Reworks are terrible and should stop

[Shadowflame909]

Hot Take: You see a system that's been in the game for multiple years. Go "This is bad. Let me do better." and destroy the old system to replace it with your better version of it.


Instead of adding onto the old system, you destroy it and make a new system with new rules!

This is bad because you're leaving people with less content overall with this constant flux of building and re-building. Instead of continuously building up the new system to where the content is endless.


@t me.

[oranges]

embrace the chaos of change

[Armhulen]

Change is the lifeblood of the game

[XivilaiAnaxes]

That's a stupid line of thought.

Singularity was replaced completely by super matter.

Singuloth is a little funny as a meme but other than that it sucks dick in every way compared to the SM.

Replacing dead end systems with no room to add depth with detailed systems is a good move.

[Shadowflame909]

Singularity still had room to go and grow

BSA'S can destroy singularities now

Throwing the clown into the singularity can cause it to decrease 5 levels or increase 5 levels.


I'm still waiting on my singulo tesla fusion where tesla orbs orbit the singulo. Husking peeps before they eat them, and creating a teleporting black hole.

[wesoda25]

Shadowflame I’m sorry but i just don’t have the strength for any more of your content posts, please just have mercy

[Super Aggro Crag]

Small mind

[XivilaiAnaxes]

Singularity still had room to go and grow

BSA'S can destroy singularities now

Throwing the clown into the singularity can cause it to decrease 5 levels or increase 5 levels.


I'm still waiting on my singulo tesla fusion where tesla orbs orbit the singulo. Husking peeps before they eat them, and creating a teleporting black hole.

?????

I'm not sure how to even reply to this nonsense.

Spooky crystal with dozens of intangible variables allowing for hours of experimentation and countless opportunities to show off how robust you are.

Verses

Lol like if someone lets singuloth loose which takes like 2 seconds you could maybe throw a clown in it for a 50/50 OR use the artillery that isn't even available in half of the rounds to blow it up :DDD

??????bruh???????

so the black hole that hard round removes you? lmao bro what if it soft round removed you first before immediately hard removing you? wouldn't that be an amazing use of coder time?

[cacogen]

You see a system that's been in the game for multiple years. Go "This is bad. Let me do better." and destroy the old system to replace it with your better version of it.

exactly this. then the new version invariably sucks or is broken and takes months or years, many coders and commits to get it to the point where it's at least as functional as the system before it, which was probably better anyway because it had been tweaked and developed for longer.

i think the development of this game works better with small improvements/corrections over time rather than a single auteur/autist like iamgoofball deciding they know best, blowing up the old and replacing it with their half-assed broken bullshit that other people then need to fix

[oranges]

clearly neither of you have seen how this games development progresses then

[cacogen]

i don't think you can follow that up with anything

it's either incremental fixes/tweaks/additions/removals or a genius deciding they know best and replacing something old and functional with something new, poorly thought out and buggy/unbalanced/ugly/unfun that then takes a long time and multiple people to make into something remotely comparable to what came before

[NecromancerAnne]

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Does anyone really care to bring back old genetics for example? How is new genetics not a massive improvement from that?

[deedubya]

Reworks are not universally bad. Reworking mining to being lavaland based(instead of the old mining asteroid) was good. Reworking combat to be less stun-based was good. I prefer the old methods, but most people prefer the reworks to genetics and R&D as well. Hell, even the much derided cobbmed was a good soft rework.

Also, someone brought up the old engines as an example of a positive rework. These people are wrong. These things weren't reworked. Those old engines still exist. This is a good example of adding onto an already good system, rather than gutting it and replacing it with what you thought was best.

[cacogen]

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Does anyone really care to bring back old genetics for example? How is new genetics not a massive improvement from that?

this is stupid

Reworks are not universally bad. Reworking mining to being lavaland based(instead of the old mining asteroid) was good. Reworking combat to be less stun-based was good. I prefer the old methods, but most people prefer the reworks to genetics and R&D as well.

this is good

[oranges]

i don't think you can follow that up with anything

it's either incremental fixes/tweaks/additions/removals or a genius deciding they know best and replacing something old and functional with something new, poorly thought out and buggy/unbalanced/ugly/unfun that then takes a long time and multiple people to make into something remotely comparable to what came before

I have vastly more experience than you and i'm telling you that complete reworks is how half this game was built fool.

