Microbombs and Macrobombs

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:07 am #98687

Bottom post of the previous page:

This is so horrid as an idea

It actually means that I have to crit people to arrest them if I can confirm the gamemode is traitor/DA or risk being gibbed

Like what the fuck

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:07 am #98705

You can still activate them while in crit, so it makes no difference.

I'd just like to say there is something very nice about the phrase 'macro bomb'.
Reminds me of the macro cannon from 40k maybe.

Not-Dorsidarf · Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:40 am

Buff the syndiebomb and make the Macrobomb the size it used to be.

Oldman Robustin · Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:57 am

Nukeops just showed up with macrobombs

These coders oh my gawd

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:07 am #98943

I'd like to come up with some constructive criticism, but there's nothing to be said.

Utterly indefensible in practice and an absolutely terrible idea to begin with.

invisty · Post by **invisty** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:42 am #98948

Lets have a look at this horrible cascade of game design decisions.

Original problem: Nuke ops are loot pinatas and it causes a domino effect.
First fix: Give them explosive implants so they don't drop much gear
New problem: The implants kill more crew than the scrubops themselves / the scrubops don't know to succumb and get stripped anyway. Cry me a fucking river. This wasn't a problem.
Second fix: Remove implants, make combat hard-suits unremovable. Syndies can buy explosive implants if they suck.
New problem: Nobody buys explosive implants.
Third fix: Make explosive implants scale according to TC purchase. Except they cost as much for the same original effect, and you can now stack them up to twenty.
New problem: People shouldn't have to click twenty times!
Fourth fix: Make it so that people can buy 20 TC's worth of boom in one click.
New problem: People just buy them and go crowd-bombing. First minibombs, syndiebombs, pizzabombs, payload-C4 bombs, and now unavoidable instant-gib?

Remind me again why you didn't just make explosive implants cheaper and/or give them to ops for free?

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:02 am #98951

>There's no problem with that because they can already do it for free with toxins.

I warned you that people will just roundstart fuck the station man.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:18 am #98953

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10179

Babin · Post by **Babin** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:43 am #98958

invisty wrote:Lets have a look at this horrible cascade of game design decisions.

Original problem: Nuke ops are loot pinatas and it causes a domino effect.
First fix: Give them explosive implants so they don't drop much gear
New problem: The implants kill more crew than the scrubops themselves / the scrubops don't know to succumb and get stripped anyway. Cry me a fucking river. This wasn't a problem.
Second fix: Remove implants, make combat hard-suits unremovable. Syndies can buy explosive implants if they suck.
New problem: Nobody buys explosive implants.
Third fix: Make explosive implants scale according to TC purchase. Except they cost as much for the same original effect, and you can now stack them up to twenty.
New problem: People shouldn't have to click twenty times!
Fourth fix: Make it so that people can buy 20 TC's worth of boom in one click.
New problem: People just buy them and go crowd-bombing. First minibombs, syndiebombs, pizzabombs, payload-C4 bombs, and now unavoidable instant-gib?

Remind me again why you didn't just make explosive implants cheaper and/or give them to ops for free?

I think by this point we've seen just about everything except the one thing that's been repeatedly suggested by multiple people

Spoiler:

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:44 am #98966

why would i ever not implant myself then

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:45 am #98967

so you can stun and implant enemies, then kill them so they gib. honk.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:52 am #98968

What I should stress, especially to you Invisity, is that the reason the Explosive Implants were removed in the first place by Cheridan was not because they killed people, all they could do was knock people down for a few moments, but because Cheridan just disliked the explosive implants and thought that removing the implants from the game would encourage Nuke Ops to role play with the crew...

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:29 am #98973

lumipharon wrote:so you can stun and implant enemies, then kill them so they gib. honk.

then just have them spawn with implants inside of them(which they do) and are able to buy ones to inject into people(which they are able to do)

callanrockslol · Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:53 am

Remove this from traitor or give them a 1 microbomb limit holy shit.

For nuke ops its funny as fuck but giving people almost maxcap bombs for no effort makes it a painful experience.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:08 am #98984

this is silly

it's not even that it's grossly overpowered or anything, which it is of course but what in the hell how many things have we broken to fix something that we haven't even fixed

this is some dwarf fortress level reasoning holy shit

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:51 am #98992

iamgoofball wrote:why would i ever not implant myself then

nuke ops medkit comes with a combat defib for a reason

Not-Dorsidarf · Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:22 am

PKPenguin321 wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:why would i ever not implant myself then
nuke ops medkit comes with a combat defib for a reason

If a nuke op actually dies as opposed to getting critted or stunned, it's because either every other op in the area who could help is also dead, or a yakketysax chemist whose blood is more meth than water slipped him on a lube spray and saxxed him three miles up the corridor while hitting him with a toolbox.

