CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

[Dr_bee]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Honestly, this is all coming to mean "removing cloning necessitates remapping the entirety of Medbay".

Having played a round with a lot of casualties, yes. Medbay does not have any sort of flow, there is no place to store people waiting for treatment, treating people is done in a high as fuck traffic area because stasis beds are too good not to use.

Medbay needs a remap bad if doctors are expected to actually work instead of being glorified patch dispensers.

[BadSS13Player]

IMO now that players have more experience with non-cloning revival and there were PRs to improve it, the PR should be un-testmerge in order to test new Medbay with cloning.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Im gonna catch a lot of flack for this but i would be happy if cloning was brought back but with stiffer requirements like needing the broth to be stocked with chemicals and having the person doing the cloning having to sit there and babysit the tube and perform maintenance minigames to ensure the clone doesnt come out nonviable, fucked up, or as a ravenous hostile blob of angry tumors. The doctor still has to be "engaged" and i would NOT BE IN THE MIDDLE OF FUCKING MEDBAY DEALING WITH ALL THESE RETARDS SHOVING PAST ME FOR THE SOLE REASON OF MAKING MY DAY A LITTLE MORE IRRITATING.

Plus i like the cloning fitting with Nanotrasen being so callous with their employees lives and souls and i miss having lots of dead bodies that were cloned that you could harvest organa from, play with, and turn into burgies

[Sheodir]

Im gonna catch a lot of flack for this but i would be happy if cloning was brought back but with stiffer requirements like needing the broth to be stocked with chemicals and having the person doing the cloning having to sit there and babysit the tube and perform maintenance minigames to ensure the clone doesnt come out nonviable, fucked up, or as a ravenous hostile blob of angry tumors. The doctor still has to be "engaged" and i would NOT BE IN THE MIDDLE OF FUCKING MEDBAY DEALING WITH ALL THESE RETARDS SHOVING PAST ME FOR THE SOLE REASON OF MAKING MY DAY A LITTLE MORE IRRITATING.

Plus i like the cloning fitting with Nanotrasen being so callous with their employees lives and souls and i miss having lots of dead bodies that were cloned that you could harvest organa from, play with, and turn into burgies

I was watching WARS IN THE STARS THE SIXTH yesterday and I realized that coupled with what you said one thing would be a great incentive to make people use surgery over cloning, and it'd be aside from the genetic damage to start with a fair bit of organ damage. Not non-functional levels, but higher in the non essential parts - so you stumble out of cloning half-blind, with a stutter and a mighty headache.

I actually like the corporate angle to souls and bodies you mentioned - hell, I always pictured Lavaland mining as basically proof Nanotrasen will go extract energy from Hell if they have to, Doom 2016 style, but feel we are not out of the adaptational period to new Medbay yet.

[Timonk]

If you want it realistic go play bay or civ13

[Grazyn]

It's annoying to have people push you around while you're reviving someone but you can just use one of the surgery rooms or have medbay sec deal with trespassers. From what I've seen, the new reviving is faster than old cloning with the exception maybe of really old corpses (who are likely soulless anyway). I like that you can remove and replace non-functional organs in a single step instead of having to do multiple surgeries. Also I hate cobbychem because I don't understand it, so I only use tend wounds to heal people, this raises med skill and surgery speed thus making those long surgery steps like brain or heart fixing much more bearable.

[cacogen]

From what I've seen, the new reviving is faster than old cloning

lmao if true

Also I hate cobbychem because I don't understand it

me too. he could have written a guide

[Kryson]

I don't think medbay needs more buffs before we remove cloning except maybe a handheld surgical computer(A surgical app for the modular laptops would be cool.) to enable doctors to revive patients in "the field".

treating people is done in a high as fuck traffic area because stasis beds are too good not to use.

The solution is to remove stasis.

Ii would NOT BE IN THE MIDDLE OF FUCKING MEDBAY DEALING WITH ALL THESE RETARDS SHOVING PAST ME FOR THE SOLE REASON OF MAKING MY DAY A LITTLE MORE IRRITATING.

Use the surgery theatre, i do, you can use formaldehyde to prevent organ decay.

It is much more engaging to use an appropriate mixture of medicines to keep the patient alive while you fix their blood loss / poisoning / heart failure / romerol tumour than relying on the crutch that is the magic stasis machine that prevents you from ever losing a patient.

Maybe Medbay could have some form of "Spacing Treatment Kit" of some sort that starts with a couple patches amidst random burn treatment and epinephrine medipens. Not a lot, but just something to offset roundstart husks.

