/tg/Station 13

Water has gotten a little insane. After I nerfed the other slips (almost 2 years ago!) the metagame has slowly and invariably shifted to water spam for inflicting mass casualties.

I'm seeing:

1) Simple mobs using water tank smashing religiously. It's practically become a core part of simple mob balance. Any hostile simplemob who smashes a water tank in the central ring will rack up 6+ kills with ease.

2) No slip/hulk antags using water vape pens to slip nearly every hall area while killing anyone who doesn't succumb to the futility of permawalking while they exist.

3) Far too many fights, even between people with ranged weaponry, devolves into stupid shit like throwing water bottles and spraying chokepoints for easy low-effort stuns.

There's a lot of possible improvements though. From going in an piecemeal nerfing water sources like canisters/tanks/vape pens so they all dump significantly less water. To just cutting the stun to like 2-3 seconds, to removing the instant stun outright and just have the water give a +2s confusion effect that will result in slipping once you hit >6s of confusion, to making the water just dry up significantly faster.

I like how water can be a "great equalizer" but it's become a pretty clear negative in our gameplay. Personally I'd like to just see the stun reduced to maybe 3 seconds and make the slip have a higher chance of "throwing" whatever you're holding, so that you can punish people running around with weapons out but you don't get a free kill on anyone who slips on the most readily available liquid in the game.

Delete the first 3 posts and we might still have a hope for a productive discussion.

I've killed at least 10 people in the last week using slipspam, when I find myself consistently resorting to tactics that even have me going "eh this is pretty shitty, but hey it works", it's probably time for a fresh look without all the stupid shitposting like we've seen so far.

Oldman Robustin wrote:Delete the first 3 posts and we might still have a hope for a productive discussion.

I've killed at least 10 people in the last week using slipspam, when I find myself consistently resorting to tactics that even have me going "eh this is pretty shitty, but hey it works", it's probably time for a fresh look without all the stupid shitposting like we've seen so far.

Only ten, huh? You can easily get more than that with something like disarming a weapon and turning it on them. Seems like a non issue.

you're not complaining about water

you're complaining about stuns

Oh yes genius stun overhauler from upon the mount with your graven tablets tell us how complete removal of the stun system from the game leaving water doing ???? and overhauling everything is the simpler solution to the station being turned into a water park.

I actually agree with Robustin on this, it would be better if water just caused a short slip but caused whatever was in your hand to go flying away like it does sometimes, that way it is still a valid tactic against people as it can be used to disarm, but it isnt a gg-no-re stun.

If you want taser level stuns from slipping, get a banana peel or a soap bar.

feem wrote:you're not complaining about water

you're complaining about stuns

>Game has 100 ways to stun someone

>Have an issue with one of them

>SO UR BITCHEN BOUT STUNS EH?

I'll wait a couple more days for coherent feedback but if the only opposition I hear is the same shit I heard in 2016 salt/ided/gitgud, then all it tells me is I'm on the right track for another good change.

I am rather conflicted about this as on the one hand slipping is stupidly powerful, but on the other hand removing it really destroys someone's ability to win a fight without dedicated weaponry.

While others shouldn't change, the vape thing can use a nerf for water.

I totally agree with this in regards to water. I also abuse it pretty often, and everything I abuse tends to get nerfed too.

My change suggestion would be keep the stun, but keep it below handcuffiing time and throw whatever you're holding.

I would say this shouldn't affect stuff like the clown's pda and banana, and soaps as well, since they have less accessibility and are more obvious than water.

water is just a symptom of the larger issue at hand but i think most people who aren't assholes would find a nerf to water's slip time reasonable

Oldman Robustin wrote:Water has gotten a little insane. After I nerfed the other slips (almost 2 years ago!) the metagame has slowly and invariably shifted to water spam for inflicting mass casualties.

If only someone were there to tell you 2 years ago that inevitably slips will remain the meta for killing people up until something better comes along.

It was me, I told you this.

If you know some bumblefuck is spamming water for kills, go loot the CE for their noslip noslowdown magboots or cut off gravity to disable all the water stuns and kill they ass. Adapt, overcome, KILL.

Combat balance discussions are barely possible on the forums because so few of the robust playerbase join the discussion.

Oldman Robustin wrote:Water has gotten a little insane.

It might not help this discussion much, but I think it's funny how we're arguing about whether or not water is too strong.

What if we did some minor nerf like -1 stun duration and let water dry faster (twice as fast or so)?

ShadowDimentio wrote:

Oldman Robustin wrote:Water has gotten a little insane. After I nerfed the other slips (almost 2 years ago!) the metagame has slowly and invariably shifted to water spam for inflicting mass casualties.

If only someone were there to tell you 2 years ago that inevitably slips will remain the meta for killing people up until something better comes along.

It was me, I told you this.

If you know some bumblefuck is spamming water for kills, go loot the CE for their noslip noslowdown magboots or cut off gravity to disable all the water stuns and kill they ass. Adapt, overcome, KILL.

Having to cripple your own stations gravity/movement is not really a reasonable solution in team modes

Marauders and blood cult constructs cost basically nothing

lets just solve the issue by slowing global movespeed so people don't book it down the hallways like usain bolt and then eat shit because they have 5 frames to react to water due to how fast they sprint

I do think water tends to last a pretty longass time. When some yuck opens the vapor tank it stays for fucking ever, situations like this are why I always keep a crowbar in my backpack to just take up the tiles

What if

simple mobs could slip

I always knew this was going to happen

Kor wrote:Having to cripple your own stations gravity/movement is not really a reasonable solution in team modes

Marauders and blood cult constructs cost basically nothing

Sure it is. Nograv movement is a minor annoyance at worst when compared to being dunked by some dick with a water/lube vape.

