Water
- Oldman Robustin
- Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
- Byond Username: ForcefulCJS
Water
Water has gotten a little insane. After I nerfed the other slips (almost 2 years ago!) the metagame has slowly and invariably shifted to water spam for inflicting mass casualties.
I'm seeing:
1) Simple mobs using water tank smashing religiously. It's practically become a core part of simple mob balance. Any hostile simplemob who smashes a water tank in the central ring will rack up 6+ kills with ease.
2) No slip/hulk antags using water vape pens to slip nearly every hall area while killing anyone who doesn't succumb to the futility of permawalking while they exist.
3) Far too many fights, even between people with ranged weaponry, devolves into stupid shit like throwing water bottles and spraying chokepoints for easy low-effort stuns.
There's a lot of possible improvements though. From going in an piecemeal nerfing water sources like canisters/tanks/vape pens so they all dump significantly less water. To just cutting the stun to like 2-3 seconds, to removing the instant stun outright and just have the water give a +2s confusion effect that will result in slipping once you hit >6s of confusion, to making the water just dry up significantly faster.
I like how water can be a "great equalizer" but it's become a pretty clear negative in our gameplay. Personally I'd like to just see the stun reduced to maybe 3 seconds and make the slip have a higher chance of "throwing" whatever you're holding, so that you can punish people running around with weapons out but you don't get a free kill on anyone who slips on the most readily available liquid in the game.
I'm seeing:
1) Simple mobs using water tank smashing religiously. It's practically become a core part of simple mob balance. Any hostile simplemob who smashes a water tank in the central ring will rack up 6+ kills with ease.
2) No slip/hulk antags using water vape pens to slip nearly every hall area while killing anyone who doesn't succumb to the futility of permawalking while they exist.
3) Far too many fights, even between people with ranged weaponry, devolves into stupid shit like throwing water bottles and spraying chokepoints for easy low-effort stuns.
There's a lot of possible improvements though. From going in an piecemeal nerfing water sources like canisters/tanks/vape pens so they all dump significantly less water. To just cutting the stun to like 2-3 seconds, to removing the instant stun outright and just have the water give a +2s confusion effect that will result in slipping once you hit >6s of confusion, to making the water just dry up significantly faster.
I like how water can be a "great equalizer" but it's become a pretty clear negative in our gameplay. Personally I'd like to just see the stun reduced to maybe 3 seconds and make the slip have a higher chance of "throwing" whatever you're holding, so that you can punish people running around with weapons out but you don't get a free kill on anyone who slips on the most readily available liquid in the game.
- Oldman Robustin
- Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
- Byond Username: ForcefulCJS
Re: Water
Delete the first 3 posts and we might still have a hope for a productive discussion.
I've killed at least 10 people in the last week using slipspam, when I find myself consistently resorting to tactics that even have me going "eh this is pretty shitty, but hey it works", it's probably time for a fresh look without all the stupid shitposting like we've seen so far.
I've killed at least 10 people in the last week using slipspam, when I find myself consistently resorting to tactics that even have me going "eh this is pretty shitty, but hey it works", it's probably time for a fresh look without all the stupid shitposting like we've seen so far.
- PKPenguin321
- Site Admin
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Re: Water
Only ten, huh? You can easily get more than that with something like disarming a weapon and turning it on them. Seems like a non issue.Oldman Robustin wrote:Delete the first 3 posts and we might still have a hope for a productive discussion.
I've killed at least 10 people in the last week using slipspam, when I find myself consistently resorting to tactics that even have me going "eh this is pretty shitty, but hey it works", it's probably time for a fresh look without all the stupid shitposting like we've seen so far.
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
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- Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 3:01 am
- Byond Username: Incomptinence
Re: Water
Oh yes genius stun overhauler from upon the mount with your graven tablets tell us how complete removal of the stun system from the game leaving water doing ???? and overhauling everything is the simpler solution to the station being turned into a water park.
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- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:31 pm
- Byond Username: DrBee
Re: Water
I actually agree with Robustin on this, it would be better if water just caused a short slip but caused whatever was in your hand to go flying away like it does sometimes, that way it is still a valid tactic against people as it can be used to disarm, but it isnt a gg-no-re stun.
If you want taser level stuns from slipping, get a banana peel or a soap bar.