Maybe husking should be a real issue rather than the trivial annoyance it is now. It takes like 3 seconds at the chem dispenser to fix.

Treating husking right now is about as easy as it can get.

[Ziiro]

Small brain: hard removal
Big brain: removal after a lot of testing and adjustments
Galaxy brain: making a system so unrecognizable that players pretend it doesn't exist anymore

[Sheodir]

snippity snoppity this post was enormity

This is like the shadow opposite of the pro cloning complaints by people who don't play, anti cloning complaints by people who don't play

Stasis beds are used because they're needed, formaldehyde has a lot overdose threshold and tends to go by too fast by tics in its current form, and there are too little surgery theatres for the usual amount of wounded going around at any one time. Formaldehyde is currently more balanced for the journey to Medbay, stasis is harmless in its current form and husking requiring a somewhat irritating to make resource to heal is... honestly, it bothers me a bit, but it's better than nothing. If rebalanced I'd like it to be a surgery that has a step that uses synthflesh but I have no idea how code-worthy that'd be given chem amounts can be variable in a patch or pill.

But keeping it fixable by synthflesh is probably fine, since it only works after you heal the body significantly anyway. It's a sufficient delay.

[skoglol]

I agree with a stasis nerf, likely maling them part reliant. I have some ideas for how that would work.

[PKPenguin321]

I agree with a stasis nerf, likely maling them part reliant. I have some ideas for how that would work.

Would be cool if it slowed body functions instead of stopping them outright when you have no upgrades. How slow would be upgrade dependent with the full stop at max upgrade, and then you could toggle between speeds with alt-click.

[Armhulen]

I agree with a stasis nerf, likely maling them part reliant. I have some ideas for how that would work.

Would be cool if it slowed body functions instead of stopping them outright when you have no upgrades. How slow would be upgrade dependent with the full stop at max upgrade, and then you could toggle between speeds with alt-click.

emagging rapidly aging and really quickly running the body hell yes

[Kryson]

This is like the shadow opposite of the pro cloning complaints by people who don't play, anti cloning complaints by people who don't play

Stasis beds are used because they're needed, formaldehyde has a lot overdose threshold and tends to go by too fast by tics in its current form.

This is a very ironic post.

I am well aware how the formaldehyde corpse preservation mechanic works, because i was the one who added it.

formaldehyde has no overdose threshold.

formaldehyde is a toxin, which means 3u and below is pretty much harmless.

1u formaldehyde is enough to keep a corpse fresh forever since corpses do not process reagent. Something with an infinite duration cannot reasonably be considered to wear off too fast.

[Sheodir]

This is a very ironic post.

I am well aware how the formaldehyde corpse preservation mechanic works, because i was the one who added it.

formaldehyde has no overdose threshold.

formaldehyde is a toxin, which means 3u and below is pretty much harmless.

1u formaldehyde is enough to keep a corpse fresh forever since corpses do not process reagent. Something with an infinite duration cannot reasonably be considered to wear off too fast.

I consider basically husking the corpse the overdose. However, the fact the reagent never ticks down is new to me. I use the analyzer on corpses a little after bringing them to Medbay and the formaldehyde is usually missing from the chems list. Are you sure they're not processed or lost somehow? Are they phased out when the patient is revived?

[Cobby]

when they are alive they get processed like every other reagent, toxins specifically getting btfo'd by the liver at a threshold.

formaldehyde to my knowledge doesn't husk a corpse and it's a trash poison if you plan on using it as such.

[Sheodir]

when they are alive they get processed like every other reagent, toxins specifically getting btfo'd by the liver at a threshold.

formaldehyde to my knowledge doesn't husk a corpse and it's a trash poison if you plan on using it as such.

I've distinctly twice now saw formaldehyde husking someone when injected over a certain threshold, it was like two syringefuls or so

I'm not crazy

[skoglol]

I'm not crazy

You are crazy.

Formaldehyde and histamine does all the other damage types but burn, the only one able to husk you.

[Sheodir]

I'm not crazy

You are crazy.

Formaldehyde and histamine does all the other damage types but burn, the only one able to husk you.

I'm trying to think what happened but am not gonna derail the thread

DM me your theories no they weren't on fire or in space

[Taraiph]

I consider basically husking the corpse the overdose. However, the fact the reagent never ticks down is new to me. I use the analyzer on corpses a little after bringing them to Medbay and the formaldehyde is usually missing from the chems list. Are you sure they're not processed or lost somehow? Are they phased out when the patient is revived?

