[cedarbridge] akulainthepoola - 1440 minte ban

[akulaindapoola]

Byond account and character name: AkulaInThePoola / Smoke Palmer
Banning admin: cedarbridge
Ban type (What are you banned from?): server
Ban reason and length: "gibbed chef for attacking him after he broke into the kitchen. decided to keep doing this while talking in an admin pm" 1440 minutes
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 12:10 AM CST
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Sybil
Your side of the story: I think this falls under "rule 1:7 " You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere. If someone is severely disruptive and returns after ejected, this opens them up to "fun" of the creative workplace death variety ". I didn't damage the kitchen ( I climbed over the counter and got a tray out of the vendor), yet the chef beat me to crit without even telling me to get out. When it comes to me gibbing the chef, I gibbed the old version of the chef, but he had been cloned and his clone body was still intact.
Why you think you should be unbanned: I see no reason why I should be banned because the chef escalated this without any justification, and I was only getting retribution for him critting me.

[cedarbridge]

You invaded the chef's workplace with your own admitted intent to steal items from said workplace. When he found you in his workplace the chef attacked you. This does not then authorize you to turn around and attack/kill/gib the chef. Your history of notes shows that you clearly don't understand how escalation works.

As to your "it wasn't the real chef." I jumped to the place where the person (the chef) was when they ahelped. It jumped to the body in the body bag you dragged into the back room and gibbed. You gibbed him while talking to me in the same ahelp convo. I'm not entirely sure why you thought this was a good idea to do while talking to me but apparently you felt it was too important to stop doing to talk to me.

[akulaindapoola]

> You invaded the chef's workplace with your own admitted intent to steal items from said workplace

I asked the chef for the tray, but he was not moving and said nothing. I figured he was afk, so I took it upon myself to get the highly valued tray.

> Your history of notes shows that you clearly don't understand how escalation works.

How did I escalate things when the chef first jumped to murdering me for getting a tray out of the vendor? I didn't damage the kitchen or the chef himself, so I don't see how I am the one who escalated it.

> As to your "it wasn't the real chef." I jumped to the place where the person (the chef) was when they ahelped. It jumped to the body in the body bag you dragged into the back room and gibbed.

There were two bodies in the body bad, the clothed one was the original, the naked one was the clone.

> I'm not entirely sure why you thought this was a good idea to do while talking to me but apparently you felt it was too important to stop doing to talk to me.

I thought it was inconsequentialsince it was a body that wouldn't have been able to be cloned anyway, since the chef swapped consciousness with the clone body.

[cedarbridge]

In a nutshell

>invited yourself into his kitchen
>got beat to hell for it
>decided that wasn't good enough and went back for round two, killed him and dragged him to the gibber

No part of this is what you should have done. That is why you copped a ban here.

[akulaindapoola]

I mean.... Did you see the rule I listed? The chef should have thrown me out instead of beating me to near death. He wasn't planning on taking me to medbay either, he was going to flush me down the trash chute, so there was no guarantee I would have been revived.

[bandit]

The thing is, gibbing (or cremation, decapitation, hiding the body, etc.) is pretty much the nuclear option in terms of taking people out of the round, and the gamble that they might be cloning (which isn't a guarantee, there are many reasons someone can fail to get cloned) doesn't mean you can do it with flimsy justification. "I wanted to steal a tray and the chef wouldn't let me" is flimsy justification.

[cedarbridge]

I mean.... Did you see the rule I listed? The chef should have thrown me out instead of beating me to near death. He wasn't planning on taking me to medbay either, he was going to flush me down the trash chute, so there was no guarantee I would have been revived.

You're lawyering the entirely wrong part of that rule.

1.7 authorizes significantly greater force used against you than would be allowed outside of their department. This force is allowed as a means to discourage people from doing what you did and inviting themselves into departments to stickyfingers stuff. The rule does not require that you do a certain prerequisite amount of damage or exchange a defined number of words before doing so. You were the invader, you initiated this exchange, you took it to the gibber.

[onleavedontatme]

We should honestly remove the word "escalation" from our rules since what it means in relation the way we enforce our rules (the defender may reasonably retaliate against the instigator who must then de-escalate) and what it means in the real world (tit for tat getting worse between both sides) are only tenuously related.

[onleavedontatme]

To be clear this ban is entirely consistent with the current enforcement of the rules and you probably wont have much luck appealing it but all the leftover references to escalation in our rules that are used as slang for describing non antags fighting is needlessly confusing

[onleavedontatme]

It is pretty ironic though that if OP had just succumbed and adminhelped the chef would probably have gotten banned for having such a psycho response but responding to that disproportionate force IC got him banned instead

[Cobby]

give me wiki ability to edit the rules :^)

Also

When it comes to me gibbing the chef, I gibbed the old version of the chef, but he had been cloned and his clone body was still intact.

