Engineering competency at an all time low?

Alzam · Post by **Alzam** » Fri May 16, 2014 8:22 pm #6351

I took a good 8 month or so break from spaceman, and I've noticed in my time back that engineering has gone to shit pretty badly. Back at least up until a year ago, the engine would pretty much always be set up, and someone wires solars. Sure you'd be hard pressed to get engineers to actually repair anything, but you'd at least know that power wouldn't run out ten minutes into the shift. Nowadays it seems the vast majority of rounds are ended early because engineers either take the suits and run, or fuck up massively like turning on the PA without the emitters, turning on the emitters but not even ASSEMBLING the PA, releasing plasma, or my personal favorite I've started seeing, forgetting to even touch the radiation collectors. The big problem with all of this is that they're almost NEVER antag, and adminhelps about this situation are always ignored and I'll see the same people next shift do the same exact shit. What the fuck happened? And why are admins so reluctant to jobban these people, or even give them warnings? I almost feel like I have to play engineer to babysit people. And that blows.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Fri May 16, 2014 8:40 pm #6352

I've been playing this game for nearly 3 years now, and engineering competency has been the same as it always has (By which I mean borderline shit).

Most of the time, the engine fucking up is simply because there either aren't any engineers, or it was intentional sabotage. Most admins I know will investigate loose singularities and either educate or punish those responsible.

Engineers, or any job for that matter, who take the limited equipment and fuck off will and do get jobbanned if brought to our attention.

Comrade Leo · Post by **Comrade Leo** » Fri May 16, 2014 9:04 pm #6353

Speaking from Artyom experience as of late - engineering teams aren't all that bad, unless low pop. I have all roles except few of the service roles and heads, set to medium, on the occasion that I get engineering or atmospherics I'm usually alone. On a rare occasions we have full engineering teams they are usually the most organised team on the station.

If people don't know how to do engineering, just ask someone to teach you - same with atmos.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Fri May 16, 2014 11:02 pm #6364

the only issue ive ever seen with them is that there arent enough of them
i love to play engineer though and if there isnt anyone in it when i latejoin i usually pick it

Durkel · Post by **Durkel** » Fri May 16, 2014 11:41 pm #6373

I blame the new player surge. Been seeing loads of easy questions, fuckups, and ooc in ic.The biggest offender I've seen is someone going ((xDDDDD)) in fucking chat and That made my blood boil. Engineering only really needs one player to baby them, which SHOULD be the CE. Then again, there have been plenty of times I've seen the CE admit he doesn't know how to set up the singularity and just hopes his team doesn't need him.

Pretty much fuck everything. if you don't want your round ruined in five minutes then play engineer and do it yourself.

BillWilson · Post by **BillWilson** » Sat May 17, 2014 5:24 am #6408

I'm in the same boat. I took a break so long I forgot my BYOND key, and I feel like, while always being shit, engineering has gotten even shittier. There are only a few names I know I can trust to NOT fuck up everything. I seriously had a round where I was the only engineer and was setting everything up fine. New guy joins the station as a station engineer and next thing I know singulo is loose. Had another round where it was me and one of the engineers I know is alright, as soon as another engi hopped on, we get an alert from the AI plasma is leaking - even though engine was set up the engineer claimed he legitimately didn't know and was trying to fill up the tanks - and his corpse did indeed contain several filled canisters. Several times an explosion on the station exposed to space will see engineers called to fix it, and in spite of having a full crew and repeatedly calling them, it's just me and a lone engi-borg.

Then on the other side, I'll have several rounds were I'll spawn with a full crew, go out to set up the emitters, and come back with everyone gone. Hardsuits, gloves and tools gone, and sure enough, everytime the HoS is telling me he caught one of my engineers breaking into armory or the Captain's quarters. So many people seem to treat the job as a free toolbelt and gloves (or a rigsuit if they're quick enough) and fuck off right away. And 90% of the time their not even antag. If I do yell at them they tell me they don't know how to set up engine or do solars and that I should stop being so mean, or no response at all. I hate being a faggot, but now I just tell security the moment they make it clear they're not coming back to keep an eye on them if there's any hacked doors or people in space.

Past few nights I've been playing botanist instead, and literally every round minus one the singulo either is released due to the SMESs not being set up right, or the engine was never set up - even though we had a full engineering crew in all of those. I don't like teaching players because I'm impatient, but I have several times shown how to set up the engine now and it still fucking happens.