In a sense, yes. Very, very low toxin doses get obliterated by your liver effectively instantly. Since formaldehyde is a toxin that just so happens to be decent at keeping your organs from turning into even more of a worthless slurry than they already are a mere six seconds after you die, it leaves the body pretty quickly. Of course, if you aren't using a dropper to increment two units of formaldehyde into your patient then they will probably die of histamine poisoning mere seconds after revival.

At any rate, I've kinda given up on trying to explain my end to the brick wall. Just let me know when you're porting baymed so I can get in on the ground floor.

[NecromancerAnne]

I just wanna say, this has made saving plasmamen that much harder as any role in medical. If at the very least it's definitely made plasmamen that much more difficult to survive as on the station since there isn't actually even a last resort method to revive them sort of body transplants.

[Sheodir]

I just wanna say, this has made saving plasmamen that much harder as any role in medical. If at the very least it's definitely made plasmamen that much more difficult to survive as on the station since there isn't actually even a last resort method to revive them sort of body transplants.

The most common plasmeme revival still works

Shower, open em up, plop a heart and defib

[Super Aggro Crag]

I just wanna say, this has made saving plasmamen that much harder as any role in medical. If at the very least it's definitely made plasmamen that much more difficult to survive as on the station since there isn't actually even a last resort method to revive them sort of body transplants.

The revival surgery works if you dehusk them and repair their wounds on a stasis bed because they dont burst into treats on a stasis bed

[Tlaltecuhtli]

you just need to stick a heart in the plasmaman and defib

[Copybass]

Had a really fucked up round last night on Manuel where a muderboning lingtraitor killed me almost immediately into a round. I was a traitor myself, so I waited through being husked and recovered as my body was taken to medbay for repairs. They didn't dehusk me, and rather took my brain out to put into a new body. My brain however, didn't move my soul, so my soul remained in the husked body unable to be used, and they created a catatonic body with my brain in it, leaving me and another husked player to give up and find ghost roles.

Now I'm assuming this was a bug, but this took around 30 minutes of medbay running around, getting the monkey people, and they had no idea that the brain was buggy or otherwise, and I assume they simply thought I ghosted on them when they attempted the brain swap. It was absolutely pain for those of us in dchat, and it was absolutely pain for the medbay players who had to waste their time doing it, since it happened to at least two separate players in the round - meaning they were much less likely to attempt to save any other husks, assuming they would all be the same situation.

If this isn't a bug, and husking means brains are unusable for brain swaps, there REALLY needs to be some documentation immediately for all of this and for how to properly be a doctor in the new climate, not just on wiki but also in game for examinations (A la new deconstruction, etc) because far as I'm concerned I lost a traitor round to it. A week ago I'd have been tossed into cloning, had a short period of waiting for cloning and been able to get back to my objectives, since the crew would have had no idea I was possibly a traitor at that point.

[skoglol]

Changeling suck makes you not viable for revival, that part is intentional and was like that before cloning removal as well. You get ling succed? You're out, permanently.

Should probably just replace the brain organ with a dried out/shrunk one though to make it more clear to doctors as they extract it.

[Arathian]

Upgraded cloner could fix succ'd individuals I believe. Might have been at least tier 3 though.

Someone correct me if I am wrong. I am not 100% on it.

The equivalent in this new system would be a higher level chemical to fix the brain.

[skoglol]

You are wrong.

[Dr_bee]

Changeling suck makes you not viable for revival, that part is intentional and was like that before cloning removal as well. You get ling succed? You're out, permanently.

Should probably just replace the brain organ with a dried out/shrunk one though to make it more clear to doctors as they extract it.

There actually is a way around it using the alien tech necrotic revival surgery. you zombie revive them then rip the zombie tumor out of their brains. It makes them walking husks but is overall so rare to be able to do and actually pretty fucking cool that it shouldnt be bugfixed.

[Copybass]

Changeling suck makes you not viable for revival, that part is intentional and was like that before cloning removal as well. You get ling succed? You're out, permanently.

Should probably just replace the brain organ with a dried out/shrunk one though to make it more clear to doctors as they extract it.

Huh, I coulda sworn I've cloned people who were succed before after cutting brains out, I thought for that reason that succ wasn't a round-ender anymore - They mus'tve just been other husk types I always cloned. But yeah, anything to make it more obvious to doctors so they can just move it all right to the morgue. Swap "I'd have been cloned within minutes" with "I'd have been tossed in the body pile of unclonables within minutes"

[Tlaltecuhtli]

upgraded cloning could clone ling'd people

[Anonmare]

You are wrong.

