General Admin Rule Enforcement

[Syrias]

Obviously, I'm upset.

I just want to preface this topic with that. The real reason why I'm upset isn't because I've been screwed pretty badly in a couple of rounds. I don't mind that. I get angry, and I get over it seconds after the next round actually starts. Anyone who's heard me bitch in OOC, I like to vent a little about shit that went wrong or was pretty unfair. Commiseration really makes me feel a lot better. S'why I love dead chat.

Anyway, what really gets to me is the perception I've gathered that the admins aren't enforcing server rules. It's not just that-- the entire culture of play in the game is directly contrary to the rules established.

There’s a lot here, but the gist of the rules is roleplay takes priority. Don’t murder just for fun if you’re not antag. Don’t metagame. Don’t play to win. Don’t be a jerk OOCly. If you don’t understand what those words mean or you need more detail, read on!

This is just the broad strokes tl;dr taken directly off the Rules page of the wiki. Anyone who has played even one round can tell that that just doesn't happen. I can't even count the number of times (probably because I brush it off like an adult after bitching for a bit; it's not that big a deal) I've been meaninglessly slaughtered because some asshole has a murderboner. The number of grey tides that have just shit all over everything every match.

I don't see how the actions of a large number of players can be justifiable.

If you're intentionally trying to ruin everyone else's good time, you won't have a place here.

Really? Because that's the modus operandi of what feels like every assistant I've ever run into. It's not just a pattern, it's become a rule in its own right.

Repeatedly wrecking havoc on other players' experience without otherwise contributing anything of actual value to the game will not be tolerated.
Doing this as an assistant ("greytiding") will result in an assistant-jobban.

I would LOVE to see this enforced for at least one shift.

I had an admin have the gall to ask me if I've read the rules of the server because I expressed outrage at another player's actions in OOC. I didn't describe what it was, I didn't even allude to what it might have been. This player was flagrantly flouting the rules deliberately to piss off other players and be a total asshat. Rather than expend any energy whatsoever to address their copy/pasting erotica into chat, creating an endless stream of offensive material for other players to endure (which the characters of the game solved themselves, despite clearly being the realm of the admins), they chose to address my expressing irritation that this player, whom I had previously reported for the exact same behavior in a round the previous day.

This is a roleplaying game. The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying. Being an asshole, who ruins other player's roleplay experience, just to win, is considered a 'play-to-win' style of playing. You can and will be banned for this playstyle. Be considerate of other players' experience.

Look. I get that /tg/ station isn't really a serious RP server. In fact, I enjoy that. However, players ignoring even the slightest concept of RP, and, indeed, when the subject comes up at all, expressing such a dire loathing of it, it shows that the player base doesn't even show the slightest amount of respect for this rule at all. It is just a game to them, and they have to put on the thinnest veneer of RP to "play."

If you take up or are given a job, which is important for game progression (head of staff, AI, antagonist role), make sure you actually do that job. If you find yourself unable to do this due to real life circumstances, just let an admin know (adminhelp) before you leave, please.

This just happens all the time. It's a simple fact. If there are any consequences for this action, I have never seen them.

Erotic Roleplay is not allowed. Consensual ERP should be done elsewhere. Unwelcome ERP will be punished with a permaban.

Yes, this means endlessly streaming erotica over the fucking radio. Was this person permabanned, despite IC and OOC requests to stop? Absolutely not. Was it reported to the admins, who did nothing? Yep.

Look, I'm normally the kind of guy who never posts on the forums. I don't like to complain (except for a bit of stress-relief after a round every so often), especially not seriously about the operations of a server. But this is a fact that really should be addressed. If you're going to have rules that you "enforce," enforce them equally, and actually enforce them. If you don't like these rules, change them. You're the admins. But at least let the player base know what they are, and stick to them. You will really win the respect of the community that way, instead of looking like you're half-assing it, which, from many other actions, you clearly aren't. But gameplay is just so ridiculously contrary to what you're supposed to be enforcing, it is no wonder that so few players will break rules so often and flagrantly. It's clear that you don't actually enforce them.

I enjoy the server's challenge, and I don't mind playing with all the chaos. I generally LIKE the server. I mean, that's why I keep coming back. And at certain times of the day (0700-0800 EST), the player base actually does adhere to the rules and it makes for a truly amazing gameplay experience. I want THAT level of awesome to be what everyone gets to see all the time. However, as soon as 1700 EST rolls around, all the shitlers get online and any semblance of obeying the rules goes out the window entirely. I don't want to get so fed up with this that I have to leave. I want to see this server be as awesome as I know it can be. I just ask that you either change the rules so that they're what you actually want to have happen, or you actually enforce the rules that you currently have. The juxtaposition between design and reality is killing me.