[imblyings]

Chef critting the intruder would be fine so long as they toss them outside. They don't start with stun cuff gear are likely not robust enough to use disarm and table stuns. Even if they crit and didn't toss the body into a public area, if they aren't a known shitter it's not hard to just revive the intruder and tell both parties to not interact.

The more relevant thing here was determining if the gibbed body was the new one or not, although it seems strange to break in just to give the old body of someone.

[akulaindapoola]

It was easy to tell because I had gotten the chef after he was cloned, so he was still stripping the original body's clothing. The clone was naked and the og was not.

[akulaindapoola]

The thing is, gibbing (or cremation, decapitation, hiding the body, etc.) is pretty much the nuclear option in terms of taking people out of the round, and the gamble that they might be cloning (which isn't a guarantee, there are many reasons someone can fail to get cloned) doesn't mean you can do it with flimsy justification. "I wanted to steal a tray and the chef wouldn't let me" is flimsy justification.

I am not justifying killing the chef because they prevented me from getting the tray. I am justifying it by the fact the chef critted me after I hadn't even attacked or destroyed his kitchen.

[bandit]

I am not justifying killing the chef because they prevented me from getting the tray. I am justifying it by the fact the chef critted me after I hadn't even attacked or destroyed his kitchen.

You're missing the operative word, which is "gibbing." Going from being critted (which does not irrevocably remove someone from the round) to gibbing (which does) in and of itself is something of a dick move. Doing so to a person whose workspace you are invading for very little reason and who otherwise wasn't bothering or provoking you beforehand is what makes it bannable.

[akulaindapoola]

Again, I didn't gib the body that could be cloned. I gibbed the old chef, which means his clone body could have been cloned still. If the admin hadn't jumped to banning me I could have explained this.

[onleavedontatme]

[04:31:46]ATTACK: Punch Nuts(hoffkristoff) stuffed Smoke Palmer(akulainthepoola) with into the disposal unit (NEWHP: -2.33334) (133,122,2)

The chef did try and hide his body. People in this thread keep stressing "only critted" but he apparently made an effort to hide him at some point.

The Chef stripping his own corpse (presumably in genetics)

[04:59:03]ATTACK: Unknown(hoffkristoff) stripped Punch Nuts with of the chef's apron (NEWHP: -121) (94,92,2)
[04:59:04]ATTACK: Unknown(hoffkristoff) stripped Punch Nuts with of the cook's suit (NEWHP: -121) (94,92,2)



Smoke stealing the corpse (note it has no ckey)
[04:59:51]ATTACK: Smoke Palmer(akulainthepoola) grabbed Punch Nuts with passive grab (NEWHP: -121) (94,92,2)

[04:59:38]ATTACK: Smoke Palmer(akulainthepoola) attacked Unknown(hoffkristoff) with kitchen knife(INTENT: DISARM) (NEWHP: -75) (92,92,2)

Smoke fighting the newly cloned Chef over the body (and he does crit/kill him at this point)


Gibbing the corpse (no ckey again)

[05:00:58]ATTACK: Smoke Palmer(akulainthepoola) gibbed Punch Nuts with (NEWHP: -131) (141,121,2)

And the body he gibbed had no ckey

The chef was recloned, and I assume was watching his old body be gibbed when he ahelped since you can ghost while cloning now


Also the ahelp logs

[04:53:06]ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #2: Hoffkristoff/(Punch Nuts): This faggot Smoke considers stealing a Desword and murdering me is justice for me beating his ass for strealing my id - heard by 1 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
[05:00:23]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Cedarbridge/(Dreams-of-Trees)->AkulaInThePoola/(Smoke Palmer): So, what's going on here exactrly/
[05:00:43]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: AkulaInThePoola/(Smoke Palmer)->Cedarbridge/(Dreams-of-Trees): this chef tried to kill me just because I stepped into his kitchen, I am getting my revenge
[05:00:59]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Cedarbridge/(Dreams-of-Trees)->AkulaInThePoola/(Smoke Palmer): You broke into his kitchen and now you're trying to gib him?
[05:01:06]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Cedarbridge/(Dreams-of-Trees)->AkulaInThePoola/(Smoke Palmer): Is that what you're doing?
[05:01:23]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: AkulaInThePoola/(Smoke Palmer)->Cedarbridge/(Dreams-of-Trees): I just climbed over the counter, and he isn't allowed to murder me if I do so. I was asking for a tray and he was afk
[05:01:47]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Cedarbridge/(Dreams-of-Trees)->AkulaInThePoola/(Smoke Palmer): So the answer was "Yes, I broke into his kitchen and now I'm gibbing him." See you tomorrow.
[05:01:58]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: AkulaInThePoola/(Smoke Palmer)->Cedarbridge/(Dreams-of-Trees): I didn't break anything though.
[05:02:24]ADMINPRIVATE: Cedarbridge/(Dreams-of-Trees) has banned akulainthepoola.