I know engineering has always been shit, but I don't remember it being this bad.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat May 17, 2014 5:35 am #6410

Yeah I do have to admit, I've seen rounds with a fully staffed Enginering team and the singularity is never set up.

In fact one round I was in I had to get all of Security to set up the singularity. That was pathetic considering the full Engi team and a CE.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sat May 17, 2014 7:40 am #6427

I wish some of the Artyom Atmosians would go Engi/CE. It's really annoying to see Mai Emershun(sic), Ty Andrews and Saiga Not-Spelling-Your-Lastname-Fuckyou all as Atmo Techs, all three of which I know are robust (Heck, I remember Ty and Mai from back in the day), and no engine, or we gotta bug them for it. C'mon you guys, if you're going to go Atmo on lowpop, go CE.

Actually that goes for everyone - If it's a lowpop round, go for your departmental head instead of your usual slot, if only so you can pick up slack and/or we have more people capable of calling the shuttle.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sat May 17, 2014 9:05 am #6440

We need to fix this by making all engineers spawn in solar rooms with nothing but a firesuit, a coffee and wire.

They can only escape by having the solar console detect power coming in otherwise the door doesn't open.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sat May 17, 2014 9:25 am #6444

imblyings wrote:We need to fix this by making all engineers spawn in solar rooms with nothing but a firesuit, a coffee and wire.

They can only escape by having the solar console detect power coming in otherwise the door doesn't open.

Only the robust shall survive

ABearInTheWoods · Sat May 17, 2014 9:55 am

One round the ce couldn't get the pa running, ai was talking about how he was fucking with wires on the pa, how she didn't know what he was doing.

Captain sees me running by between maints, decked out in full graysuit gear, gloves, engi hard hat, flashlight, tool belt, mutitool and screw driver in my hand and says HEY!, you look competent.

I come in and all of the tiles near the pa are crowbar'ed up the wiring's been completely redone, wires shooting off to corners than going no where, only engi is the ce, and hes hitting random parts of the pa with wires.

I run the screw bar on the middle part (the only one that doesn't tell you visually if its been closed) oh look, it hasn't,

The collectors were filled and the containment was up, so i tell the ce to try it. he does, it turns on, yay!.

I noticed the green bar was running low on one so i say oh shit, powers fucked, i turn the pa off, and run to go setup the pacman, in the middle of this i notice in my chat log that he said "I don't know what hes talking about, generators are all up, and the blue bar is full"

Turns out he had turned the pa back on and around the time it popped the generators turned off. He goes to fix it and gets sucked in, (hadn't turned the pa off for this) it eats him, burst of pa goes off right as im trying to turn it down before it hits level 2 and can move, that and the engineer food does it, now its level two.

That was a quick round.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Sat May 17, 2014 10:03 am #6452

I've been playing assistant a lot on high pop recently, and a lot of the time, once I get my all access from robbing the conosole or break into engineering for gloves, I notice the engine isn't set up and half to do it myself.

Even as antag I generally check engineering to make sure someone did their job, ans they often don't.

At least setting it up usually makes the AI love me which cones in handy when shitcurity beats me later.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sat May 17, 2014 10:20 am #6459

MrStonedOne wrote:One round the ce couldn't get the pa running, ai was talking about how he was fucking with wires on the pa, how she didn't know what he was doing.

Captain sees me running by between maints, decked out in full graysuit gear, gloves, engi hard hat, flashlight, tool belt, mutitool and screw driver in my hand and says HEY!, you look competent.

I come in and all of the tiles near the pa are crowbar'ed up the wiring's been completely redone, wires shooting off to corners than going no where, only engi is the ce, and hes hitting random parts of the pa with wires.

I run the screw bar on the middle part (the only one that doesn't tell you visually if its been closed) oh look, it hasn't,

The collectors were filled and the containment was up, so i tell the ce to try it. he does, it turns on, yay!.

I noticed the green bar was running low on one so i say oh shit, powers fucked, i turn the pa off, and run to go setup the pacman, in the middle of this i notice in my chat log that he said "I don't know what hes talking about, generators are all up, and the blue bar is full"

Turns out he had turned the pa back on and around the time it popped the generators turned off. He goes to fix it and gets sucked in, (hadn't turned the pa off for this) it eats him, burst of pa goes off right as im trying to turn it down before it hits level 2 and can move, that and the engineer food does it, now its level two.

That was a quick round.