INB4 - "IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT THEN WHY DON'T YOU JUST LEAVE?"
INB4 - "THAT'S THE WAY IT'S ALWAYS BEEN LOL"
INB4 - All the obnoxious things fa/tg/guys always say to put someone down when they have a valid argument, get immediately angry, and just generally shit all over OP. I know I'm angry, and I'm sure I haven't phrased things as well as I could have. I really do apologize, and I mean it. I'm just upset at a series of events, because I came to start caring about this server, and it will hurt my previous little feelings if the admins really don't care about us. It feels that way, and logically I know that's not true, but I can't help but believe it, y'know? I'm not upset at being killed. That's part of the fun.

[Saegrimr]

I'm assuming you've been ahelping these instances where nonantags have been murdering you outright for no reason?

I had an admin have the gall to ask me if I've read the rules of the server because I expressed outrage at another player's actions in OOC.

That's because IC in OOC is the fastest and most visible way to get banned, congrats.
Don't hint, don't try and be vague, don't try to dance around it, don't just "happen to bring up the topic about a SIMILAR instance to what's happening in the round right now". Just don't.

[Syrias]

*sigh* And the first post is already attacking me. Instead of contemplation on how there could be a real problem here, you have immediately turned this into how I could possibly be wrong. I have not been banned. I was partially outraged that they even could have considered going after my possible IC in OOC (I am actually quite confident that it was not in violation), when there was a far more obvious and immediate violation of the rules ongoing.

Please review logs of what actually happened in that event before jumping all over me. Additionally, this topic is not about that instance. It is about a pattern of admins not enforcing the given server rules. Please direct comments to discussing that

Yes, I report ill behavior on rare occasion. Generally, I try not to, because I don't want to get people banned. That's not my job. And if admins are ONLY checking in on the game when someone messages them, that would be a strong warning sign that they are not doing enough to actually monitor gameplay violations. Using the playerbase to police itself is foolish. I like to believe that it is quite clear that it simply doesn't happen very often, and when it does, it's more a matter of players RAEGing at one another instead of reporting honest-to-goodness rule violations. But I don't see that side of the game, I wouldn't know and I couldn't make a good judgement on that.

[Saegrimr]

*sigh* And the first post is already attacking me. Instead of contemplation on how there could be a real problem here, you have immediately turned this into how I could possibly be wrong.

Well when you say "I've been meaninglessly slaughtered because some asshole has a murderboner." in reference to how rules aren't being enforced, the only way this would break rules is if he was a nonantag. Unless you actually ahelp that shit we likely wont catch it.

I was partially outraged that they even could have considered going after my possible IC in OOC (I am actually quite confident that it was not in violation), when there was a far more obvious and immediate violation of the rules ongoing.

I've banned people for much less. Again, just don't. Ever. I understand people get mad at other people in-game. That's what dead chat is for.

Please review logs of what actually happened in that event before jumping all over me.

I haven't accused you of anything that you haven't already admitted to.

Yes, I report ill behavior on rare occasion. Generally, I try not to, because I don't want to get people banned.

So you want us to enforce all the rules, but you're not willing to point out rule breaking material to us? That's kind of unfair, don't you think?
There's upwards of 80 people on the server, we can't watch each and every one of you turds 24/7.

Maybe if you wanna start paying us a salary i'll hop on and ban each and every last person who so much as causes some hurt feelings.

[Tsaricide]

Repeatedly wrecking havoc on other players' experience without otherwise contributing anything of actual value to the game will not be tolerated.
Doing this as an assistant ("greytiding") will result in an assistant-jobban.

I would LOVE to see this enforced for at least one shift.

This is meant over multiple rounds not a single round.

[tedward1337]

Paid admins when

[Syrias]

Look, Saegrimr, I'd love to argue with you until the cows come home. I feel I can deliver some truly biting and witty repertoire, and dutifully argue your points into the ground. But I'm not here to fight with you. This is about working together to solve what I perceive to be a very real issue. Please focus on addressing that instead of trying to tear me down and argue semantics. The example I provided is just an example. Surely you have all noticed these trends in player behavior?

Also, thank you, Tsaricide, for that clarification. I misunderstood that one. However, I believe that my point remains valid that the rule is consistently broken, even if my complain-y bitching afterwards isn't. The afore-mentioned behavior IS commonplace, and usually it is the same characters again and again. I get to have a pretty good perspective of this playing as AI (it's my favorite role). I have noticed certain players saying that they play Assistants with random names every time, because otherwise people will get wise to their actions. How, I ask, would we be able to track such a thing? I'm sure you have this ability, but, if, as Saegrimr has mentioned, you're far too important to bother with actually monitoring the games, how would YOU ever learn of it? How could we players point such a commonality out to you without the player directly admitting to it in OOC chat?

