Does that mean I should bomb departments every shift? Of course not. But if you wanna hang around your metafriend, expect to get iced and take your L like a champ.

[Cobby]

If an antag has no way to feasibly interact w you because you’re making a point to permanently be near another player solely because of an OOC friendship that is pretty poor play. If you’re in the same job or you are tackling a common goal okayyyy, but even then if it gets to the point it’s done every round you need to spread your wings.

While there is no right to interesting plays, I think even on LRP if you get forced to only take large scale, no interaction attacks to complete a kill target everytime your target is one of these metafrienders, that takes away a lot of potential interactions and is overall a negative for the game.

[Constellado]

I personally think it would be nice to quantify how bad it has to be before it gets too bad.

There are times ocassionaly where I worry about how far I am getting with this particular issue. This is usually because !multiple! people like interacting with my character due to story arc situations. They will happily seek me out no matter where I am or what job I am. I love this as it allows for fun (almost guaranteed!) RP while I am a prisoner or whatnot but I now worry about when it moves from a overall good thing to a bad thing. I personally try to make sure I do not go too far. For example if I have a job to do I go do it on my own, or walk off as soon as I have an in character reason to.

A big part of the issue people bring up in the thread is if said group ends up being standoffish and doesn't interact with the round. I agree. That is cringe.

There are players that are so obviously together all the time that it sticks in your mind in a negative way. That is probably the cutoff point. Admin discresion.

[Bmon]

If you cannot bring yourself to kill your friends on an objective you are doing something wrong. Ahelp any example of this meta clownery

[Fren256]

If you cannot bring yourself to kill your friends on an objective you are doing something wrong. Ahelp any example of this meta clownery

Hard disagree, people play to tell a story. Unless this is a recurring issue or if they refuse to roleplay altogether, their friendship can be used as an opportunity to setup interesting scenarios, like ordering a traitor or sending an assassin to kill them both.

[Bmon]

If you cannot bring yourself to kill your friends on an objective you are doing something wrong. Ahelp any example of this meta clownery

Hard disagree, people play to tell a story. Unless this is a recurring issue or if they refuse to roleplay altogether, their friendship can be used as an opportunity to setup interesting scenarios, like ordering a traitor or sending an assassin to kill them both.

If you are gaining a tangible advantage from a meta friendship(like not being antagged by your meta friend even though you are their target) I take issue with that. To me that is a very obvious breach of the rules

[CMDR_Gungnir]

If you are gaining a tangible advantage from a meta friendship(like not being antagged by your meta friend even though you are their target) I take issue with that. To me that is a very obvious breach of the rules

Under MRP Rule 5 Precedent 1 Objectives are suggestions, even on MRP, as long as you're acting your role/doing...something, with it. At which point you'd run afoul of something else.

If you don't want to kill someone, you don't have to (unless not doing so would break some rule like a Mind Control or a Law), and the reason doesn't matter.

[Bmon]

If you are gaining a tangible advantage from a meta friendship(like not being antagged by your meta friend even though you are their target) I take issue with that. To me that is a very obvious breach of the rules

Under MRP Rule 5 Precedent 1 Objectives are suggestions, even on MRP, as long as you're acting your role/doing...something, with it. At which point you'd run afoul of something else.

If you don't want to kill someone, you don't have to (unless not doing so would break some rule like a Mind Control or a Law), and the reason doesn't matter.

agreed, but if your sole reason is "they're my metafriend" then that's cringe

[CMDR_Gungnir]

If you are gaining a tangible advantage from a meta friendship(like not being antagged by your meta friend even though you are their target) I take issue with that. To me that is a very obvious breach of the rules

Under MRP Rule 5 Precedent 1 Objectives are suggestions, even on MRP, as long as you're acting your role/doing...something, with it. At which point you'd run afoul of something else.

If you don't want to kill someone, you don't have to (unless not doing so would break some rule like a Mind Control or a Law), and the reason doesn't matter.

agreed, but if your sole reason is "they're my metafriend" then that's cringe

Sure, but I imagine the reason is more likely "My character wouldn't kill their friend", at which point as long as they're still finding something to do, I don't (personally) see any issue. Besides, past precedent has shown that you're allowed to metagrudge as an antag, as long as you don't take the antag role specifically TO metagrudge.