Afraid you're wrong this time Skogol, maxed out cloners could absolutely clone ling victims.

[Nabski]

I think if this had gone before wound tending and stasis beds, it would have been too much.

Get noticed in 2 minutes after death and you can make it back into the round pretty often. Lay there for more than 5 and people have to jump through hoops.

I haven't been playing doctor but appreciate all the people that currently are. You're all actively doing work.

[Arathian]

You are wrong.

Afraid you're wrong this time Skogol, maxed out cloners could absolutely clone ling victims.

Yeah, I am not crazy. t3+ cloners could revive everyone, including succ'd, braindamaged, husked etc

[skoglol]

Just another reason cloning should have gone then. I cant imagine that was intentional, and it was likely a byproduct of husks being cloneable at t4.

[JJRcop]

Had a really fucked up round last night on Manuel where a muderboning lingtraitor killed me almost immediately into a round. I was a traitor myself, so I waited through being husked and recovered as my body was taken to medbay for repairs. They didn't dehusk me, and rather took my brain out to put into a new body. My brain however, didn't move my soul, so my soul remained in the husked body unable to be used, and they created a catatonic body with my brain in it, leaving me and another husked player to give up and find ghost roles.

Now I'm assuming this was a bug, but this took around 30 minutes of medbay running around, getting the monkey people, and they had no idea that the brain was buggy or otherwise, and I assume they simply thought I ghosted on them when they attempted the brain swap. It was absolutely pain for those of us in dchat, and it was absolutely pain for the medbay players who had to waste their time doing it, since it happened to at least two separate players in the round - meaning they were much less likely to attempt to save any other husks, assuming they would all be the same situation.

...

Changeling suck makes you not viable for revival, that part is intentional and was like that before cloning removal as well. You get ling succed? You're out, permanently.

Should probably just replace the brain organ with a dried out/shrunk one though to make it more clear to doctors as they extract it.

This is certainly a bug.

Code: Select all

[19:10:12] Runtime in brain_item.dm,88: bad index
  proc name: transfer identity (/obj/item/organ/brain/proc/transfer_identity)
  usr: JJRcop/(Taryn Summy)
  usr.loc: (Medbay Treatment Center (134, 109, 2))
  src: Scotty Northey\'s brain (/obj/item/organ/brain)
  src.loc: null
  call stack:
  Scotty Northey\'s brain (/obj/item/organ/brain): transfer identity(Scotty Northey (/mob/living/carbon/human))
  Scotty Northey\'s brain (/obj/item/organ/brain): Remove(Scotty Northey (/mob/living/carbon/human), 0, 0)
  manipulate organs (/datum/surgery_step/manipulate_organs): success(Taryn Summy (/mob/living/carbon/human), Scotty Northey (/mob/living/carbon/human), "head", the hemostat (/obj/item/hemostat), Organ manipulation (/datum/surgery/organ_manipulation), null)
...

fix coming soon

[PKPenguin321]

Just another reason cloning should have gone then. I cant imagine that was intentional, and it was likely a byproduct of husks being cloneable at t4.

i think it was intentional, and quite possibly a holdover from before we had T4 parts

[imsxz]

this was probably mentioned already but I’d like to see empty cloning and experimental cloning back. I’d be willing to refactor clone code to remove the “shitcode” issues maintainers had with it if the idea got greenlit. It’d give doctors something to level their surgery skills on, harvest organs, and do research dissections on during downtime’s, as well as making the revival of certain extremely unfortunate deaths a lot less aids, probably include permanent side effects and or debuffs to cloned bodies (as opposed to weak traumas/mutations/clone damage which are all cured with simple chems)

also big+1 for the suggestion of less painful solutions for dealing with large piles of dying/dead in medbay, it can get very overwhelming at times

[PKPenguin321]

A mindswap device would be pretty killer, big machine with two seats that you gotta strap dudes into and lower the dome hats onto em then pull a frankenstein style lever and use a bunch of power and shwoomp, brains get swapped out

[Copybass]

A mindswap device would be pretty killer, big machine with two seats that you gotta strap dudes into and lower the dome hats onto em then pull a frankenstein style lever and use a bunch of power and shwoomp, brains get swapped out

Loving the idea that NT technology just keeps regressing further and further into mad science and belief in the soul.

This would be great but of course it would need to include Flime chance for flavor

[Sheodir]

A mindswap device would be pretty killer, big machine with two seats that you gotta strap dudes into and lower the dome hats onto em then pull a frankenstein style lever and use a bunch of power and shwoomp, brains get swapped out

Loving the idea that NT technology just keeps regressing further and further into mad science and belief in the soul.