Did you jobban the CE for being unable to set up the engine? Because that is literally the one thing that's supposed to seperate the CE from the rest of the engis.

Comrade Leo · Post by **Comrade Leo** » Sat May 17, 2014 12:37 pm #6469

Psyentific wrote: go for your departmental head instead of your usual slot, if only so you can pick up slack and/or we have more people capable of calling the shuttle.

I know me especially don't want the extra responsibility of being a head, and may ring true with others.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Sat May 17, 2014 1:42 pm #6476

Psy, you could always do engineering jobs. You only play cargo, one of the few jobs on the station that isnt needed.

Neerti · Post by **Neerti** » Sat May 17, 2014 6:51 pm #6513

We don't actually ban for incompetence.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sat May 17, 2014 7:03 pm #6516

Neerti wrote:We don't actually ban for incompetence.

Not even in command roles? Huh.

NikNakFlak wrote:Psy, you could always do engineering jobs. You only play cargo, one of the few jobs on the station that isnt needed.

I could, yeah, but I don't really find engineering fun. Cargo gets a lot of the same tools, and can do the job for them (Mining hardsuit, RCD/metalsheets), but patching breaches and fixing wires is boring. Creating an autism fort is also kinda pointless. The reason I played cargo when I was new was because it was easy - Push da crates. The reason I still play cargo is because cargo is stupidly robust if you know how to use it right.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Sat May 17, 2014 7:45 pm #6524

Psyentific wrote:I could, yeah, but I don't really find engineering fun. Cargo gets a lot of the same tools, and can do the job for them (Mining hardsuit, RCD/metalsheets), but patching breaches and fixing wires is boring. Creating an autism fort is also kinda pointless. The reason I played cargo when I was new was because it was easy - Push da crates. The reason I still play cargo is because cargo is stupidly robust if you know how to use it right.

That's why you play command roles. You got more stuff to do other than clicking.

That said, I should play some CE. Haven't played engi for a long time.

peoplearestrange · Sat May 17, 2014 7:48 pm

Durkel wrote:The biggest offender I've seen is someone going ((xDDDDD)) in fucking chat and That made my blood boil. .

at least they had the courtesy to put (( )) rather than just

etc in chat....

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sun May 18, 2014 10:10 am #6661

Durkel wrote:I blame the new player surge. Been seeing loads of easy questions, fuckups, and ooc in ic.The biggest offender I've seen is someone going ((xDDDDD)) in fucking chat and That made my blood boil. Engineering only really needs one player to baby them, which SHOULD be the CE. Then again, there have been plenty of times I've seen the CE admit he doesn't know how to set up the singularity and just hopes his team doesn't need him.

Pretty much fuck everything. if you don't want your round ruined in five minutes then play engineer and do it yourself.

I like playing CE just because it's a rather chill job and you usually have a few slaves to do shit for you so you can get drunk in the bar.

Antonkr · Post by **Antonkr** » Mon May 19, 2014 2:00 pm #7015

It's one thing if a player doesn't know what they are doing but if there is an obviously incompetent derelicting engineering team (especially the CE) I will take action against them by either getting them to actually do their job, or jobbans (typically if they are the CE). It's one thing to be incompetent but entirely another to fuck off without actually doing your initial set up, especially as the head of staff.

KingLouisXIV · Post by **KingLouisXIV** » Mon May 19, 2014 2:52 pm #7034

I haven't noticed it, but then again I've stopped playing Engineering as often because other roles are more fun.

To me personally, the rest of the station might as well not exist on round-start as an Engineer or CE, and I rush the Singularity. It really, REALLY grinds my gears when that one guyi'm guilty of this too for shits and giggles in low pop absolutely insists on not setting up the singularity at all, instead trying to wire the solars first. This almost never works in time for people not to bitch about power issues.

This makes me want to just lock in CE every round like I used to when I first started playing SS13. Only once I could set up the engine without a guide did I even allow myself to take the head position or move on to other roles.

Pybro · Post by **Pybro** » Mon May 19, 2014 3:02 pm #7042

I've been playing CE more, to ensure the engine starts. I make a note of everyone who helps setup the engine in SOME form. Setup the PA, fill the collectors, set the SMES, do the fields, man the PA. That's five jobs. Anyone who does not do one of these five jobs goes on the list. I forcibly demote them, leaving them utterly naked in the hall. Anyone I can't catch, I let the HoS and his hounds have their fun with them. Anyone who sets up solars is exempt from this, of course. Setting up the engine, or doing the solars, is all I ask.