I don't see the harm in the opposite.

[Cobby]

You should be able to zombie powder your target and give a fake confirmation but future antags will have a priority to target you for betraying the syndicate.

Generally speaking I think you should be playing to win but doing it in such a way that it’s just A priority and not the utmost one (else why get objectives). Specifically for meta friend sparing, I don’t really understand how there is a story to be created when the game nor admins (and certainly not the other players who prob welcome you not killing them) are expected to push back on the action. You could argue there’s some RP internal conflict but I think that doesn’t take away from the fact that your role is ultimately to be a conflict to the station. Metagrudging still provides that station level conflict, not hurting someone because of metafriending does not (unless you’re creating conflict elsewhere).

I’m not sure to what degree it should be admin bound but you should be antagging in SOME way if you’re antag imo. Else just give someone else the slot.

[MooCow12]

I wanna also add that ontop of being in the same department as another person giving some plausible leeway i often interact with other crew of the same species as me the most and there are some rounds where there are very very few lizards other than me

[dendydoom]

Specifically for meta friend sparing, I don’t really understand how there is a story to be created when the game nor admins (and certainly not the other players who prob welcome you not killing them) are expected to push back on the action. You could argue there’s some RP internal conflict but I think that doesn’t take away from the fact that your role is ultimately to be a conflict to the station. Metagrudging still provides that station level conflict, not hurting someone because of metafriending does not (unless you’re creating conflict elsewhere).

what matters to me when considering situations like this is how much effort they put into translating those thoughts into tangible narrative content. if someone is having an internal crisis over being asked to kill their friend, then they should show that conflict in their RP so that the situation actually creates dynamic content for the round. it is a story at that point.

but the vast majority of these situations are just people conveniently ignoring their friends and it has 0 effect on the IC narrative because it never comes up in any IC way. it's just a mechanical gameplay choice, and this is an issue because it gives an unfair mechanical advantage to interconnected groups of players.

[Donglesplonge]

at a certain point you just go "man looks like its time to hellfoam medical then decap the person i have to kill", manuel antags don't play nearly as aggressively as they should, you can purchase explosives for a reason, use them

that pretty much sums it up, the supposed piggyback problem does exist but its a by-product of peoples fears of not taking initiative like they should, more or less

albeit there are some times in which you do just have to go "man this fucking sucks", heretics and lings in particular suffer harder from the metafriending ideal because they don't have easy access to instakill crowd control quite like a traitor does, albeit they still do get pretty good killing tools for it (me when 14 beepskies suddenly stroll out of maintenance while we have no roboticists staffed on station)

this is also a segway into me saying that yes its morally sound to kill paramedics and janitors for fun, completely personal bias i will admit that and its wholly off-topic but if they see you ice them

[Cheshify]

Let me start this off by saying that I am speaking from both sides here. I used to be the kind of person who would hang out with another player all shift and never leave their side, then I was bwoinked about it and realised how unfun it makes the game for other players and stopped that kind of behaviour. Yet admin rulings about this kind of thing seem inconsistent. Some admins think that following one player every round gives an unfair advantage, while others don't mind.

So I pose to you, is never leaving another player's side all round every round against the rules?

I'm not talking about hanging out with someone for a portion of the shift, either. I mean ALL shift never leaving their side.

We (as a headmin team) agree that being glued to another player at all times every round isn't good behaviour for round health, as it gives two people an unfair advantage against the paranoia of the game, doubly so if one roles antagonist and the other now has an escalation-exempt bodyguard. Luckily, this is handled under Rule 2 Precedent 3:

Character friendships should not be exploitative in nature or be used to gain an unfair advantage. Having an IC friendship with another player does not, for example, justify giving them all-access each round.

Admins (including myself) have talked to players who spent far too much time piggybacking together round after round when it's become an issue, and admins can continue doing so.

Cheshify - Enforced it
Xemo - Approved it
Fikou - +1'd it