This would be great but of course it would need to include Flime chance for flavor

A teeny tiny chance that instead of your friend's mind he's ghosted and a ghost is put into the body with antag objectives.

Unfeasible but funny to think about.

[Grazyn]

Speaking of ghosts, there's a way to solve the issue of doctors being frustrated because dead players leave instead of waiting to be revived: pull a ghost when the body is revived, just like cult resurrection

[Sheodir]

Speaking of ghosts, there's a way to solve the issue of doctors being frustrated because dead players leave instead of waiting to be revived: pull a ghost when the body is revived, just like cult resurrection

Not sure if that's the best way. I like the "brain scanner" idea, an item that'd ask the ghost if they want to be revived and that lets them know they''ll be revived now. Good way to see if you should bother with the process.

[Dr_bee]

this was probably mentioned already but I’d like to see empty cloning and experimental cloning back.

It doesnt necessarily need to give the body problems if you just make it use similar resources to regular revival. Having the empty cloner use a significant amount of synthflesh and blood would be a good way to balance it.

The limb printer fully upgraded uses 10 synthflesh per limb, so using the non-upgraded version's costs for body making would be a good baseline.

[Anonmare]

Blood and sythflesh aren't paticularly hard to make.

Hell, all you need is 1 drop of blood to get you going and you can clone it an infinite amount of times with unstable mutagen. It would honestly be better if you had to shove raw meat/synth meat into the thing, it's marginally more effort since you can't carry meat in a bag

[CDranzer]

What if you replaced stasis beds with stasis scanners - visually like sleepers but with stasis and without chem injections and maybe with an advanced scanner built in? That way you can't operate on them while they're stasised but you can still put them on ice.

Maybe make surgery tables cut decay in half or something?

[Dr_bee]

What if you replaced stasis beds with stasis scanners - visually like sleepers but with stasis and without chem injections and maybe with an advanced scanner built in? That way you can't operate on them while they're stasised but you can still put them on ice.

Maybe make surgery tables cut decay in half or something?

the formaldehyde in epi-pens already stops decay entirely.

[Ziiro]

Just a heads up, the only reason plasma men get revived at all now is because of stasis beds. If you removed that death by paper cut is perma death because someone would have to have the foresight to build a surgery table under a shower (ps let us build shower heads)

[PKPenguin321]

I've played a bunch of MD since this change and I'm happy to say that it's actually not bad at all. I do miss empty cloning and the experimental cloner but in terms of how playing medical has changed, I think this has overall been a positive. That said, I did really like the theme of cloning, and I don't think it would have hurt to just put the same restrictions defibbing had onto it, but whatever.


Things I think could use changing:
- Turning monkeys into humans with mutadone is kind of awkward, a machine that does it might be cooler
- Not every map has a cell charger for the defib cells, which is really annoying
- While I do like the progression that surgery has with skill levels and different tiers of tools, it is still kind of boring at times. I've alt tabbed out of boredome during a very long Tend Wounds before because I literally had nothing to do but wait. Not sure how to fix sadly
- I wish there was some incentive to frankenstein people together instead of it being just a meme, I think there's some untapped potential here
- There are often way too many doctors leaving only one or two to do surgery while the others are left to boredom. The way the number of slots scales could be looked at, or surgery could somehow be made to benefit from having multiple people present?

[peoplearestrange]

I just played a round where a load of security and others got caught in a deadly brawl, and watching medical deal with it as it unfolded was honestly like a medical drama.

We had doctors rushing around saying things like "shit there are no beds left" or "get this one to surgery" and prioritising recently dead patients to resuscitate. Doctors calling for more hands or certain medicines to the chemists.

Most people managed to be revived, some didn't and it actually came off really well. Hearing about someone that wasn't so lucky or didn't make it was actually neat and made you cherish that fact you were one of the lucky ones that made it back to the land of the living.

I do think some maps now need reorganisation of their medbays to properly fit the new flow of work.
So it be like:

Entrance
Emergency room with stasis beds (4 minimum)
Linked to surgery or cyro's
Then next to it a ward with beds with drips and other things for non critical recovery and such.

[Shadowflame909]

Things I think could use changing:
- Turning monkeys into humans with mutadone is kind of awkward, a machine that does it might be cooler

We gotta put genetics back into medbay.

Otherwise it's medbay in reverse, where genetics get replaced by a machine. Like how MD's started off useless and only required to operate the sleeper.