/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:53 am**

Bottom post of the previous page:

"B-but guais, if we gut the entire system we have right now and betatest a whole new one surely the coders will improve it!" -Goof 20XX, moments before Goofchem is merged, colorized.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:54 am**

It isn't a whole new one though? We've had the supermatter for a while and it's already more in depth than the other engines.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:56 am**

Then just throw it in rotation with the others and let the engineers decide what they want, don't just decide for them.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:57 am**

ShadowDimentio wrote:"B-but guais, if we gut the entire system we have right now and betatest a whole new one surely the coders will improve it!" -Goof 20XX, moments before Goofchem is merged, colorized.

Not an argument

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:57 am**

If they decide on the singularity they will degrade the quality of the rounds though, that's what led us to this.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:59 am**

That's your opinion. Forcing people to use the hugbox engine because it's the least likely to dunk you if a traitor sabotages it is terrible.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:00 am**

ShadowDimentio wrote:Then just throw it in rotation with the others and let the engineers decide what they want, don't just decide for them.

More options doesn't always equate to better. This has nothing to do with your delusions of facism. It's simply more viable to focus efforts on one feature. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this before it gets through to you.
We have to rely on unpaid volunteers putting in their time to do free work for us. It would be very cool to have three well thought out, mechanically deep engines, but we have to find people willing to design them, balance them, code them, document them and then make sure they integrate properly into our code. We don't presently have that.

What we do have is several talented coders taking an interest in this project and proposing interesting gameplay mechanics and you spitting in their faces because muh nostalgia and muh coderspiracy

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:01 am**

That is the unanimous opinion of the maintainers/the head coder and the majority opinion of players that have responded to this thread and the PR.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:10 am**

I'm just saying man, this is going to suffer the same fate as every other engine has historically and be totally half-baked, but now be even more boring than a regular engine because it bitches for ten minutes that it's about to explode before it explodes.

This all could have been resolved by one coder lending their ear but no, #niceplayersfinishlast

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:11 am**

I really like the idea of having multiple possibilities to supermatting going critical.

So we have singulo at like 50%. Then as mentioned we have the delamination that destroys the universe as rarest. Also as mentioned hell portal opening and unleashing hell monsters controlled by player ghosts... Perhaps have the monsters spawn all over the station or just be always gunning for living things regardless of line of sight. We could do one involving wizards and magic where the crystal exploding gives everyone magic spells for shits and giggles.

Actually gives some interesting narratives to the engine failing

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:18 am**

ShadowDimentio wrote:I'm just saying man, this is going to suffer the same fate as every other engine has historically and be totally half-baked, but now be even more boring than a regular engine because it bitches for ten minutes that it's about to explode before it explodes.

This all could have been resolved by one coder lending their ear but no, #niceplayersfinishlast

Not a word you have said in this thread is a usable suggestion or constructive, and you are very fucking far from a nice player.

Don't try to pull that shit lad.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:18 am**

ShadowDimentio wrote:This all could have been resolved by one coder lending their ear

Lend their ear to what? All you've said is "just make three engines better" without any idea of how to do so.

You doubt our ability to make a single engine fun but you want us to somehow make three engines fun instead.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:22 am**

Wyzack wrote:
captain sawrge wrote:
Armhulen wrote:
captain sawrge wrote:I think we could incorporate a lot of these engine failure ideas as different SM failures and make it a dice roll on what happens, with the VG cascade universe ending being the rarest one
portal to hell when?
first ghost > bubblegum
next three > evolved devils
next six > demons
rest > imps (lol!)
I like this one a lot, considering megafauna are basically just a more engaging singulo anyway
fuck SS13 lets make a game about being UAC marines and scientists

the rest of this thread is irrelevant

the real idea here is to have the engine run off of argent energy sometimes and the cult is part of the station but if you fuck up demons invade and it uses deadchat to spawn doomguy and he can't be pushed over easily and has a ton of health and he shoots all the demons and i can play midis from doom

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:23 am**

Haevacht wrote:you are very fucking far from a nice player.

You don't even know who I play baka boy, you have no idea if I'm a good or bad boy.

Kor wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:This all could have been resolved by one coder lending their ear
Lend their ear to what? All you've said is "just make three engines better" without any idea of how to do so

ShadowDimentio wrote:Give them something to use all the energy for like a giant laser that mines/destroys stuff/sells power.