Cobby chem, goof chem, new mining, new medbay, new stun combat, new security, new brig, new botany, new new botany.

New virology, the new genetics stolen from goon.

Powernet rework

[oranges]

supermatter engine,

new maps

new lighting system (completely different)

mso's new subsystems

asset cache

original tgui, new tgui, nanoui (we dabbled)

all of these were replacements of the old.

Every single one of htem has been a resounding success.

[oranges]

if we had a cowardly vision like yours, that refuses to embrace change, and allow bold new things, we would have the playerbase of bay and hippie.

A codebase defined by a particular vision in a point in time is doomed to die, as the players from that period move on, and they will move on.

Embracing and accepting change for changes sake is the ONLY way to stay relevant, to stay current.

We do that better and faster than anyone else and THAT is what makes us the preeminent number one codebase.

[oranges]

in summary get your shit outta my face NOW

[cacogen]

a lot of those examples don't apply and are just there to inflate the list. i accept deedubya's point that some of the reworks we've had have been good though

i don't think your reckless, impulsive and uncaring approach is good for the game unless the people doing reworks are smart and dedicated enough to create something good off the bat. otherwise it will take significant work on behalf of multiple people for months afterwards fixing the problems. we saw this with goofchem, we're seeing it with cobbychem. and when something that isn't integral to gameplay is overhauled, there's no guarantee the system will stay (e.g. gangs, clockwork cult) and not just get removed entirely because regardless of how functional it is people don't like it.

we aren't preeminent. we lost a lot of players at the end of last year, not sure why. we used to be. and it was because of the work done before you and the reputation the server gained as a result, not the destructive and disinterested way you're treating the codebase now. and if we want to play here or contribute to the repo we just have to accept that you're happy to make these big judgement calls despite not even playing.

[PKPenguin321]

How is it possible to get this many (You)s with such an abysmal thread topic
I have much to learn

[XivilaiAnaxes]

Also, someone brought up the old engines as an example of a positive rework. These people are wrong. These things weren't reworked. Those old engines still exist. This is a good example of adding onto an already good system, rather than gutting it and replacing it with what you thought was best.

Are you seriously debating the semantic of "rework vs addition" when you might see a singularity engine once in a thousand rounds? Engines were reworked not "added to" don't be stupid.

Fucks sake Dee, sometimes I think you're alright why do you have to keep me guessing with this shit?

Although I do agree "Change for the sake of change" is a bonobo philosophy if not tempered individually with an end net gain result.

[deedubya]

Embracing and accepting change for changes sake is the ONLY way to stay relevant, to stay current.

We do that better and faster than anyone else and THAT is what makes us the preeminent number one codebase.

Change for the sake of change is a good way to cycle out players, not grow a playerbase. Remaining consistent and improving what you have is how you retain the most players while also attracting new ones.

Going "hey look new thing!" isn't going to bring new players in. They don't care if you have "new thing". At best, "hey look new thing" may bring back a tiny fraction of burnt out old players. A new player will check out this server regardless of if you keep changing shit just to keep it fresh. What you think it will do is help player retention by making sure they don't run out of shit to do, but this isn't the case either. First off, development moves at a glacial pace compared to how fast an average ss13 player will experience the new updated content. Second, player burnout never happens because of a stagnant codebase. It happens for a myriad of other reasons, usually relating to the core gameplay loop of ss13. What you actually do by changing and reworking shit that didn't need to be changed(or even stuff that did need changing) is piss off the players that enjoyed the thing that you replaced, who will then leave as a result. Those are players you won't get back. Those are players who feel like they've been fucked and abandoned by the people designing the game, and will never trust your judgement again.

Since you mentioned experience, take it from someone with actual experience in the field of game design: Don't replace or remove unless it's necessary. Add to it. Add alternatives to it. Tweak it. Find what works and stick to it. The only time you should ever be gutting something is if it's simply unsound from a design perspective, or if it's so wildly unpopular that it's causing you to hemorrhage players uncontrollably. Every time you gut or replace something, you get a net loss. Every time you do it, the losses get worse. You'd better be damn sure it's worth it.