If you want taser level stuns from slipping, get a banana peel or a soap bar.
- Oldman Robustin
- Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
- Byond Username: ForcefulCJS
Re: Water
>Game has 100 ways to stun someonefeem wrote:you're not complaining about water
you're complaining about stuns
>Have an issue with one of them
>SO UR BITCHEN BOUT STUNS EH?
I'll wait a couple more days for coherent feedback but if the only opposition I hear is the same shit I heard in 2016 salt/ided/gitgud, then all it tells me is I'm on the right track for another good change.
- CPTANT
- Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
- Byond Username: CPTANT
Re: Water
I am rather conflicted about this as on the one hand slipping is stupidly powerful, but on the other hand removing it really destroys someone's ability to win a fight without dedicated weaponry.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
- Dax Dupont
- In-Game Admin
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Re: Water
While others shouldn't change, the vape thing can use a nerf for water.
- Stickymayhem
- Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:13 pm
- Byond Username: Stickymayhem
Re: Water
I totally agree with this in regards to water. I also abuse it pretty often, and everything I abuse tends to get nerfed too.
My change suggestion would be keep the stun, but keep it below handcuffiing time and throw whatever you're holding.
I would say this shouldn't affect stuff like the clown's pda and banana, and soaps as well, since they have less accessibility and are more obvious than water.
My change suggestion would be keep the stun, but keep it below handcuffiing time and throw whatever you're holding.
I would say this shouldn't affect stuff like the clown's pda and banana, and soaps as well, since they have less accessibility and are more obvious than water.
Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
- Qbopper
- Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:34 pm
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- Location: Canada
Re: Water
water is just a symptom of the larger issue at hand but i think most people who aren't assholes would find a nerf to water's slip time reasonable
Limey wrote:its too late.
- ShadowDimentio
- Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 3:15 am
- Byond Username: David273
Re: Water
If only someone were there to tell you 2 years ago that inevitably slips will remain the meta for killing people up until something better comes along.Oldman Robustin wrote:Water has gotten a little insane. After I nerfed the other slips (almost 2 years ago!) the metagame has slowly and invariably shifted to water spam for inflicting mass casualties.
It was me, I told you this.
If you know some bumblefuck is spamming water for kills, go loot the CE for their noslip noslowdown magboots or cut off gravity to disable all the water stuns and kill they ass. Adapt, overcome, KILL.
Spoiler:
- Stickymayhem
- Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:13 pm
- Byond Username: Stickymayhem
Re: Water
Combat balance discussions are barely possible on the forums because so few of the robust playerbase join the discussion.
Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
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- Github User
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- Github Username: Slignerd
Re: Water
It might not help this discussion much, but I think it's funny how we're arguing about whether or not water is too strong.Oldman Robustin wrote:Water has gotten a little insane.
It would appear that I'm a high RP weeb who hates roleplay and anime.
- CPTANT
- Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
- Byond Username: CPTANT
Re: Water
What if we did some minor nerf like -1 stun duration and let water dry faster (twice as fast or so)?
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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- Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:26 pm
- Byond Username: KorPhaeron
Re: Water
Having to cripple your own stations gravity/movement is not really a reasonable solution in team modesShadowDimentio wrote:If only someone were there to tell you 2 years ago that inevitably slips will remain the meta for killing people up until something better comes along.Oldman Robustin wrote:Water has gotten a little insane. After I nerfed the other slips (almost 2 years ago!) the metagame has slowly and invariably shifted to water spam for inflicting mass casualties.
It was me, I told you this.
If you know some bumblefuck is spamming water for kills, go loot the CE for their noslip noslowdown magboots or cut off gravity to disable all the water stuns and kill they ass. Adapt, overcome, KILL.