Port Goon overpowering mechanics where pumping shitloads of power into the system makes very bad thing happen, like APCs shooting out lightning, and doors/equipment fucking exploding when you use it to incentivize rogue engineers not just always releasing the engine.

Rehaul the engines to require more active maintenance if you're churning out power as hard as you can by replacing parts that burn out in equipment, refueling collectors, monitoring power surges/power failures and solving them.

Really we have all the tools (ba dum tss) to make engineering more involved and fun.

The root problem and why this is even being argued is because the engine gets out too much and I've a solution to that exact problem.

I can spitball ideas all day long, but nobody ever throws anything back. Except Xhuis, the best boy.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:26 am**

ShadowDimentio wrote:The root problem and why this is even being argued is because the engine gets out too much and I've a solution to that exact problem.

I'm not seeing that in those ideas you posted though

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:29 am**

ShadowDimentio wrote:Port Goon overpowering mechanics where pumping shitloads of power into the system makes very bad thing happen, like APCs shooting out lightning, and doors/equipment fucking exploding when you use it to incentivize rogue engineers not just always releasing the engine.

The engine gets out because someone either fucked up or someone let it out. The former is unavoidable, fuckups are just a part of life in SS13, but the latter is done because releasing the singu is extremely destructive. If you give an antag an equally good way to fuck up the station in engineering, namely overcharging the grid, they wouldn't release the engine because they'd need it to continue flooding the station with power.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:30 am**

ShadowDimentio wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:Port Goon overpowering mechanics where pumping shitloads of power into the system makes very bad thing happen, like APCs shooting out lightning, and doors/equipment fucking exploding when you use it to incentivize rogue engineers not just always releasing the engine.
The engine gets out because someone either fucked up or someone let it out. The former is unavoidable, fuckups are just a part of life in SS13, but the latter is done because releasing the singu is extremely destructive. If you give an antag an equally good way to fuck up the station in engineering, namely overcharging the grid, they wouldn't release the engine because they'd need it to continue flooding the station with power.

But if you want to cause the maxiumum amount of destruction and chaos you can't comare to just letting the engine out, APCs zapping people is nowhere near as dangerous as a tesla zapping people, and doors or whatever exploding isn't as dangerous as a sing eating everything

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:33 am**

Qbopper wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:Port Goon overpowering mechanics where pumping shitloads of power into the system makes very bad thing happen, like APCs shooting out lightning, and doors/equipment fucking exploding when you use it to incentivize rogue engineers not just always releasing the engine.
The engine gets out because someone either fucked up or someone let it out. The former is unavoidable, fuckups are just a part of life in SS13, but the latter is done because releasing the singu is extremely destructive. If you give an antag an equally good way to fuck up the station in engineering, namely overcharging the grid, they wouldn't release the engine because they'd need it to continue flooding the station with power.
But if you want to cause the maxiumum amount of destruction and chaos you can't comare to just letting the engine out, APCs zapping people is nowhere near as dangerous as a tesla zapping people, and doors or whatever exploding isn't as dangerous as a sing eating everything

Imagine how hard it would be to avoid getting fried by an APC as it launched lightning at anything nearby bouncing between machines while the doors and airlocks randomly start opening and closing very fast and crushing anyone caught inside, and anybody foolish enough to use a machine finds it blowing up in their face.

It'd be a very good alternative for getting the shuttle called to just releasing the engine.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:34 am**

That isn't at all a suggestion to making the engine more interesting or deep though it's just another button for engineering to kill everyone.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:36 am**

But you have to admit traversing a haywire station to engineering to have a duel with a rogue engineer is a pretty rad scenario compared to just releasing the singu and laughing as everyone dies.

I'd call that making it much deeper.

Plus there were like three other ideas do I seriously have to spoon feed them to you Kor

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:37 am**

It is not as destructive as the singulo and could not possibly be easier to do than the two clicks it takes for a singuloose so why would most people use it?

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:38 am**

Kor wrote:That isn't at all a suggestion to making the engine more interesting or deep though it's just another button for engineering to kill everyone.