If admins are unable to find or investigate these things for themselves, I will be happy to start logging every single rule violation and reporting it, if it means that it will improve the game experience for everyone. I just didn't want to be that guy. However, if the point that you (admins, collectively) would like to put across to the player base is that the only way that rules will be enforced is if we report every incident to you, otherwise only chat-related rules will be enforced, I can understand that. Is that your feedback? I was operating under the assumption that you guys were more involved than that. If I am wrong, I can accept that it is up to me.

[Saegrimr]

I don't disagree that more people need to be more RP oriented and assistants can all collectively eat shit. The only issue here is you think we need to trudge through a couple hundred thousand line logfiles daily to match up each individual action performed by each player. Or you know, you could just press F1 and go "This guy is being an incredible shit please help".

If admins are unable to find or investigate these things for themselves, I will be happy to start logging every single rule violation and reporting it, if it means that it will improve the game experience for everyone. I just didn't want to be that guy. However, if the point that you (admins, collectively) would like to put across to the player base is that the only way that rules will be enforced is if we report every incident to you, otherwise only chat-related rules will be enforced, I can understand that. Is that your feedback? I was operating under the assumption that you guys were more involved than that. If I am wrong, I can accept that it is up to me.

We can find just about anything, if we have reason to suspect there is something to look for.

Do you put on your best SWAT costume and clear your house three times a day to check for intruders hiding in the closets? No, you have no reason to. If we don't see shit happening, and nobody reports shit happening to them, and nothing looks particularly off about a situation, then we don't look for it.

[Syrias]

Do you put on your best SWAT costume and clear your house three times a day to check for intruders hiding in the closets? No, you have no reason to. If we don't see shit happening, and nobody reports shit happening to them, and nothing looks particularly off about a situation, then we don't look for it.

No, but I would certainly go in with insect-killer I would if I knew that there were a dozen pests hiding beneath my floorboards. Just because you don't see the problem with a cursory glance doesn't mean that there isn't a problem. That speaks of "I'm willing to make judgements, but not if I have to LOOK for problems." Your whole basis of reasoning sounds lazy.

Admittedly, I have never been an admin. And I have never used whatever software/position that you all use. I have no right or ability to speak on how challenging or how much work it would be. I have no idea exactly how much time investment is to be put into searching these things out. As with most things, I imagine it's much more than I would expect. That's why there's a team, right? So you don't have to do this all alone.

If nothing else, I want to draw attention to that fact. If the current system isn't working at enforcing the rules, I think that the current system needs to be re-evaluated. I don't want to cast blame or say that YOU as an admin are incorrect, or that any individual is. That's a big part of the reason why no names were given. This is supposed to provoke thought and discussion towards solutions. The first step, however, is to get people to see that there's a problem. As I've yet to hear anyone say that the problem doesn't exist, I would assume that everyone is aware of it (Of course, it's far too early to make that claim). So then the next step would be to try to fix it.

I posit that there is a problem with the rules not being adhered to and not being enforced. How can we solve it? Would encouraging players to make more frequent reports solve the issue? Or would it create more problems? Is it possible for admins to become more involved? Maybe whoever the "lead admins" are can encourage the others to become more active. Maybe one of them should write up a guide to share their tips and tricks for being more efficient, or finding problems before they become an issue? I think it would be far more productive to work towards that.

[Falamazeer]

I think the problem here is your issues are too vague to ever be actionable, It all kinda boils down to "do more"

[Vekter]

Rada radda case-by-case basis radda

[TheBibleMelts]

Yes, I report ill behavior on rare occasion. Generally, I try not to, because I don't want to get people banned.

Quit complaining, then. We do other shit besides stand over the game in ghost-form hunting gryphons.

[rdght91]

What is the end state here OP? What the fuck, concretely, do you actually WANT to happen here?

[ABearInTheWoods]

Erotic Roleplay is not allowed. Consensual ERP should be done elsewhere. Unwelcome ERP will be punished with a permaban.

Yes, this means endlessly streaming erotica over the fucking radio. Was this person permabanned, despite IC and OOC requests to stop? Absolutely not. Was it reported to the admins, who did nothing? Yep.

No, it does not mean spamming erotica over the radio.

This was made clear when we first banned erp, that the erp ban was to have a very narrow field of effect. Mind you, on some servers, you can get a perma ban for saying "eat a dick" because they consider that erp. We plan to avoid playing a slippery slope to that effect, as we promised players when they drew that concern up when we first banned erp.

