[MRP] Remove spy from the config

[NoxVS]

I've been thinking about this for a while and I don't really see a good way to change the antagonist to fix it, so might as well just see about thoughts on removal. I think spies sort of run into the problem progtot has where it encourages constant chasing of objectives over trying to do anything unique. You can't stop to do anything interesting because that just cuts into time you could spend going after another bounty. It also runs into the issue where a constant stream of objectives gives them a constant stream of justifications to carve through the station, and it's not uncommon for it to feel like spies are so much more deadlier than most other antags because they effectively have infinite objectives they can point at when asked why they killed someone. It's hard to even take issue with it when it happens because they're just doing objectives. Overall it just feels like the role conflicts with RPR 5 too much, and I've seen way too many spies cause mass mayhem in pretty uninteresting ways yet I feel like I have no way I can justify intervening with the rules we have now.

[KingKuma]

I see where youre coming from with this. I will say - I do like the fact the rewards are on a time limit, as it makes me actually engage with being an antagonist, when I tend to be really really passive, and not actually... antagonize if that makes sense. I'm not going full bore and just using the fact I get a pack of syndicate playing cards as a free pass to go murder someone, but the actual time pressure of spy's toolkit is a mechanic I genuinely enjoy quite a bit, and if spy does get the axe, id hope that gets reused.

Also the randomly generated objectives can be really fun. I remember once having to convince a chaplain to not burn himself at the stake because i needed them to leave alive.

[TheBibleMelts]

i've already shared my thoughts directly with melbert on this, but it feels like it's just a codified tiding antagonist. which could be a cool concept if leaned more on as that - but that's not really how spy is currently flavored or focus-fired to be defined as. people just run around gaming their objectives because they see a ticking clock and their gamer loot at threat of expiring/being taken by someone else. i think(?) they were intended to give us another soft antagonist to work with, but i'd prefer a soft antagonist that creates more potential for storytelling or pacing than "guy is dashing around the station to steal a machine in your department".

funny enough, my favorite objectives of spies are the ones revolving around taking limbs or organs from people - maybe it could be reflavored purely as a repo: the genetic opera style thing where you're collecting somebodies debts with their body parts exclusively.

[KingKuma]

\funny enough, my favorite objectives of spies are the ones revolving around taking limbs or organs from people - maybe it could be reflavored purely as a repo: the genetic opera style thing where you're collecting somebodies debts with their body parts exclusively.

i could get behind this if said antag had a means of locating/accessing that person easily. I rarely take those objectives cause half the time finding and/or getting to the person takes longer than the reward is offered for. Trying to track down a shaft miner or assistant is not an easy task short of having a pinpointer.

[subject217]

Spy relies on the fact that the antag is valid and the expectation that people will validhunt too much for Manuel. People don't even report these antags a lot of the time, unless they happen to steal something you particularly cared about that you can't easily replace. Because people don't validhunt them the moment they hear that PDA scanning sound (which would be contrary to the Manuel rules and culture to be clear) a motivated spy can get a ton of inertia. With some okay RNG on items they can become a huge threat that is very hard to catch or stop for what seems by design to be a low-key antag.

The momentum part of it is the same as what was bad about ProgTot IMO. 50 minutes of prep -> I win. Not interesting for the server as a whole.

[TheLoLSwat]

The issue isn’t with spy inherently, it’s the fact that their rewards are terrible and don’t even make you feel like a spy. I am willing to bet that if their rewards were reworked with a focus on stealth / trickery / escaping fights spies would not only be way more fun but received much better (but alas, that’s a code change).

I’ve seen thermals as a reward like twice. I’ve been stuck with some extremely loud and obvious reward such as a bulldog shotgun or energy sword more times than I can remember and it sucks because you essentially are just traitor-lite with randomly assigned gear instead of a 20tc loadout


Spies SHOULD spend their rounds rushing to get objectives before their competitors, but it should be more spy-kids / mission impossible antics with mulligans and cardboard boxes and invisibility and sleepy pens instead of psycho killer who also likes to take things.

I don’t even think you have to adjust spies validity/restrictions to get to the desired outcome im talking about because the gear they get will influence how they approach the rest of the round and I don’t see someone playing as hyper-aggressively with just stealth gear

Spy needs to be reworked to only have 1/5 of their rewards be from stealing shit, and the other 4/5 are actual objectives like protect/attack/kidnap/plant a bug on someone/etc.

Shamelessly ripping from the post below because it’s an excellent suggestion that would also go a long way to restoring the “spy” feeling without changing too much. Planting bugs and kidnappings and whatever else they were doing on archer is peak The more I think about it, spy just seems unfinished

TLDR; a fix is better and I don’t think it would be too difficult (but it’s a code issue imo)

[Metek]

Spy needs to be reworked to only have 1/5 of their rewards be from stealing shit, and the other 4/5 are actual objectives like protect/attack/kidnap/plant a bug on someone/etc.

[Jacquerel]

what if after they did 15-20 tasks relating to attacking, kidnapping, or planting bugs they could summon a battlecruiser or get romerol or turn into a space dragon
I'm joking but I find the suggestion that spies would be better if we just turned them back into progression traitor a little confusing

I like the idea of refocusing their reward pool a little more

[ju45he]

What if spy objectives and rewards started off stealthy at the start of the round, but as objectives are completed the objectives get louder and the rewards more combat oriented?