You mention that no one gave any novel ideas to make singularity more depth filled or less instant release yet it seems no one even gave bother to my suggestion other than a single comment about how the PA is already hackable. The problem is people are so mindset with removing content instead of giving ideas to improve existing content to bring it on par with how the super matter works.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:39 am**

Why would I try to bring the singularity on par with the supermatter when the supermatter already works like we want it to. Sounds like a waste of my time and effort.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:40 am**

Wyzack wrote:It is not as destructive as the singulo and could not possibly be easier to do than the two clicks it takes for a singuloose so why would most people use it?

For RAW DESTRUCTIVE POWER the singu is unbeatable but for chaos and still killing everyone it'd be a very good alternative at the steep cost of only like three extra clicks.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:44 am**

The scenario will just repeat itself in the future when people learn how to quickly derail Supermatter it will have the same effect as the singulo and this thread will just be "Remove Supermatter in favour of the ( New Engine here)". The evolution of existing content should be more important than pushing solutions that are only relevant due to the current view on the issue rather than offering a solution to the issue as a whole.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:56 am**

SHTC wrote:The scenario will just repeat itself in the future when people learn how to quickly derail Supermatter it will have the same effect as the singulo and this thread will just be "Remove Supermatter in favour of the ( New Engine here)". The evolution of existing content should be more important than pushing solutions that are only relevant due to the current view on the issue rather than offering a solution to the issue as a whole.

The way to quickly do it involves sabotaging the atmos system with the emitters still on. But with Supermatter being a bit high maintenance more engineers are likely to be around the engine and not to mention when the alert goes out the AI can turn off the emitters while security and captain/engineers come to fix the atmospherics.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:58 am**

We're going to go from "the goose gets loose too much" to "the goose never gets loose"

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:06 am**

Bombadil wrote:
SHTC wrote:The scenario will just repeat itself in the future when people learn how to quickly derail Supermatter it will have the same effect as the singulo and this thread will just be "Remove Supermatter in favour of the ( New Engine here)". The evolution of existing content should be more important than pushing solutions that are only relevant due to the current view on the issue rather than offering a solution to the issue as a whole.

The way to quickly do it involves sabotaging the atmos system with the emitters still on. But with Supermatter being a bit high maintenance more engineers are likely to be around the engine and not to mention when the alert goes out the AI can turn off the emitters while security and captain/engineers come to fix the atmospherics.

That boils down a significant problem with the Super Matter, it is blatantly obvious there is sabotage. The engine removes all of the Deathtrap while making it having a blaring alarm that goes off whenever there's a slight issue. It doesn't require any meaningful maintenance other than waiting for the alarm to go off then rushing to fix it.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:33 am**

I wish you spoonfeed yourself a cup of shutting the fuck up

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:32 am**

The alarm should only be broadcast on the engineering channel instead of the general channel.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:37 am**

Broadcast on engineering until 25% remaining stability.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:38 am**

Yes, but singuloose is, right now, the easiest "fuck everyone" to institute and, at the same time, hardest to deal with. It takes one emag or just a pair of wirecutters, crowbar and screwdriver to get to engineering, where you can either set the PA to 2 or 3 or get insulated gloves and cut cables powering emitters.
Also, if you say SM doesn't require maintenance, what of singuloth? You set containment up, wait for it to grow to 3, then turn PA to 0 and fuck off, and it won't escape unless either antag fuckery, extreme incompetence or bugs happen.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:08 pm**

I'd say 50% stability.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:17 pm**

It's not like there aren't three other codebases that use supermatter engines as their primary means of power generation that you can look at for examples of how to have fun with it.

vg/polaris/bay have the cascade if a singulo eats the supermatter, supermatter explosions bypass the bombcap. There's plenty more FUN things that can be added as consequences to the crystal getting angry. Spewing out increasingly dangerous extradimensional horrors at an increasing distance from the crystal as the integrity creeps down from 30% to 0 would make it pretty obvious that something's awry and give something engaging to do.

Accidental singuloose is pretty boring to interact with as the only thing you can really do is run off.