ERP in the context of that rule is role playing out erotic interactions with other characters. Where you emote sexual encounters with other crew members and the like.

I find it funny that you quoted the rule that you could twist to kinda sorta support your position, but not the one not too far below it that flat out says it's allowed:

Reading Woody's Got Wood or other versions of pornographic reading material over the radio will 9 times out of 10 get you lynched by the crew. Reading these for the sole purpose of fighting people who try to stop you will get you banned.

You read the rules page with the goal of supporting your belief, only saw what you wanted to see, and either got biased by your belief that a person you found annoying should be banned, or flat out decided to ignore the rules that contradicted your position, arguing in bad faith.

Either way, my response is the same. I am going to suggest you take a step back, calm down, and after you are no longer biased by anger, reexamine the situation.

[DrunkenMatey]

While I agree some of the things he mentions are not correct (such as the reading erotica as has been thoroughly explained now) I do agree with his view that most of those rules are not being followed and would find this thread far more interesting if it wasn't everyone bashing him or being dismissive of it all.

There are absolutely grey tiders who grey tide every round or who are just generally shit at whatever position they get. Xerxes is amusing but face it, if he is ever in your department you won't ever count on him doing his job, because he isn't going to. There are also those players who suicide shortly after a shift starts cause they didn't get antag or a job they like and other crap like that. Or the people who spend all round lighting themselves on fire which sounds right up there with "I am RPing a serial killer!". So yes, I definitely agree that the rules are not really followed by some people and would be interested on a discussion in that regard.

I would like to mention though, that I do not think admin helping is a bad thing. Just because you adminhelp something doesn't mean you are mad or trying to get someone banned. I think adminhelping is essential in letting admins know that something has happened that may require their attention. Giving admins more info is not a bad thing; unless you are just constantly harassing them with bullshit.

In the interest of getting some discussion going on what I believe the OP was hoping to get discussion going on...
What do you think about the posted server rules and whether or not they are being followed or enforced? Or if they should be redone?

[Sabbat]

Adminhelping somebody doing something rule breaky that doesn't have to do with mass deaths or the deaths of somebody who isn't you generally gets you mocked by admins though. I can see why he wouldn't want to.

By making this thread he is now being mocked for making this thread. That is how it goes. This post will probably be deleted though even though it's relevant to the discussion.

[ThanatosRa]

Adminhelping somebody doing something rule breaky that doesn't have to do with mass deaths or the deaths of somebody who isn't you generally gets you mocked by admins though. I can see why he wouldn't want to.

By making this thread he is now being mocked for making this thread. That is how it goes. This post will probably be deleted though even though it's relevant to the discussion.

To BE fair, as much as I hate the negativity being thrown around here, I actually agree with this statement and petition that it not be deleted.

We must All look at ourselves, everyone, and ask ourselves, rationally, what we're doing.



Sadly, I am also of the opinion that perhaps the Admins regardless of what they do, should be extended some gratitude, if only because they give their time to administrate and keep this place from being a grifffest every round.

Everything in moderation, but the admins DO deserve some fun. They should be held accountable, but they shouldn't be disallowed from doing anything but babysit the server. Do you want them to sit around there doing nothing but that?

Of course now I'M getting off topic. I'll refrain. I don't know what the thread will accomplish save for venting.

[John_Oxford]

Realized i can post on here now, this was the last deleted post.

Not entirely sure i can post on this, plz no ban me, kthx.


I would fucking break my face muscles if someone came out and said "Hey admins, if you are a fucking pillar of the community, i'l pay you 10 dollars every month"

If you are a pillar of the community and no one pays you to be, you are by far, the best representation of a admin on the face of the planet. (None of you are, you all have been complained about/ done stupid shit / not done your jobs )


However. This is reality. Being a admin is a volunteer job, they aren't paid for it.

The "You don't pay me, why should i spend 18 hours of my time everyday to insure that your spessman simulator is perfectly shithead free"

Because if you did.
You would be.
A.
Good.
Admin.

But being a good admin doesn't put food on the table, so it doesn't happen, this is reality.
I encourage players to be more robust, instead of relying apon admins to do their dirty work.
Admins, since we don't pay you, don't be shit heads to us when we do the jobs ourselves because you neglected to.