Marauders and blood cult constructs cost basically nothing
- SpaceInaba
- Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:03 pm
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- Location: everyone's favorite sjw
Re: Water
lets just solve the issue by slowing global movespeed so people don't book it down the hallways like usain bolt and then eat shit because they have 5 frames to react to water due to how fast they sprint 

Spoiler:
- ShadowDimentio
- Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 3:15 am
- Byond Username: David273
Re: Water
Sure it is. Nograv movement is a minor annoyance at worst when compared to being dunked by some dick with a water/lube vape.Kor wrote:Having to cripple your own stations gravity/movement is not really a reasonable solution in team modes
Marauders and blood cult constructs cost basically nothing
Spoiler:
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- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:31 pm
- Byond Username: DrBee
Re: Water
thats a feature of water vapor actually, if there is vapor in the air water tiles wont dry without being removed.Deitus wrote:I do think water tends to last a pretty longass time. When some yuck opens the vapor tank it stays for fucking ever, situations like this are why I always keep a crowbar in my backpack to just take up the tiles
- calzilla1
- Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:55 pm
- Byond Username: Calzilla1
Re: Water
ITT people who cant gitgud
Life is too short for anything meaningful and too long for anything memeingful
Super Aggro Crag wrote: The best shitpost youll ever be responsible for will be your obituary.
Quality debate brought to you by ColonicAcid wrote:imagine having this little empathy
do you have autism bud? does your brain not see these people as humans? are they just a faceless statistic to you?
- cedarbridge
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
- Byond Username: Cedarbridge
Re: Water
ITT people who just leave run intent on because not moving at max speed at all times is not robust enough
- Super Aggro Crag
- In Game PermaBanned
- Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:47 pm
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Re: Water
When the station is wet
A quick death you'll get
If you wanna avoid a slip
Slow your roll and get a grip
Your bulbous skull wont take a dent
If you learn to use the walking intent
A quick death you'll get
If you wanna avoid a slip
Slow your roll and get a grip
Your bulbous skull wont take a dent
If you learn to use the walking intent
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- Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:26 pm
- Byond Username: KorPhaeron
Re: Water
This but unironically.cedarbridge wrote:ITT people who just leave run intent on because not moving at max speed at all times is not robust enough
A marauder is smashing up the engine/science/medbay and crippling the station. It's moving at normal speed. It's smashed a water tank so there is a giant AoE deathtrap in the zone its ruining. If you run you fall over and it kills you, if you walk it easily ignores you while it smashes everything (or if you're alone, kills you).
- captain sawrge
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- Not-Dorsidarf
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:14 pm
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- Location: We're all going on an, admin holiday
Re: Water
I say leave the stun time alone and double the drying speed of water.
And make water *more* visible the more there is on a tile.
Hell, why not just balance water stun by how much is on the tile so a thrown water bottle barely makes you trip and get back up but if a watertank explodes next to you you go aquaplaning into a wall.
And make water *more* visible the more there is on a tile.
Hell, why not just balance water stun by how much is on the tile so a thrown water bottle barely makes you trip and get back up but if a watertank explodes next to you you go aquaplaning into a wall.


kieth4 wrote: infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please.![]()
- Oldman Robustin
- Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
- Byond Username: ForcefulCJS
Re: Water
I'm not sure doing stun based on quantity of water is feasible, especially since the most abused sources of water would presumably dump "a lot" of water out.
Faster evaporation is definitely a solution but im worried it wouldn't address the problem of combat water like vape pens, water bottles, sprayers, etc.
When I nerfed a lot of the other slips I avoided water honestly just because I didn't want that much slip controversy in a single PR.
Walking is a solution to not getting killed but its not a solution to the problem. The moment sec is forced to perma-walk around the main hallways then (whichever antag is abusing mass-slips) is basically free from any combat risk. For simple mobs stuff like lasers isn't even a real threat on its own, its the risk that the dude chasing you with lasers manages to corner you and chunk your HP when you try to switch directions. When everyone trying to kill you is on walk, its just an all-you-can-kill buffet for simple mobs.
I'm leaning toward the shorter stun + weapon throw option because it strikes a compromise. It gives sec a reasonable counter (keeping weapons stowed when youre chasing and dont have a clear shot) without it being a 1-hit GG like it is now. The vape pen might needs its own independent nerf simply because having your own personal smoke machine at roundstart is silly.
Faster evaporation is definitely a solution but im worried it wouldn't address the problem of combat water like vape pens, water bottles, sprayers, etc.
When I nerfed a lot of the other slips I avoided water honestly just because I didn't want that much slip controversy in a single PR.
Walking is a solution to not getting killed but its not a solution to the problem. The moment sec is forced to perma-walk around the main hallways then (whichever antag is abusing mass-slips) is basically free from any combat risk. For simple mobs stuff like lasers isn't even a real threat on its own, its the risk that the dude chasing you with lasers manages to corner you and chunk your HP when you try to switch directions. When everyone trying to kill you is on walk, its just an all-you-can-kill buffet for simple mobs.