Frankly the combat defib is more useful for abductions, so you can just drag the captain out into space when you leave for the shuttle, combat defib his corpse, then bring him back as a trophy of war.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:39 pm #99038

IMHO just max cap the microbombs at 10 usages. Its highly tedious to purchase that many anyway since there is no x5 or x10 purchase buttons in the game (Why god why)

ChangelingRain · Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:56 pm

Some alternative adjustments to m(a/i)crobombs; https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10186
I'd honestly prefer to revert them but I can imagine the screaming.

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:37 am #99252

This is fucking absurd. I've been playing a lot lately and every single round with an antagonist with an uplink has at least one giant explosion almost as soon as the round starts.
Explosive implants are for denying people your gear upon your death. That's it. Why the fuck are they bombs at all?
This shit is unfun and outright stupid.

ExplosiveCrate · Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:05 am

Literally every single traitor round I've been in has at least two people bomb various parts of the station, prompting an immediate shuttle call at 12:20.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:29 am #99262

Not necessarily a bad thing.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:10 pm #99274

This also highlights an issue with the bomb cap/code changes we've made.
The cap was increased because the explosion code meant walls/r-walls etc sponge explosions well.

But in areas without lots of walls (like say, every corridor and room/department), the effect of walls is negligible, so we're just left with huge ass bombs that can completely crater an entire department.

Like, 5 gib range means almost anyone ONSCREEN with a bombcap bomb is going to get gibbed.
On the flip side, if they're any weaker, we get retarded shit like things 2 tiles away from a bomb surviving unharmed because of the intervening r-wall.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:11 pm #99275

I should elaborate more so on the Macrobomb, though I think boosting it to 30 TC's would be more fair.

Microbombs should be disallowed for Traitors and DA's. Its too cheap otherwise and obnoxious.

EDIT: What exactly do Micro and Macro bombs do for us anyway? The Microbomb was only introduced to replace the Explosive Implant Nuke Ops got while the Macrobomb was introduced to make it easier to buy 20 Microbombs. Do we really want anyone outside of Nuke Ops to have access to Explosive Implants, or 20 of them?

Not-Dorsidarf · Sat Jun 27, 2015 3:23 pm

They were ported from Goon because Goofball

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 3:40 pm #99296

I really don't think this is as bad as people are making it seem, Like any new toy this will be used and abused excessively when it's first put in, But it'll move back to the background once everyone has had their alahu ahkbar kicks.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 3:47 pm #99298

Hah, it's almost as though the playerbase doesn't actually want the game to be more lethal.

However, to those thinking it will die down, I doubt it. Many people feel comfortable not using traitor TC, but will jump at the chance to gib everyone next to them if they get dunked. That's just because it's satisfying to take people down with you and it also gets the round ended faster. For as long as macrobombs are a thing (for traitors/DA) they will be commonly used. They are great fun for the person using them, and plenty of people will use them because they know they may well get dunked and want to have some fun if it does happen. For all the talk about how bad 'planning to fail' is plenty of people will be okay doing it.

Great fun for the person using it, yes, not fun for any of the people near them who are getting permanently removed from the round in most situations without any potential of counterplay. It's almost impossible to detect an explosive implant (have to hope they carelessly left the box/implanter out with prints) and short of them being braindead or somehow knocking them unconscious before they're aware of your presence (perhaps with n2o, though any prepared player will have internals up quite quickly), and then keeping them alive and unable to commit suicide or succumb while you remove the implant, you are never ever EVER going to be able to fight someone you know is implanted effectively. This is quite different even from tank transfer bombs, where you can disarm them or make sure you don't activate the proximity or ensure the bomber can't give the voice command or all sorts of counterplays.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:37 pm #99357

Ohw gosh half the traitor and DA rounds now consists of traitors macrobombing at roundstart.

Who would have thought?

TheNightingale · Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:53 pm

How about this?