Also, you're delusional if you think /tg/ is the number one codebase. Objectively speaking, goon is the codebase model from which nearly all other codebases are derived from. They have standards and direction. There's a reason that every time they have a forced public repo, every codebase rebases to goon as much as possible. /tg/ is only widely used as an upstream because it's open source. More people would be playing on goon's servers as well if it didn't have such an atrocious administration. This isn't a slight to the people that have worked on any open source repo, nor an endorsement of goon's elitist attitude towards their server and closed source development - simply a statement of fact.

[Qustinnus]

It sounds more like you have an issue with specific authors rather than reworks in general. There's been loads of good reworks and reworks happen for a lot of reasons.

[deedubya]

On the contrary, I just finished praising a few major reworks earlier in this thread. It's pointless removals that I have an issue with, alongside the statements by oranges saying "change for change's sake is good" and "that's why we're the best". Lunacy.

I know he won't take in a single word I said because he thinks he knows better - but you know what, that's fine. Let's see where this project goes under the direction and vision of one person. It'll make or break this place. I'm a firm believer in projects that are the creative, no-compromise vision of a single person at the head. Even if they fail, I respect the attempt. I'll still criticize the methods and wish that the target audience was considered a bit more during the process, but you do you.

[Mickyan]

This take is so hot it should be banned for being a fire hazard

[ABearInTheWoods]

Here's a hot take:

Reworks just delete the last n years of bug fixes and replaces them with new and unknown bugs but rewriting systems is the only way to understand them well enough to bugfix them so it keeps persisting purely as a shortcut to understanding a system.

[Mickyan]

That seems like conflating gameplay reworks with code refactors

[Stickymayhem]

lets rework the orange

[oranges]

Here's a hot take:

Reworks just delete the last n years of bug fixes and replaces them with new and unknown bugs but rewriting systems is the only way to understand them well enough to bugfix them so it keeps persisting purely as a shortcut to understanding a system.

[oranges]

Also, you're delusional if you think /tg/ is the number one codebase. Objectively speaking, goon is the codebase model from which nearly all other codebases are derived from. They have standards and direction. There's a reason that every time they have a forced public repo, every codebase rebases to goon as much as possible.

Not a single codebase has even come close to "rebasing" to goon.

/tg/ is only widely used as an upstream because it's open source. More people would be playing on goon's servers as well if it didn't have such an atrocious administration. This isn't a slight to the people that have worked on any open source repo, nor an endorsement of goon's elitist attitude towards their server and closed source development - simply a statement of fact.

You deny the truth of the statement while verifying it's accuracy, unbelievable!

[Flatulent]

it’s better to have code from 2020 that is being actively updated than to have code from 1928 that only God himself understands today

not to mention that people would evidently rather fix bugs from new features than fix really old fucking bugs

reworks are necessary to keep the game fresh - see cobbychem and plumbing. The latter isn’t being done anymore mostly, and dealing with the former is more interesting from gameplay perspective than just slapping a trekchem patch on yourself and calling it a day. Adding new features is just not enough to keep shit from being stagnant. After changes to BEPIS, major additions to xenobiology, and addition of nanite research, Sci gameplay hasn’t changed in the slightest. You still do the same shit you would do before.

[PKPenguin321]

Also, you're delusional if you think /tg/ is the number one codebase. Objectively speaking, goon is the codebase model from which nearly all other codebases are derived from. They have standards and direction. There's a reason that every time they have a forced public repo, every codebase rebases to goon as much as possible. /tg/ is only widely used as an upstream because it's open source. More people would be playing on goon's servers as well if it didn't have such an atrocious administration. This isn't a slight to the people that have worked on any open source repo, nor an endorsement of goon's elitist attitude towards their server and closed source development - simply a statement of fact.

this post is delusional

[Ayy Lemoh]

Also, you're delusional if you think /tg/ is the number one codebase. Objectively speaking, goon is the codebase model from which nearly all other codebases are derived from. They have standards and direction. There's a reason that every time they have a forced public repo, every codebase rebases to goon as much as possible.