I'm leaning toward the shorter stun + weapon throw option because it strikes a compromise. It gives sec a reasonable counter (keeping weapons stowed when youre chasing and dont have a clear shot) without it being a 1-hit GG like it is now. The vape pen might needs its own independent nerf simply because having your own personal smoke machine at roundstart is silly.
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- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:31 pm
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Re: Water
by walking you are making yourself a target anyway, as simplemobs are immune to slips and walk speed is slower than simplemob move speed.Kor wrote:This but unironically.cedarbridge wrote:ITT people who just leave run intent on because not moving at max speed at all times is not robust enough
A marauder is smashing up the engine/science/medbay and crippling the station. It's moving at normal speed. It's smashed a water tank so there is a giant AoE deathtrap in the zone its ruining. If you run you fall over and it kills you, if you walk it easily ignores you while it smashes everything (or if you're alone, kills you).
you are dead either way, it is why that tactic is abused to fuck and back.
- PKPenguin321
- Site Admin
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Re: Water
this just really seems like it's exaggerating. yeah slips are robust and water is a convenient and easy to acquire slip but what's so inherently wrong about that? when i rampage as a traitor i'll stick to a gun or stunstick over a waterbottle, water slips are low level shit that imo are fairly easy to dodge especially if you're expecting them.
i'm also an advocate for buffing tabling though so maybe i'm just too good for all of you nerds
i'm also an advocate for buffing tabling though so maybe i'm just too good for all of you nerds
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
Spoiler:
- ShadowDimentio
- Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 3:15 am
- Byond Username: David273
Re: Water
This is not an improvement.EagleWiz wrote:Also reducing slip times would make people hate the janitor less.
Spoiler:
- Ezel
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:48 pm
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Re: Water
Goon has litteraly a second stun for slipping on water not forgetting they also have a feature for slipping on blood
If you require water soap or clowns pda just get robust lmfao just nerf water stun to 1 second and soap/clown pda like 4-5
If you require water soap or clowns pda just get robust lmfao just nerf water stun to 1 second and soap/clown pda like 4-5
The future is horrible!
- Oldman Robustin
- Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
- Byond Username: ForcefulCJS
Re: Water
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/34868
The madman actually did it.
Keep in mind I was pretty fine with the state of water for years. Even though I'm pushing for this change I'm a little worried that the meta will get a little too focused on guns afterward. Slips were the great equalizer. If revs start to choke without 1-hit-GGnoRE slips then maybe we could make stunprods fit in bags again (why did we make them huge again?).
The madman actually did it.
Keep in mind I was pretty fine with the state of water for years. Even though I'm pushing for this change I'm a little worried that the meta will get a little too focused on guns afterward. Slips were the great equalizer. If revs start to choke without 1-hit-GGnoRE slips then maybe we could make stunprods fit in bags again (why did we make them huge again?).
- SpaceInaba
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- Oldman Robustin
- Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
- Byond Username: ForcefulCJS
Re: Water
Yea but if you can crack open a locker you can access the -better in every way imaginable- stun baton.SpaceInaba wrote:stunprods fit on armor so just crack open a sec locker or be the bartender
Still, I think revs have been doing pretty well so might as well wait and see how this plays out (assuming it gets merged).
Last edited by Oldman Robustin on Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- SpaceInaba
- Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:03 pm
- Byond Username: SpaceInaba
- Location: everyone's favorite sjw
Re: Water
I don't think there's secbelts in the arrivals locker feel free to correct me thoughOldman Robustin wrote:Yea but if you can crack open a locker you can access the -better in every way imaginable- stun baton.SpaceInaba wrote:stunprods fit on armor so just crack open a sec locker or be the bartender
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- Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:11 am
- Byond Username: Serpentarium
Re: Water
1.make slip to be matter of chance.Like prob(100*(1-exp(-k*vol))), where k is some coefficient,vol-volume of water on tile.
2.Make water no slip, if you are near wall.
3.Make water overlay to have alpha coefficient 90*(1-exp(-k*vol))
2.Make water no slip, if you are near wall.
3.Make water overlay to have alpha coefficient 90*(1-exp(-k*vol))
- Shadowflame909
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