- Remove macrobombs
- Set the microbomb cap to ten instead of twenty
- Make a microbomb gib you no matter how many you have (more = more explosion = gib everyone else too)

Lumbermancer · Post by **Lumbermancer** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:11 pm #99374

>game starts
>3 explosions within first 2 minutes
>shuttle called

Very entertaining.

Xhagi · Post by **Xhagi** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:37 pm #99390

Remove Macrobombs. Nuke Ops start with one Microbomb implant that always gibs. Unable to order more Microbombs.

Holy shit every round of traitor or DA or traitorling is just macro, run to HoP/medical/Sec/bridge/main halls and max cap bomb. Shuttle gets called either by admins or as soon as it can be. There's no fun in it and no chance for anyone to do anything.

Incomptinence · Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:48 pm

I love it taking people to be borged instead of VIP cloning service is pretty fun.

I do realize these lovely explosions are making other people have a dreadful time so it really needs to be toned down.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:01 pm #99438

Now that macrobombs are getting removed, and that microbombs gib even with one, the new meta will be:

1) Get a stun weapon
2) stun random
3) implant random with microbomb
4) beat to death
5) watch them gib
6) repeat 9 more times

This is old c4 all over again.

TrustyGun · Post by **TrustyGun** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:22 pm #99450

Microbombs should be used for nuke ops denying the crew items, not for traitors to allahu-ackbar medbay. Remove it from the traitor list, keep it for nuke ops

Macrobombs are shit.

EDIT: also each nuke op can only get up to 2. you don't need 3 and more to deny items

EDIT2: actually, after seeing the discussion above and below me, traitors can get microbombs too. limitation of 2 too

Incomptinence · Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:25 pm

lumipharon wrote: This is old c4 all over again.

Good your sprite body is not a temple.

TheNightingale · Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:27 pm

lumipharon wrote:Now that macrobombs are getting removed, and that microbombs gib even with one, the new meta will be:

1) Get a stun weapon
2) stun random
3) implant random with microbomb
4) beat to death
5) watch them gib
6) repeat 9 more times

This is old c4 all over again.

That's pretty smart strategy, in my opinion. Feature (TM).

Post by **lumipharon** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:32 pm #99456

If people want easy access to 10 ggnore gibs at roundstart like we used to have when you could gib people with c4 and welding tanks, then great. But these were removed for a reason. It's fucking unfun.

TheNightingale · Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:34 pm

They're available for traitors too? I thought it was just operatives... hrm. Make it op-only, perhaps, á la cyanide pill.

Actionb · Post by **Actionb** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:07 am #99472

lumipharon wrote:
This is old c4 all over again.

The game has really gone full circle:
->ops *deathgasping to deny equipment (fluke ops don't and the crew gets their stuff)
-> ops get weapons with pins instead (people still can grab their most valuable asset the pinpointer)
-> ops now have unremovable suits (just melt the helmet off!)
-> ops have explosive implants again

Now we get c4 gibbing back.
There is no skill involved, it's no fun, it removes people permanently from the round. Those were the reason gib c4 was removed. And now it's back?
While I agree with Falamazeer, that people will exploit the fuck out of these new things leading to the swiss cheese stations we had the last few days, the microbomb implanter IS old c4 sans the humorous benefit of attaching c4 on a 99999 timer to yourself. How it is used will not change once the novelty has worn off.

ColonicAcid · Post by **ColonicAcid** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:39 am #99487

oh no im getting removed from a 1 hour round

Macrobombs are shit, microbombs are fine.
Stop being babies about not being able to play in a round. If you want less hectic rounds go play on Basil.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:52 am #99490

Playing on Basil, where you will be removed from a five hour round.

Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:58 am

My previous post got removed for being too hostile (which I agree I went a little overboard, but you can't say I didn't have a point, MisterPerson), so I'll rephrase it in a way that isn't directed at anybody in particular and has language toned down a bit.

If you think this is a good change, I want you to go play on Sybil for at least three rounds (as you evidently have not played since they were added). Yesterday I played about seven, and in all of those seven rounds (one wasn't even traitor, it was nuke ops), medbay was a crater to space. One time I was a traitor too and needed another traitor's secret documents, but he just blew himself up in medbay before I could even PDA him.

Attempting to repair the damage caused by these holes takes too many resources and too much manpower. It is not fun to fix the holes. A lot of the time, if critical equipment is destroyed (such as the circuit imprinters), a lot of other equipment can't be rebuilt. This means that a lot of the time the holes cannot be fixed even if everyone on the station attempted to and they all had EVA gear.