Not a single codebase has even come close to "rebasing" to goon.

When gooncode got leaked and then public released, I saw people start dissing it in coding general by saying it's still shit like goon 2016. I bet that if lifeweb code got leaked then a bunch of coders here would immediately look into it for ten minutes before calling it shit.

Whether their opinions are right or wrong, I don't know. I just know that I don't think anyone tries to rebase much of anything to Goon unless it's way better than what other servers have currently (ex: genetics, chat, etc)

[PKPenguin321]

Also, you're delusional if you think /tg/ is the number one codebase. Objectively speaking, goon is the codebase model from which nearly all other codebases are derived from. They have standards and direction. There's a reason that every time they have a forced public repo, every codebase rebases to goon as much as possible.

Not a single codebase has even come close to "rebasing" to goon.

When gooncode got leaked and then public released, I saw people start dissing it in coding general by saying it's still shit like goon 2016. I bet that if lifeweb code got leaked then a bunch of coders here would immediately look into it for ten minutes before calling it shit.

Whether their opinions are right or wrong, I don't know. I just know that I don't think anyone tries to rebase much of anything to Goon unless it's way better than what other servers have currently (ex: genetics, chat, etc)

We didn't even "rebase" to goon, one guy just wrote like half of their system from scratch. I don't think a single LoC was copypasted from the goon repo

[actioninja]

ITT: incoherent shadowflame posting while deedub talks authoritatively about something he has no concept of.

[deedubya]

Also, you're delusional if you think /tg/ is the number one codebase. Objectively speaking, goon is the codebase model from which nearly all other codebases are derived from. They have standards and direction. There's a reason that every time they have a forced public repo, every codebase rebases to goon as much as possible.

Not a single codebase has even come close to "rebasing" to goon.

I remember back in...was it '16 or '17? Goon had a leak followed by a public release. /tg/ opened up an extra server to run gooncode while they adapted their code to run on modern goon. Then when it was done, the goonbase server disappeared. I'm honestly surprised it hasn't happened for the 2020 release yet.

also, way to dodge the main point of the post and zero in on the one thing that even has the potential to be inaccurate

[cacogen]

glad i could pass the baton to deedubya on this one

[wesoda25]

ITT: incoherent shadowflame posting while deedub talks authoritatively about something he has no concept of.

ah yes, another fine day on tg station forums

[oranges]

Also, you're delusional if you think /tg/ is the number one codebase. Objectively speaking, goon is the codebase model from which nearly all other codebases are derived from. They have standards and direction. There's a reason that every time they have a forced public repo, every codebase rebases to goon as much as possible.

Not a single codebase has even come close to "rebasing" to goon.

I remember back in...was it '16 or '17? Goon had a leak followed by a public release. /tg/ opened up an extra server to run gooncode while they adapted their code to run on modern goon. Then when it was done, the goonbase server disappeared. I'm honestly surprised it hasn't happened for the 2020 release yet.

also, way to dodge the main point of the post and zero in on the one thing that even has the potential to be inaccurate

the goon server was run by a bunch of people who took issue with the tg codebase and the people leading it, and failed, now you're really reaching.

[PKPenguin321]

Also, you're delusional if you think /tg/ is the number one codebase. Objectively speaking, goon is the codebase model from which nearly all other codebases are derived from. They have standards and direction. There's a reason that every time they have a forced public repo, every codebase rebases to goon as much as possible.

Not a single codebase has even come close to "rebasing" to goon.

I remember back in...was it '16 or '17? Goon had a leak followed by a public release. /tg/ opened up an extra server to run gooncode while they adapted their code to run on modern goon. Then when it was done, the goonbase server disappeared. I'm honestly surprised it hasn't happened for the 2020 release yet.

not even close
it was opened out of curiosity, had like 4 people playing it at any given time, ran slow as shit (probably not entirely the code's fault but still), and closed out of disinterest
code was occasionally looked at for spectacle, iirc the only attempt at a direct port was His Grace which fell through because the code was atrocious, and eventually it was remade from scratch

[oranges]

wasn't even curiosity, it was pure spite by some people who didn't like the way thing were run on the tg codebase.