[britgrenadier1]

Reinventing progtot in these discussions is funny. The issue with spies on mrp are the objectives are very open ended. Theres stuff like “Cause a station evacuation” and “Ensure no heads leave the station alive” in there. Either of those can justify killing anyone and everyone since mass casualty tends to get the shuttle called and there is nothing stopping people from cleaving through a department to get to a head of staff.

Maybe we should just rewrite RPR4 though because there tends to be fewer runaway antags when John chemist is allowed to snipe antags who they’ve only seen once.

[iamgoofball]

spies are literally fine idk what y'all are complaining about

[mrmelbert]

Refresh period and loot pool size should be configurable, and then I'd recommend the refresh period be bumped up on MRP / less high tier loot be doled out.

[bingusdingus]

I've said it before. Change Spy to be a Spy vs. Spy themed antag. Have one White Spy and one Black Spy (alternatively Red and Blue). The objectives are similar but spies have access to tools that can booby trap the things you need to steal that trigger when a Spy attempts to steal it with their PDA. You have a choice to steal something to get the reward, or to use a trap if you think the other Spy might go after it, there probably would be a way to disarm something if you think theres a trap, but destroys the item if you're wrong, so you can do a lot of mind games with each other like in the comic. So you have your objectives to get a score and increasingly powerful gear, but also an objective to weed out and kill the opposing Spy in order to win. The whole draw would be the collateral the booby traps cause that could range from annoying to extremely destructive that causes interesting things to happen in the round. It would also help if the Spies were given instructions to not directly harm non spies. You could add loads of fun references to Spy related media. The potential is there, it's just a very lazily implemented antag.

[mrmelbert]

I've said it before. Change Spy to be a Spy vs. Spy themed antag.

Your idea is neat and all but it doesn't especially pertain to policy discussion.

[MooCow12]

Alot of their loot doesnt even need to be antag oriented, id be happy with an rcd or a toolbelt or insuls from doing an objective, but obviously have other options incase i already have all of those things.

Instead its just weird gamer gear that doesnt even get me interested, oh an esword? no thanks i can already oneshot everyone.


having less gamer gear tools that make you valid on sight would also help them stay stealthy and lead to less situations where they need the policy shield.

[KingKuma]

having less gamer gear tools that make you valid on sight would also help them stay stealthy and lead to less situations where they need the policy shield.

Honestly? Yeah give me a DIY thermite kit, or a baggable spacesuit, or a red slime potion or something like that. Eswords are great, but theyre also a giant neon sign saying "VALID" pointing right at you. That's generally why i dont use them near as mundane weapons when I roll antag, as its a lot easier to talk your way out of having a pipebomb or stunprod than a clusterbang or powerfist.

[Sonnzer]

I think spy could be cooler if it leaned into the whole "spy" thing more.

I like the state that the objectives are in. I had a shift where someone had set up a concert for the crew, but I was a spy and had an objective to "halt all public gatherings". It opened up a nice avenue of play where I got to engage with their concert as an antagonist while also doing my objective.

I think that stealing things is fine, but I do slightly agree with the angle of possible prog-tot objectives. I think that there could be some sort of work put in to make it more than just "Kill Ian for 2 tc", which can be repetitive and not really be interesting for the crew at large. I *do* agree with maybe bugging objectives, possible target assassinations (I liked the calling cards), and overall activities that fit more with the actions you'd associate with a typical "spy".

[MatrixOne]

I was trying different antagonists recently and rolled spy for the first time in forever. I spent a long time talking to a secoff to try and get their donut box - my bounty. We talked and RPd in the interrogation room, and eventually I managed to get the donut box, I head back to base, try to scan it and... the objective had long since expired.

That was really disappointing, and I disabled it after that shift. I felt like I got punished for RP, for talking to people and trying to be social in this social game. It's an "AI open" kind of antagonist that feels annoying to interact with because they have zero reason to talk with you, they want to get in and get out. And it encourages this desperate fake RP that's super obvious, like, "No! I NEED MY PDA! CAN I GET MY PDA PLEASE?????" "I REALLY REALLY NEED THIS ITEM RIGHT NOW DONT BE A BITCH!!! AI OPEN!!!!"

I'm in favor of removing it or significantly reworking it

[Thranos]

The vast majority of spies tend to, as far as I've seen, go one of three ways:
-Sweaty speedrun for gamer gear, then go apeshit
-Normal crew but they can kill you, R&D gets illegal tech suspiciously fast
-;AI OPEN I NEED THIS- ghosts when their PDA is confiscated, if they survive that long

Rarely if at all do they RP anything related to their antag status, let alone the premade objectives.
There are obviously exceptions (see above from Sonnzer), but mostly it's just treated like a neutered progtot.
I've personally tried to do interesting or engaging things with it, but short of custom objectives and getting lucky with the reward RNG, it's not all that feasible.

[drpupper]

everytime i've gotten spy i don't really know what to do roleplay wise to, you know, roleplay. i'm in support of removing spy, but the one thing i DO like about spy is the tension of sharing targets. i think somehow capitalizing on that would be a good way to keep spy around, but i'm not sure how.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I have had Spy disabled for months now, it always feels like a wasted antag roll. It feels like the same problem Thief had to me. Additionally, I have never seen anyone do anything interesting with Spy, they just steal the MediDrobe wordlessly so that way they can get a magazine of 9mm ammo when they dont even have a gun to use it.

So yeah, please remove spy.

[mrmelbert]

With https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/90825 merged headmins can configure their potency as they please