EXAMPLE:
Shithead Mcgee hits me into crit with a toolbox
I admin help it
No response
I admin help it again
No response
I get revived
I go kill Shithead Mcgee
Shithead Mcgee admin helps it
ADMINSTRATOR MESSAGE:
y u keel him, plz expains
Logical Reasoning is given
YOU HAVE BEEN BANNED: REASON:
u keel as non antag plz read rules
This happens CONSTANTLY, and its all behind the scenes because there IS a admin conspiracy, the adminstration team is not a team, its a cult, if you stab a cult member in the back, the entire cult team is going to kick your ass/deadmin you. No one wants that, so they all help the admin being acused. That's just how it is, Wake up Sheeple.

This is what needs to happen.
EXAMPLE:
Shithead Mcgee hits me into crit with a toolbox
I admin help it
No response
I admin help it again
No response
I get revived
I go kill Shithead Mcgee
Shithead Mcgee admin helps it
No response.
Shithead Mcgee complains in OCC about it, revealing in game information.
OOC: Hornygranny: Take it to the fourms, shit head.
Shithead Mcgee is then perma banned.
Problem. Fucking. Solved.


Essentially, you could just autofill sec at round start, encourage players to become more robust. Make the game systems themseleves more robust.
Everyone will now be extremely anti-social, or extremely robust.
Preferably the latter.

Instead of debuffing armor, Make ALL the weapons STUPIDLY fucking robust.

Please move this else where if i'm not allowed to post here. Thank you.

[TheNightingale]

This is what needs to happen.
EXAMPLE:
Shithead Mcgee hits me into crit with a toolbox
I admin help it
The admins, seeing my ahelp, bwoink Mr. McGee
Finding out what happened, they ban him for living up to his name
Problem solved!

Fixed that for you.

[Saegrimr]

This happens CONSTANTLY, and its all behind the scenes because there IS a admin conspiracy, the adminstration team is not a team, its a cult, if you stab a cult member in the back, the entire cult team is going to kick your ass/deadmin you. No one wants that, so they all help the admin being acused. That's just how it is, Wake up Sheeple.

This is parody, right?

[tedward1337]

This happens CONSTANTLY, and its all behind the scenes because there IS a admin conspiracy, the adminstration team is not a team, its a cult, if you stab a cult member in the back, the entire cult team is going to kick your ass/deadmin you. No one wants that, so they all help the admin being acused. That's just how it is, Wake up Sheeple.

This is parody, right?

Top kek

[John_Oxford]

Must be.

Rule Number One of fight club is don't talk about fight club.
This applies to admin conspiracy cult illumanati club.

[Vekter]

There are times that I wish I wasn't an admin so I could tell you how full of shit you are without getting called a part of the magic adminbus conspiracy.

the adminstration team is not a team, its a cult, if you stab a cult member in the back, the entire cult team is going to kick your ass/deadmin you. No one wants that, so they all help the admin being acused. That's just how it is, Wake up Sheeple.

That's going in my sig.

[Saegrimr]

There are times that I wish I wasn't an admin so I could tell you how full of shit you are without getting called a part of the magic adminbus conspiracy.

Its okay, I feel like i'm already toeing the line of being deadminned for being an open asshole to people who say/do stupid shit. You can't do much worse than me.

[Vekter]

There are times that I wish I wasn't an admin so I could tell you how full of shit you are without getting called a part of the magic adminbus conspiracy.

Its okay, I feel like i'm already toeing the line of being deadminned for being an open asshole to people who say/do stupid shit. You can't do much worse than me.

No, I have no problem calling people out as an admin. I just don't like being told "Oh but YOU'RE AN ADMIN, OF COURSE you side with them!"

[Not-Dorsidarf]

There are times that I wish I wasn't an admin so I could tell you how full of shit you are without getting called a part of the magic adminbus conspiracy.

Here, let me try.

John Oxford, you are the densest, most moronic motherfucker I know. Shit spews from your every orifice whenever you open your stupid face. On the sublimely rare occasion you actually have a good point, your vapid bawling about conspiracies shatters your tenuous grip on anyone's giveafuckometer. Just. Stop.

[DemonFiren]

I still hope this man is satirical, because God, I'm an ex-Bay furfag and even I am nowhere near as autistic.

[mosquitoman]

Why is the word "conspiracy" being thrown around so much? Is it even slightly unlikely that a group of individuals communicating in secret would agree to have some common secret goals?

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Like what? Gaining supreme power over the game that until recently /a trialmin could deadmin every other admin and ban every player?/ The game that they're already in charge of? Eating all the pizza?

[Stickymayhem]

This thread started off terrible, rose in potential and then crashed again pretty quickly.

Time to die.

Also John is joking. You can tell because unlike most people retarded enough to spout shit like that, he doesn't do it every day.

Spoiler:

Mosquitoman's opinions sadly appear to be genuinely held. The administration would wish him a speedy recovery and release from the insanity ward but our brainwave manipulators can't get through the tin foil.