You're free to hack into wherever, fuck off to space, or build whatever, so long as you setup the engine first.

Aurx · Post by **Aurx** » Mon May 19, 2014 5:30 pm #7069

KingLouisXIV wrote:It really, REALLY grinds my gears when that one guyi'm guilty of this too for shits and giggles in low pop absolutely insists on not setting up the singularity at all, instead trying to wire the solars first. This almost never works in time for people not to bitch about power issues.

The issue with rushing solars is with staff competency. If you have three other people who can go wire a solar effectively and efficiently, solar power can be online well before the first power alarm. But if you're alone in actually doing the solars, it WILL take too long.

Also, try telling the AI to turn off lights in unused areas. Lights are a HUGE power drain, and a station with the lights out takes a lot longer to drain the SMESes.

Kelenius · Post by **Kelenius** » Mon May 19, 2014 6:59 pm #7085

As someone who plays AI regularly, I can say that the problem is usually only present when there is one or none engineers. When there are at least two meatsacks with arms, most of the time I only need to open storage and sometimes configure SMES. If nobody is setting up the engine, let someone else do it. An assistant is easily convinced to do it (because there are gloves and toolbelts). HoP and captain both have access to engine. If the power fails, AI is just as much to blame as engineers.

That being said, I've seen CEs who go to telecomms and upload honk scripts without even opening the storage. If CE is present, and engineers need AI to open it, you deserve a job ban.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Tue May 20, 2014 1:46 am #7165

QM here, if there's no engineers I'll set up the engine. Just open emitter secure storage for me, so I can grab the emitters plasma canister. Would you like me to steal secure the disk and spare ID, too?

allura · Post by **allura** » Tue May 20, 2014 2:51 am #7192

unless krake comes back engineering is fucked

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue May 20, 2014 8:45 am #7299

Krake caused more problems than he solved in engineering

But he had so much broken english character especially when he played the 'french' version of himself as chef

Also protip on solars, instead of going back inside after they're wired just jump across the outside of the station to the next solar cluster, it's much faster. Bring wire snippets to toss if you fall off and you're golden. I can wire the solars easy as fuck in 10-15 minutes. The problem is, it doesn't solve any problems in the long run because convincing people not to set up the engine and do the solars instead is murder. The only time I do my solar wiring speedruns is on lowpop, usually before I log out for the night so I know that the ERPers are nice and safe and have power for the rest of the 3 hour shift.

callanrockslol · Wed May 21, 2014 6:00 am

It takes all of a minute to turn on the shields and the emitters, the same time to wire up the machine, just a bit more to fill the tanks and put them in the collectors.

Is it that hard to spend less than 5 minutes to set the round up to not fail horribly.

Also wire it straight into the powergrid every time to teach the assistants a lesson.

Quey · Post by **Quey** » Fri May 23, 2014 12:44 am #8231

I've seen way too many people get killed setting up the engine, once two in a day. Usually it's setting up the containment field, but occasionally it's dumping a plasma tank (and I've also seen the O2 tank dumped).

Seriously, why don't more people set up containment from the outside in? Pretty much everyone I've actively watched does some weird emitter dodging stuff or takes a circuitous route. If you just start on the far emitters and work your way in you can do it as fast as or faster than any other method and have zero chance of getting shot by an emitter. I've had people yell at me for suggesting that they do it this way, once ending in non-antag violence. All for caring about their safety and the efficient operation of the station.

That said, I've had plenty of rounds with a great engineering staff, but I'd have to agree that the proportion of bad engineers is too high.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Fri May 23, 2014 1:56 am #8254

or just go clockwise and have an equally 0 chance of being hit by an emitter
hint: turn on the emitters after you've passed them

Post by **oranges** » Fri May 23, 2014 2:59 am #8260

People aren't going to learn unless they try

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri May 23, 2014 3:56 am #8267

My personal tip is to turn on all the emitters, then turn on the fields from the -inside- of the containment field so you can do it super quick and you're shielded from the emitter lasers by the field generators. It's risky because you can get trapped but you have ample time if you practice it enough.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Fri May 23, 2014 4:36 am #8278

paprika wrote:My personal tip is to turn on all the emitters, then turn on the fields from the -inside- of the containment field so you can do it super quick and you're shielded from the emitter lasers by the field generators. It's risky because you can get trapped but you have ample time if you practice it enough.

