The Cytology Mapping Problem

[Farquaar]

Cytology is a pitifully unloved feature. It has so much potential, but at the moment, only the basic building blocks are there. This is not a thread about how to improve cytology as a mechanic, however. Rather, my goal is to illustrate what mappers can do to foster the use and expansion of this super-cool feature.

Cytology is almost completely unsupported in nearly every map in rotation. Tramstation is the only map with a dedicated cytology lab, and even then, it lacks a ton of important equipment. Meta has a tiny alcove in xenobio with a kitchen knife, but other than that it's barren. Delta, Icebox and Kilo just have plop a cytology equipment locker in xenobio and leave the cytologist to construct their own lab and machines every single shift. And people wonder why nobody ever does cytology?

The Protein Problem

(Read this if you want to understand the underlying issues)

Spoiler:

Even the most basic cell lines require 10u of protein to grow. There are two main ways to get protein: Meat slabs, and cooked food.

Cooked Food
The latter method relies on three things to be true on any given shift.

• 1. There is a chef on staff
  2. The chef isn't dead or useless
  3. The chef's playstyle involves mass-producing protein-rich food

Even on highpop, it's very, very rare that this will happen. Thus, the primary way to get protein is through meat slabs.

Meat Slabs
While monkey cubes are plentiful in xenobio, cytologists have no equipment with which to butcher monkeys at the start of the shift. No meatspike. No gibber. Nothing. While a xenobiologist can mass produce gold slime monsters with a touch of a button, cytologists are required to:

• 1. Walk to the protolathe to get metal
  2. Build a meat spike
  3. Fill a grey slime extract with blood (must breed grey slimes if no one is doing xenobiology)
  4. Activate the monkey cubes with a fire extinguisher
  5. Haul the monkey onto the meatspike
  6. Stab the monkey to death and butcher it (will need to obtain a kitchen knife from kitchen/cargo on most maps)
  7. Sift grab the meat, grind the slabs in the grinder, and separate out the protein in the chemmaster.

The problem? This takes forever. Cytologists are already required to crawl through maint to find swabbable samples, bug botany for large quantities of crops, bug chemistry for mid-high tier medicines, grind up and bottle everything they find, and more. Sure, they *can* obtain protein. But it takes so long that by the time you're finally ready to roll, the shuttle is being called.

We have to remember that xenobiologists can mass-produce gold slime monsters with a syringe and a few button-presses. Cytology needs to start with the proper equipment and supplies if people are to actually have fun doing it.

How Mappers Can Solve the Problem

(Read this if nothing else)

• 1. Every map needs a cytology lab. Cytology is distinct enough from xenobiology that it should have its own area to play in, even if only adjacent.
  2. Cytology labs should have a secure containment/growing pen. A lot of cytology spawns are dangerous, and cytologists shouldn't have to experiment out in the open.
  3. Cytology labs should start with the equipment to obtain protein. This could mean a gibber, a meatspike and knife, or another more creative solution.
  4. There should be some protein available and the start of the shift. Virologists start with virus food and chems, so why shouldn't cytologists start with a little bit of protein?

My hope is that if these mapping suggestions are implemented, more people will try cytology. More people trying cytology means more support for developing cytology as a feature. Like the cell lines themselves, cytology's got a ton of growth potential, but the game needs to acknowledge its existence and give it the ingredients it needs to thrive.

[Farquaar]

Addendum

After some experimentation, I’ve realized that the most effective way to do cytology is not as a scientist, but as a botanist. The biogenerator can create infinite protein in the form of tofu, and crop-growing can provide you with most of the chemicals you could possibly need.

Make of this information as you will. Some maps, like IceBox and Meta, place hydroponics in close proximity to the science department. Others, like Delta and Tram, place it remarkably far away. Personally, while I think it is good that cytologists have incentives to cooperate with hydroponics, I don’t believe it’s ideal for their job to be almost completely dependant on them. Chemistry would be a slog if every single base chemical required you to grind vegetables- cytology would be no different.

TL;DR Hydroponics is better equipped to do cytology than the science department. This should not be the case.

[Farquaar]

Addendum 2

Bump

[cacogen]

1. What is cytology?
2. Why should I learn it?

Also if it means that much to you you should just add these additions to at least one map yourself, if only as a proof of concept for adding them to the other ones.

[Jonathan Gupta]

bump

Give me a few days I got a few ideas for this.

[Bawhoppennn]

If I recall correctly, the creator of cytology (I think Floyd?) distinctly didn't want there to be a separate room for cytology, and wanted it to be part of a grander super xenobio room. That led to an issue with mappers about whether it should or shouldn't have one at the time, and I think that unresolved conflict is why people have yet to really map any rooms for it. I am not really sure what having it be the same room would accomplish from a flow/gameplay/etc perspective, as having distinct rooms adds a lot of dynamics to the game experience in many ways. I think it should be one, though probably in close proximity to primary xenobio, considering the subject overlap.