It looks like he tried to explain this (admittedly confusing) chain of events but you banned him in the middle of that.

I think I even missed some stuff because he references an ID theft and double esword murder. There was a full half hour of back and forth fighting and multiple trips to medbay for both of them before the adminhelp came in, he didn't just leap the counter and kill the guy

[akulaindapoola]

Thanks for looking more into it, I really appreciate it. To clarify the ID theft, this was because I thought he was afk since he wasn't moving or responding to my request. I only took it so I could get the tray and I gave it back peacefully while he was attacking me. The reason why he may have gone to medbay is because I threw a few IEDs near him, but he managed to run away without being seriously injured. The IEDs thing happened about 15 minutes after the start of this incident. When it comes to the double-esword, the virologist was trying to kill (i think) the clown and slipped on a banana peel while doing so. I grabbed the sword and sliced the traitor virologist up. This was shortly after the chef nearly killed me, so I figured I would keep the desword as a trophy and maybe use it against the chef (this was before I made the IEDs). I hope that clarifies anything you were still unsure about.

[onleavedontatme]

Your history of notes shows that you clearly don't understand how escalation works.

Also only vaguely related but I looked at his notes and saw

akulainthepoola
2017-07-27 09:18:30
gouty
Sybil
Warned - killed 3 greytiders that were looting the captains office at round start. No HoS or Captain. Greytiders were restrained but actively resisting. - ADDENDUM: Likes to harm baton, a lot, don't be so quick to jump to killing people, there is a reason you have stun and restriant tools


Which I'm pretty sure MSO explicitly has allowed security to do in an effort to deter people rushing the office so I'm going to edit that note to only have the harm baton warning

[onleavedontatme]

Also as a final note it was a borg who saved him from being flushed/killed.

[04:32:18]ATTACK: Box(jordb3) grabbed Smoke Palmer(akulainthepoola) with passive grab (NEWHP: -11.6667) (134,122,2

Given that the chef seems to have made an attempt to kill and hide his body, and he did actually gib a braindead clone, I'm going to lift this. If people still think he should be banned for killing the chef at all I guess that can be argued in this thread but in the mean time the ban reason doesn't match up to what actually happened

[cedarbridge]

As I mentioned previously, when I jumped to the chef from the initial ahelp, I found myself orbiting a body bag being dragged to the gibber. Unless the chef decided to jump to his own body to orbit it after apparently being cloned, it would be rather usual for the follow command to put me over a dead body without a ghost.

[onleavedontatme]

Is it possible he had two bodies in the bag and never got a chance to gib the 2nd one? The attack logs show at least two chefs and the body he gibbed didnt share a name with the one he was fighting (who was evidently Unknown from cloneloss)

Other than him trying to gib both or Hoff orbiting his own old corpse I'm not sure why it would have put you there. It unfortunately does not log at all when you move someone via a locker

[bandit]

ok, so while I try to process the nature of this new shit (I stand corrected? Maybe? I think?) I'll just say this for the benefit of future appeals: this is the kind of context akula or anyone else really should put in your OP. This is why admins ask for context. I'm a bit baffled actually as to why you didn't mention it before -- the OP version makes you look substantially worse than the logs.

it usually works the other way around

[onleavedontatme]

[05:00:58]ATTACK: Smoke Palmer(akulainthepoola) gibbed Punch Nuts with (NEWHP: -131) (141,121,2)

[05:01:30]ATTACK: Smoke Palmer(akulainthepoola) grabbed Unknown(hoffkristoff) with passive grab (NEWHP: -105) (142,120,2)

Alright it looks like he actually did have both and brought both to the kitchen and maybe you banned him before he could finish what he was doing which makes the "I only gibbed the old body" technically correct but still very misleading so I guess I'm wrong as well. I still think the chef wildly overescalated and opened himself up to retaliation for trying to hide his body in the beginning though.

[cedarbridge]

Yes, given the full context of how the chef reacted it is clear that he overstepped in attempting to hide the body in the first place. As with most of these cases, I think the whole series of events is fairly dumb.

[akulaindapoola]

I did mention that I only had gibbed the old chef at the beginning of the post, and I even said that I thought it was inconsequential because it was the old body. The admin that was handling his, cedarbridge, refused to acknowledge the fact that I had gibbed the old version despite what I was trying to tell them. Also, I was only going to gib the old body till the ahelp was resolved. If it is logged, then you would see that I walked away from the gibbed and was dragging the body bag away.

[onleavedontatme]

As with most of these cases, I think the whole series of events is fairly dumb.

Just another day on /tg/station

[Lazengann]

This is just peanut posting but that same chef jumps to murder at the drop of a hat, I played a few rounds with him yesterday

[Cobby]

is he unbanned or?

[akulaindapoola]

Yes