This is my method - Emitters from the outside in, then fields from the inside out. Use the generators to shield you from the emitters, end on an inside corner so you don't get trapped. In all my times doing the engine, I've only been trapped once, and that's because I slipped when I wanted to make sure I turned on the generator.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Fri May 23, 2014 5:06 am #8288

or uh
just
do it clockwise
with a literal 0% chance of risk, unless you slip out into space somehow

srifenbyxp · Post by **srifenbyxp** » Fri May 23, 2014 7:03 am #8305

To expect people in this game to be competent is just silly.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri May 23, 2014 7:09 am #8311

miggles wrote:or uh
just
do it clockwise
with a literal 0% chance of risk, unless you slip out into space somehow

Clockwise starting from where?

420goslingboy69 · Fri May 23, 2014 7:11 am

Psyentific wrote: The reason I still play cargo is because cargo is stupidly robust if you know how to use it right.

thats a really sad reason

ColonicAcid · Post by **ColonicAcid** » Fri May 23, 2014 11:25 am #8345

Waiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.

So now being able to set up the engine makes you a competent engineer/CE?
Wow and I thought that was only 1/4 of the job! Also I laugh at the CE's who don't understand how Atmos works.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Fri May 23, 2014 11:38 am #8347

ColonicAcid wrote:Waiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.

So now being able to set up the engine makes you a competent engineer/CE?
Wow and I thought that was only 1/4 of the job! Also I laugh at the CE's who don't understand how Atmos works.

Yes, the standards are that low.

AseaHeru · Post by **AseaHeru** » Fri May 23, 2014 12:42 pm #8361

I dont know how the silly thing works yet...
Atmos that is.

Mostly because its so friggin slow to change.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Fri May 23, 2014 1:10 pm #8364

Do not forget telecommunications! Often times I, as the AI, end up fixing it on my own with the CE just standing there trying to link all the machines together. Engineering is a really technical job (which is good and realistic). Expect newbs! If you are a newb, ask for help! If you are experienced, do not be a jerk, help out and teach! For those arrogant few that think they know everything, just stand at the PA and wait for them to shock themselves on the field!

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri May 23, 2014 1:39 pm #8368

To be fair, 99% of all tcomms problems can be fixed by simply unlinking then relinking the four machines.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Fri May 23, 2014 9:19 pm #8438

paprika wrote:
miggles wrote:or uh
just
do it clockwise
with a literal 0% chance of risk, unless you slip out into space somehow
Clockwise starting from where?

..the airlock?

take this path and you'll never get hit
the trick is to turn on emitters after you walk past them.

this is counterclockwise but it works both ways

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri May 23, 2014 9:41 pm #8450

This looks like the emitter will shoot you as you walk in front of it. Walking in front of emitters at ALL is a bad idea, my pathing only requires you do it once, when it's turned off.

Spoiler:

Starting point is the top left emitter. I never turn on the field generators until all the emitters are online, so I can count each of the 8 generators to make sure they're all on.

420goslingboy69 · Sat May 24, 2014 5:46 am

Setting up the engine is not hard. You can do it without a hardsuit people pls. You don't need a strategy for it.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat May 24, 2014 5:53 am #8547

It's not a strategy, it's a habitual path people prefer to take for efficiency reasons. Getting the engine up quickly can be a big deal a lot of the time.

It's not about it being hard, it's about being sanic and doing your job properly.

Quey · Post by **Quey** » Sat May 24, 2014 7:14 am #8552

Right, there are other good methods. But the point is I still see people get shot. With so many good routes, or (what I thought was) just good common sense of not walking in front of active emitters, why are people still being shot? If it is really your first go, have someone show you or try it out on a test server. And REALLY, don't attack me if I try to keep you safe by suggesting you not risk getting shot.

I can understand if your common engineer doesn't know tcomms, and apparently I'm the only one able to set up the thermoelectric generator on ministation, but as long as you can reasonably help with the singularity and do SOMETHING to be useful during the round, I'm satisfied. I just get pissed when engies run off with hardsuits with hull breaches and can't figure out how to fix them. Or worse, play as insulated gloves + tools + high access assistants.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat May 24, 2014 7:40 am #8557

People try to time it right and run through before the emitter shoots, which is hilarious because >trying to have perfect timing in byond

ColonicAcid · Post by **ColonicAcid** » Sat May 24, 2014 9:27 am #8565

>Implying you can accurately decide when the game decides to have a cycle
when we find out the amount of time it really takes to do a cycle we will become gods.