[Farquaar]

1. What is cytology?
2. Why should I learn it?

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Guide_to_cytology
I can't blame you for not knowing much about it. I firmly believe that one of the reasons cytology hasn't seen much development is because the vast majority of players don't even know it exists, and those that do know it exists never play around with it. You basically have to build your own cytology lab every round, and all that extra work only gives you access to what essentially amounts a more flexible gold slime reaction. It's got a lot of untapped potential, but can only kick off when mappers make the feature accessible to the average player.

Also if it means that much to you you should just add these additions to at least one map yourself, if only as a proof of concept for adding them to the other ones.

That would be ideal, but I'm not much of a mapper. Best I can do is articulate the issues as best I can and hope an enterprising mapper implements them.

If I recall correctly, the creator of cytology (I think Floyd?) distinctly didn't want there to be a separate room for cytology, and wanted it to be part of a grander super xenobio room. That led to an issue with mappers about whether it should or shouldn't have one at the time, and I think that unresolved conflict is why people have yet to really map any rooms for it. I am not really sure what having it be the same room would accomplish from a flow/gameplay/etc perspective, as having distinct rooms adds a lot of dynamics to the game experience in many ways. I think it should be one, though probably in close proximity to primary xenobio, considering the subject overlap.

I can understand that original sentiment. However, if cytology is supposed to fit into xenobio, then xenobio has to be appropriately redesigned. My preference would be to have a dedicated area within xenobio for cytology (more than just a locker and microscope) or an adjacent labroom with the appropriate equipment.

[Technoturnovers]

You should probably hassle a maintainer into writing a mapping design doc for this issue, so that mappers will be able to add these machines and equipment without needing to worry about Gay Baby Points™.

[EuSouAFazenda]

Question from a non-enlightened - that is, I never did Cytology myself but am interested in.

Assuming you somehow got access to a ChemMaster, can you do Cytology as a Cargo Technician / Quartermaster?

From what I read from the wiki, the Cytologies Supply Crate can give all of the machinery and equipment needed except for the growing vats, wich I'm not sure if you can make with the plumbing constructor? If you can, then you have everything.
The Excellent Meat Crate is a very easy way to get 15 meat slabs, and you have access to a lot of the stuff Hydroponics can make by just purchasing Vegetable or Food Crates. On top of all that you can still purchase monkey cubes or other live, whole animals to get specific things you may want.

However, what distinguishes Cargo Techs from Scientists and Botanists... is its ability to bring evil upon this world.
Order the Standard Costume Crate - wich, sadly, is ID locked to the Theater - however I think the clown will happily open it up for an extra bike horn, or the mime for an extra bottle of nothing. Or you can steal the KC from Aux Base.
1 out of 2. The Food Crate has guaranteed bananas in it - the Bartender will make juice of it. If he doesn't, bribe him with the bottle of nothing, if you still have it.

Congratulations, you damn bastard. You now have everything to create not just the general run-of-the-mill cytology monsters, but you can speak unspeakable clown evils onto the world. I hope you're happy with yourself.


EDIT: I ALMOST FORGOT!
As a QM / Cargo Technician, you have access to Mining Buddies. Wich means: Lazarus Injectors. You have a way to make stuff sentient - even if there aren't miners there's a Lazarus in the vault in Meta iirc. So when you make your Banana Glutton, you can make it sentient, for even more pain.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Much as i've seen in my limited revisting the server and reading up about it, the xenobiology "pattern" pens made over and over for different maps wouldnt work for 'creative-cytology' which is what people have to build for themselves now. My proposition for a simplified cytology chamber would be to streamline the cytolology process by making reagent plumbing input connected to a "cytology duct" in a sealed cell, the duct has a fixed self replicating culture and with reagent input, slimes appear out of the floor.

Monkey cubes having monkey powder (?), and getting the protein out of the monkies again is obviously a hurdle as well as justifying the reactions of grey-slime cores but its definitely there. Outside of the station's science department, this could be just as effortless with simple protein inputs in return for simple summons as i believe all the mechanical components to do such a thing are already in place with the space set aside in places like the garden & virology. (see childlike picture detailed below)

Spoiler:

(post editing clarification, the monkeys from the cubes, not the cubes themselves, im not completely SS13 senile)

If it was needed to be sabotaged, the unique unreproducible ducts could be emagged and a new swab of culture inserted, it could only be turned off by diuting the cytology pool with suppressents or disconnecting the pipes.

[Stickymayhem]

As someone who in the past has been the champion of esoteric underloved science domains like telescience and the experimentor, I'm looking at the cytology outputs and I'm just not seeing the thrill really. There are a few very cool unique mobs to play with but otherwise it just doesn't feel all that different to xenobiology despite the intricacy, fun and complexity of the core mechanics.