Almost every single round has the AI attempting to call the shuttle and being unable due to it being too early into the round. Shuttles are called consistently at the 12:20 mark, and we consistently have at least two huge, irreparable explosions.

This change is so awful that I would like to see administration manually disable any game mode that has an uplink until macro and micro bombs removed. Traitor and nuke op rounds have been the least fun and least engaging rounds as of lately, almost entirely due to this change.

I propose returning explosive implants to their original purpose of denying the crew of your gear, instead of being a way to destroy entire departments in one uncounterable blow or gibbing dozens of people before the five minute mark.

Post by **Atlanta-Ned** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:21 am #99535

Roundstart macrobombing = instaban.
Macrobombing at any point = explain your shit to the admins.

Problem solved until this gets fixed/reverted.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:11 am #99580

Atlanta-Ned wrote:Roundstart macrobombing = instaban.
Macrobombing at any point = explain your shit to the admins.

Problem solved until this gets fixed/reverted.

Haha, no. I'm not going to bwoink an antag unless he's camping the arrivals shuttle.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:46 am #99591

remove this kebab until balancing may be done

Xhagi · Post by **Xhagi** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:23 am #99597

What about this: macro removed completely, micro only for nuke ops. Ops start with a box of five micro implants at base. They can then either use one each for gear denial and a small explosion or stack them all on one person for a macro-type bomb. It's a trade off; either gear denial for all or one suicide bomb (WAS GETTING CAUGHT PART OF YOUR PLAN?) but now your down to four ops and no gear denial. Obviously micros wouldn't be on the uplink. Why do normal traitors need gear denial anyway?

Post by **oranges** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:24 am #99598

How about people stop whinging and get used to repairing breaches?

TheNightingale · Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:36 am

There's a difference between 'repairing breaches' and 'five maxcap bombs at roundstart'. It takes a while for an average Engineering team to repair one, not to mention the piping, wiring and fiddly windows, or the metal foam and firelock prep work to stop all the air leaving because of fastmos.

Actionb · Post by **Actionb** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:58 am #99640

ColonicAcid wrote:oh no im getting removed from a 1 hour round

Macrobombs are shit, microbombs are fine.
Stop being babies about not being able to play in a round. If you want less hectic rounds go play on Basil.

You really don't get the fact that the coders with their 'NO REVERTS NO TURNING BACK NO SURRENDER' policy have actually done exactly that? It's not only about being 'lel ur ded' undetectable, unavoidable, department wrecking bullshit suicide bombing or implant gib c4 affecting a few players each round.
They are adamant of not reverting almost anything and yet readd a feature that was removed for a reason, albeit in a slightly different form and say IT'S FIIIIINE!

oranges wrote:How about people stop whinging and get used to repairing breaches?

Sounds like you don't have any idea what it takes to repair a max cap bomb. Sure, patching up the 40+ tiles that are space is quick and easy, but repairing all the pipes and wires in the fuckifIknow 400 tiles or so that could have been affected by the bomb can take up to an hour even with a robust engineering crew. Not to mention crucial machines like grav gen, SMES, cloning, cryo and what have you. If you really just patch the hull, depending on the location of the blast, 80% of the station can be cut off from power and air from atmos.
One explosion per hour is doable, two is really stretching it, three is just call the shuttle.

Either remove microbombs from tator uplinks or make them only applicable to the traitor that orders them with a maximum explosion of 2 or 3 epicentre.
Why the availability of stacked microbombs is very different from toxins bombs has already been established like 10 times, don't come with the argument 'But why not max cap, what's the difference?'.
If you are REALLY obsessed with having max cap suicide bombs, add actual suicide vests. At least people will freak out when they see someone wearing it.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:09 am #99642

The problem is WHY do Traitors and DA's even need access to Micro or Macro bombs? They were originally a Nuke Op only implant that was pre implanted before round start, yet now that we've finally finished the song and dance with readding the explosive implants to Nuke Ops we decide to create even more controversy by just giving other antags access to these items without much consideration.

Actionb · Post by **Actionb** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:19 am #99643

Steelpoint wrote:The problem is WHY do Traitors and DA's even need access to Micro or Macro bombs?

Because people felt life on SS13 wasn't dangerous enough. So add instant max cap bombs to uplinks to make the game fun and exciting again. At least, that's the pretended excuse I got from all this.