Deitus wrote:I do think water tends to last a pretty longass time. When some yuck opens the vapor tank it stays for fucking ever, situations like this are why I always keep a crowbar in my backpack to just take up the tiles

thats a feature of water vapor actually, if there is vapor in the air water tiles wont dry without being removed.

ITT people who cant gitgud

ITT people who just leave run intent on because not moving at max speed at all times is not robust enough

When the station is wet
A quick death you'll get
If you wanna avoid a slip
Slow your roll and get a grip
Your bulbous skull wont take a dent
If you learn to use the walking intent

cedarbridge wrote:ITT people who just leave run intent on because not moving at max speed at all times is not robust enough

This but unironically.

A marauder is smashing up the engine/science/medbay and crippling the station. It's moving at normal speed. It's smashed a water tank so there is a giant AoE deathtrap in the zone its ruining. If you run you fall over and it kills you, if you walk it easily ignores you while it smashes everything (or if you're alone, kills you).

[youtube]GceNsojnMf0[/youtube]

I say leave the stun time alone and double the drying speed of water.

And make water *more* visible the more there is on a tile.

Hell, why not just balance water stun by how much is on the tile so a thrown water bottle barely makes you trip and get back up but if a watertank explodes next to you you go aquaplaning into a wall.

I'm not sure doing stun based on quantity of water is feasible, especially since the most abused sources of water would presumably dump "a lot" of water out.

Faster evaporation is definitely a solution but im worried it wouldn't address the problem of combat water like vape pens, water bottles, sprayers, etc.

When I nerfed a lot of the other slips I avoided water honestly just because I didn't want that much slip controversy in a single PR.

Walking is a solution to not getting killed but its not a solution to the problem. The moment sec is forced to perma-walk around the main hallways then (whichever antag is abusing mass-slips) is basically free from any combat risk. For simple mobs stuff like lasers isn't even a real threat on its own, its the risk that the dude chasing you with lasers manages to corner you and chunk your HP when you try to switch directions. When everyone trying to kill you is on walk, its just an all-you-can-kill buffet for simple mobs.

I'm leaning toward the shorter stun + weapon throw option because it strikes a compromise. It gives sec a reasonable counter (keeping weapons stowed when youre chasing and dont have a clear shot) without it being a 1-hit GG like it is now. The vape pen might needs its own independent nerf simply because having your own personal smoke machine at roundstart is silly.

Kor wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:ITT people who just leave run intent on because not moving at max speed at all times is not robust enough

This but unironically.

A marauder is smashing up the engine/science/medbay and crippling the station. It's moving at normal speed. It's smashed a water tank so there is a giant AoE deathtrap in the zone its ruining. If you run you fall over and it kills you, if you walk it easily ignores you while it smashes everything (or if you're alone, kills you).

by walking you are making yourself a target anyway, as simplemobs are immune to slips and walk speed is slower than simplemob move speed.

you are dead either way, it is why that tactic is abused to fuck and back.

this just really seems like it's exaggerating. yeah slips are robust and water is a convenient and easy to acquire slip but what's so inherently wrong about that? when i rampage as a traitor i'll stick to a gun or stunstick over a waterbottle, water slips are low level shit that imo are fairly easy to dodge especially if you're expecting them.

i'm also an advocate for buffing tabling though so maybe i'm just too good for all of you nerds

Its pretty standard for simplemobs to do this. It should not be standard for simplemobs to do this. Also reducing slip times would make people hate the janitor less.

EagleWiz wrote:Also reducing slip times would make people hate the janitor less.

This is not an improvement.

Goon has litteraly a second stun for slipping on water not forgetting they also have a feature for slipping on blood

If you require water soap or clowns pda just get robust lmfao just nerf water stun to 1 second and soap/clown pda like 4-5

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/34868

The madman actually did it.

Keep in mind I was pretty fine with the state of water for years. Even though I'm pushing for this change I'm a little worried that the meta will get a little too focused on guns afterward. Slips were the great equalizer. If revs start to choke without 1-hit-GGnoRE slips then maybe we could make stunprods fit in bags again (why did we make them huge again?).

stunprods fit on armor so just crack open a sec locker or be the bartender

SpaceInaba wrote:stunprods fit on armor so just crack open a sec locker or be the bartender

Yea but if you can crack open a locker you can access the -better in every way imaginable- stun baton.

Still, I think revs have been doing pretty well so might as well wait and see how this plays out (assuming it gets merged).

Oldman Robustin wrote:

SpaceInaba wrote:stunprods fit on armor so just crack open a sec locker or be the bartender

Yea but if you can crack open a locker you can access the -better in every way imaginable- stun baton.

I don't think there's secbelts in the arrivals locker feel free to correct me though

or just take the sec wintercoat out of the locker that hasnt a lock at all...

1.make slip to be matter of chance.Like prob(100*(1-exp(-k*vol))), where k is some coefficient,vol-volume of water on tile.
2.Make water no slip, if you are near wall.
3.Make water overlay to have alpha coefficient 90*(1-exp(-k*vol))

Did cyberboss ever do that slip pr alternative?