Until mobs are customisable or there are some other valuable outputs I don't see myself playing with this system all that much

[Qustinnus]

After the freeze, after basic mobs are merged, I'm planning to re-do xenobiology to make cytology and xeno-biology rely on each other. making slimes eat the output of xenobiology and removing the rng from xenobio

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Tried to get into Cytology today, picked up all the needed kit then looked at the random grab bag assortment of rare/unusual reagants needed to even begin experimenting with this feature and gave up because I didnt feel like going on a scavenger hunt to start practicing. I'll just wait until there's a cheat sheet out that tells you exactly what reagents you need to develop each outcome from each of the sample combinations i guess

[cacogen]

Recently I've seen some sentient cubes with the artstyle of something like Risk of Rain being pulled around which I think may be from cytology? That sort of piqued my interest but as Sticky pointed out they don't seem to do anything.

I hope forcing people to do cytology by shoehorning it into xenobiology instead of just properly incentivising it with decent rewards doesn't result in xenobiology becoming slower. It's already pretty tedious and fiddly but overall it's one of the more satisfying jobs in the game.

[Okand37]

Implementing a sort of prototype cytology laboratory underneath a reworked xenobiology laboratory for multi-z Kilostation. Essentially moved the existing cytology equipment on other stations to its own distinct area below the xenobiology labs with its own assortment of pens for experimentation. I've included no additional job-specific equipment compared to existing station's cytology setups.

Xenobiology & Cytology Labs

Spoiler:

[Farquaar]

Question from a non-enlightened - that is, I never did Cytology myself but am interested in.

Assuming you somehow got access to a ChemMaster, can you do Cytology as a Cargo Technician / Quartermaster?

Theoretically, yes. Though it would certainly be a huge pain, maybe slightly less of a pain than if you were a scientist. Making your creations sentient would still require cooperation with xenobio, but that's true of all alt-setups for cytology.

Personally, I've found that cytology is easiest to do as a botanist. Bring a cytology locker to hydroponics, mass produce some tofu with the biogenerator, and go nuts.

Much as i've seen in my limited revisting the server and reading up about it, the xenobiology "pattern" pens made over and over for different maps wouldnt work for 'creative-cytology' which is what people have to build for themselves now. My proposition for a simplified cytology chamber would be to streamline the cytolology process by making reagent plumbing input connected to a "cytology duct" in a sealed cell, the duct has a fixed self replicating culture and with reagent input, slimes appear out of the floor.

Monkey cubes having monkey powder (?), and getting the protein out of the monkies again is obviously a hurdle as well as justifying the reactions of grey-slime cores but its definitely there. Outside of the station's science department, this could be just as effortless with simple protein inputs in return for simple summons as i believe all the mechanical components to do such a thing are already in place with the space set aside in places like the garden & virology. (see childlike picture detailed below)

Not a terrible idea, but I think it may overcorrect the problem by making it a bit too easy to mass produce creatures. There's a middle ground to be found here, though.

As someone who in the past has been the champion of esoteric underloved science domains like telescience and the experimentor, I'm looking at the cytology outputs and I'm just not seeing the thrill really. There are a few very cool unique mobs to play with but otherwise it just doesn't feel all that different to xenobiology despite the intricacy, fun and complexity of the core mechanics.

Until mobs are customisable or there are some other valuable outputs I don't see myself playing with this system all that much

Sad, but true. In my opinion, cytology either needs to be made a lot more interesting, or changed to require a lot less busywork (so it can be done "part-time", so to speak)

After the freeze, after basic mobs are merged, I'm planning to re-do xenobiology to make cytology and xeno-biology rely on each other. making slimes eat the output of xenobiology and removing the rng from xenobio

Sounds awesome and I'm incredibly hyped.

Tried to get into Cytology today, picked up all the needed kit then looked at the random grab bag assortment of rare/unusual reagants needed to even begin experimenting with this feature and gave up because I didnt feel like going on a scavenger hunt to start practicing. I'll just wait until there's a cheat sheet out that tells you exactly what reagents you need to develop each outcome from each of the sample combinations i guess

I did some code-diving a few months ago and catalogued all swabbable items, cell lines, and reagents. But I agree with you 100% that the amount of prepwork sucks all the fun out of it. Even if you want to do something crazy (i.e. building chicken dispensers in the kitchen), you'll never have enough time to pull it off.

Implementing a sort of prototype cytology laboratory underneath a reworked xenobiology laboratory for multi-z Kilostation. Essentially moved the existing cytology equipment on other stations to its own distinct area below the xenobiology labs with its own assortment of pens for experimentation. I've included no additional job-specific equipment compared to existing station's cytology setups.