Fighting cosmic horrors and defending the engineers who are frantically trying to bring the INFURIATED EXTENSION OF AN ANGRY EXTRADIMENSIONAL GOD back under control before it gets much much worse actually gives something to do.
In Alien, the tension at the end didn't come from the explosion itself that destroyed the Nostromo, it was Ripley frantically running through the corridors trying to shut off the self-destruct, failing, then trying to escape before the engine blew. As it stands, the singulo is basically "cut wire, no alarms, station gets destroyed with no counterplay or warning" which is boring. A sabotaged supermatter core, on the other hand, has you piling towards the engine room and throwing on radsuits as quick as you can to stop this fucking thing, I remember a round which had it melt the walls of the containment and pressure shunted it off the mass driver, and some engineer grabbed the crystal with pull-intent (the only thing you can do on there) and a stack of rods, and dragged the fucking thing out into space on a gantry before it finally blew, and I have no idea how they managed that while weighed down by the mass of their iron fucking balls.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:18 pm**

Perhaps command as well as engineering after 25%

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:20 pm**

Supermatter spawning yellow, crystalline monsters would be fun tbh.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:20 pm**

Nah no stupid mobs.

Just let it produce more power and serious boatloads of radiation the hotter it gets.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:11 pm**

Lets just have it spawn vortigaunts that shoot tesla bolts.

Valve's pretty loose on mods and references

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:28 pm**

The supermatter warning system should be some machine that can be sabotaged.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:35 pm**

leibniz wrote:The supermatter warning system should be some machine that can be sabotaged.

Like tcomms?

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:36 pm**

I was debating whether it'd sound too hostile to make that joke so I'm glad you did it for me

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:46 pm**

Saegrimr wrote:
leibniz wrote:The supermatter warning system should be some machine that can be sabotaged.
Like tcomms?

Is that how it works? I didnt really know.
For example the binary channel doesnt die when telecoms is ded (which is why silicon faceroll "kill coms, flood plasma" still works well)

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:05 pm**

It'd be nice if you could still order the other engine components from cargo. Mainly because I'm holding out hope that one day some mad man will set up all three engines and then unleash all of them at once.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:05 pm**

You can still order them from cargo yes

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:30 pm**

Since hallucinations seem also tied to SM, engine failure could bring hallucinations globally. After making them less obnoxious and more actually misleading/creepy.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:38 pm**

XDTM wrote:Since hallucinations seem also tied to SM, engine failure could bring hallucinations globally. After making them less obnoxious and more actually misleading/creepy.

Code: Select all

#define DETONATION_HALLUCINATION 600

Code: Select all

		if(damage > explosion_point)
			for(var/mob in living_mob_list)
				var/mob/living/L = mob
				if(istype(L) && L.z == z)
					if(ishuman(mob))
						//Hilariously enough, running into a closet should make you get hit the hardest.
						var/mob/living/carbon/human/H = mob
						H.hallucination += max(50, min(300, DETONATION_HALLUCINATION * sqrt(1 / (get_dist(mob, src) + 1)) ) )
					var/rads = DETONATION_RADS * sqrt( 1 / (get_dist(L, src) + 1) )
					L.rad_act(rads)

explode()

Already does.

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:17 am**

Wyzack wrote:
captain sawrge wrote:
Armhulen wrote:
captain sawrge wrote:I think we could incorporate a lot of these engine failure ideas as different SM failures and make it a dice roll on what happens, with the VG cascade universe ending being the rarest one
portal to hell when?
first ghost > bubblegum
next three > evolved devils
next six > demons
rest > imps (lol!)
I like this one a lot, considering megafauna are basically just a more engaging singulo anyway
fuck SS13 lets make a game about being UAC marines and scientists

i know this is kinda an old post but fuck that sounds fun

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:17 am**

I kind of liked the explosion better. It felt satisfying in that it was a single, short but massive blast that annihilated a large chunk of the station when the counter hit 100.

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:30 am**

maybe both is in order?

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:46 am**

Personally, I think the old containment field for singularity and/or tesla should still exist somewhere around engineering, requiring simply ordering PA and generator parts and a quick setup. That, and for the supermatter should start inside a crate (wrenched to the floor by default) to make it a bit of less "you're getting a supermatter engine whether you want it or not."

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:05 am**

One of the main arguments for SM is standardizing it as an engine, so we can balance power and stuff around it. Making singulo/tesla easy to set up as an alternative would negate that, so it's better to leave it as a possible but hard to build option.

/tg/Station 13

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