Xenobiology & Cytology Labs

Spoiler:

Not sure if it addresses the protein problem, but definitely a huge step up from before. Good stuff!

[Kryson]

Recently I've seen some sentient cubes with the artstyle of something like Risk of Rain being pulled around which I think may be from cytology? That sort of piqued my interest but as Sticky pointed out they don't seem to do anything..

The cubes are actually probably the strongest mob in all of xenobiology, and not that terribly difficult to make.

Theoretically, yes. Though it would certainly be a huge pain, maybe slightly less of a pain than if you were a scientist. Making your creations sentient would still require cooperation with xenobio, but that's true of all alt-setups for cytology.

I plan on adding an alternative way of granting mobs sentience. Once cytology splicing is implemented, the blob spore splice will grant sentience.

Personally, while I think it is good that cytologists have incentives to cooperate with hydroponics, I don’t believe it’s ideal for their job to be almost completely dependant on them.

This is because many of our reagents that are non-trivial to obtain(not dispenser trash) are derived from botany. One of the design goals was that cytology should not be able to be done by bolting yourself inside with a chem dispenser, i feel the design has at least been effective in forcing scientists to go outside and interact with the round. I feel that in my experience, going to the garden or asking botany is fine for obtaining 1-2 types of crops.

I will be examining all the new non-dispenser and ghetto craftable reagents that have been added since i designed cytology and see if they are suitable for cytology inclusion.

The protein issue will be solved when arcanes meat fix is merged.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/60696

A simple fix that has been open for 25 days.

A big problem with cytology has been that the unique mobs have kept breaking and we are just now getting caught up in fixing the bugs.

My current plans for cytology include:

bugfix, buff and beautify the sholean grapes mob. Most pressingly, the falloff chance of the healing globules needs to be greatly decreased.
buff and bugfix the banana glutton. It currently breaks when eating bananas and is too squishy for how big and slow it is.
Add more suppressive reagents to nuisance mobs such as cockroaches to make them easier to suppress.
Add an autosampler functionally to vats to automatically start growing another mob after the first one in finished.
Add more existing mobs to cytology: magmawing and icewing watchers, hivelords, morphs, etc.
Add cytology splices, a system where mobs grown together with another cell line takes traits from the minor contributing cell lines. If you for example grow a cow, but the spider cell line in the vat reaches above 20%, the cow will be able to lay down webs.
Add cytology chimaeras; Unique mobs made by growing two or more trash mobs together. This helps give a use to the less useful cell lines.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Spoiler:

Recently I've seen some sentient cubes with the artstyle of something like Risk of Rain being pulled around which I think may be from cytology? That sort of piqued my interest but as Sticky pointed out they don't seem to do anything..

The cubes are actually probably the strongest mob in all of xenobiology, and not that terribly difficult to make.

I plan on adding an alternative way of granting mobs sentience. Once cytology splicing is implemented, the blob spore splice will grant sentience.

A big problem with cytology has been that the unique mobs have kept breaking and we are just now getting caught up in fixing the bugs.

My current plans for cytology include:
Add more existing mobs to cytology: magmawing and icewing watchers, hivelords, morphs, etc.
Add cytology splices, a system where mobs grown together with another cell line takes traits from the minor contributing cell lines. If you for example grow a cow, but the spider cell line in the vat reaches above 20%, the cow will be able to lay down webs. - Add cytology chimaeras
Add cytology chimaeras; Unique mobs made by growing two or more trash mobs together. This helps give a use to the less useful cell lines.

I have a complaint in your and @Okand's proposals in that many of these creatures have the criteria to be typically damage & attrition resistant (feeding slimes, conventional firearms/lasers, draining o2, gassing to death) and least in Okand's prototype images, doesn't address this especially with the proposed large lavaland creatures balanced to be killed exclusively with melee & pressurization equipment behind a single pane of glass and a door, with ineffective gas output (all subject to change of course, but i would only trust the safety of the xenobio main-chamber shielded blast doors for containing at least bears & blob-creatures).

I think my scaled back proposal for cytology is more reasonable in the application across the map, for tackling topics like trying to move spacemen away from voluntary cannibalism on MRP; by easily providing a source of beef-cow to the garden and how easily the ambience would be improved in public areas with a butterfly dispenser for productive, inoffensive mobs without tampering. Not to shoot you down that making a better fully edible cow that dispenses chocolate milk by mixing with a Cak wouldn't be welcome @Kryson, self-culturing would be the exact flexible cyto-dispense method i would be looking for.

[Farquaar]

After the freeze, after basic mobs are merged, I'm planning to re-do xenobiology to make cytology and xeno-biology rely on each other. making slimes eat the output of xenobiology and removing the rng from xenobio

Anyone else still dreaming of this rework? :_)