Make DNA infused humans considered non human in policy if they show non human features

[Ezel]

Currently they are ruled as human, now i think making them non human is a more of a intresting dynamic if they show non human features, this would allow for more specism potentional, for humans who throw their "humanity" away by infusing their dna with other things may it be a rat or a fish or whatever it may be.

Felinids are people who used to be human till the "cloning incident" which nanotrasen ruled them non human, i think this would be very close to that incident and thats why i think they shouldn't be considered "human" personally by cyborgs/ai's or even other things

[Jacquerel]

DNA infuser organs have a tendency to add an examine string to people with the infusion, but they're often a little esoteric and don't necessarily scream "this person is not a human".

"Their neck has strange gills" and "Their skin has visible hard plates growing from within" are reasonably good giveaways (although the latter also only prints if the examinee is not wearing a shirt), but "They seem unable to stand still" does not clearly communicate that someone has nonhuman DNA.

If this was decided we would probably want to make associated code changes so that this showed up more reliably on medical scanners, otherwise it can quite often be very ambiguous.


...or maybe cyborg medical scanners can already identify unusual organs I don't remember if that is default behaviour or not.

[Dax Dupont]

Makes sense honestly, as long as Jacquerel points out above it's visible.

[ekaterina]

Genetic modification deriving from animals making someone non-human makes no more sense than someone with non-animal genetic modifications being non-human would.
Pressure adaptation doesn't make you non-human, why should infusions?

[Jacquerel]

Felinids are humans with genetic modification deriving from animals and their designation as a different nonhuman species is entirely political rather than based in the normal definition of the word species, this is a proposal to square that circle as something that can happen in-round I suppose.

[ekaterina]

Felinids are humans with genetic modification deriving from animals and their designation as a different nonhuman species is entirely political rather than based in the normal definition of the word species, this is a proposal to square that circle as something that can happen in-round I suppose.

Counterpoint: they meow instead of saying.

[Jacquerel]

Felinids are humans with genetic modification deriving from animals and their designation as a different nonhuman species is entirely political rather than based in the normal definition of the word species, this is a proposal to square that circle as something that can happen in-round I suppose.

Counterpoint: they meow instead of saying.

It's their tongue which makes them do that, if you get a rat tongue from DNA infusion you squeak instead of saying. Carp infusion can also change your speech verb.
If a felinid gets a human tongue implanted they can pass as human over the radio.

[ekaterina]

Felinids are humans with genetic modification deriving from animals and their designation as a different nonhuman species is entirely political rather than based in the normal definition of the word species, this is a proposal to square that circle as something that can happen in-round I suppose.

Counterpoint: they meow instead of saying.

It's their tongue which makes them do that, if you get a rat tongue from DNA infusion you squeak instead of saying. Carp infusion can also change your speech verb.
If a felinid gets a human tongue implanted they can pass as human over the radio.

If we surgically remove a felinid's cat ears and tail, and implant a human tongue, is the felinid now human (as far as the AI is concerned)?

[Jacquerel]

I think they will still display as a felinid if scanned with a medical scanner, so there is something immutable in code about felinids that is not true about dna infusion which does not do this
They'd be otherwise very difficult to detect though

[conrad]

If we surgically remove a felinid's cat ears and tail, and implant a human tongue, is the felinid now human (as far as the AI is concerned)?

The alien of Theseus.

Strictly speaking if the AI can't tell, didn't act in bad faith and treated them like a human it's fine. Skill issue ain't against the rules.

But to answer your question, no.

[spookuni]

The current policy is that anything that a health analyser says is human is human and anything that it says isn't human is not human.

Given that this policy exists to ensure that there's a reliable in-game way to resolve questions one way or another, I would argue that if you want to see this change it would be better to push it as a code change to bring it into alignment with existing policy, rather than changing policy such that we lose that baseline easy yes/no resolution.

(I'm fairly sure infusion humans still read as human to analysers currently, but if I'm misremembering and they don't this thread is redundant anyway)

[Ezel]

(I'm fairly sure infusion humans still read as human to analysers currently, but if I'm misremembering and they don't this thread is redundant anyway)

They show up as human.

[spookuni]

They show up as human.

Then yeah, I'd suggest that the best way to accomplish this would be with a PR.

Though having a successful thread backing a PR might make it easier to pass? I dunno I'm not a maintainer Jacq can tell me to fuck off

[Jacquerel]

They show up as human.

Then yeah, I'd suggest that the best way to accomplish this would be with a PR.

Though having a successful thread backing a PR might make it easier to pass? I dunno I'm not a maintainer Jacq can tell me to fuck off

I would give a resounding "no idea" because the juristicion on deciding what is and isn't human is a very murky one

[spookuni]

They show up as human.

Then yeah, I'd suggest that the best way to accomplish this would be with a PR.

Though having a successful thread backing a PR might make it easier to pass? I dunno I'm not a maintainer Jacq can tell me to fuck off

I would give a resounding "no idea" because the juristicion on deciding what is and isn't human is a very murky one

That murky area of policy where historically we've let the codebase decide because the codebase has been pretty trustworthy about making reasonable choices re: what is and isn't human

[NecromancerAnne]

It's definitely one of those weird points where I think it's a good idea for everyone to be on the same page as to who and what is human. I'm personally all for infused humans benefiting from the set bonus to be considered nonhuman. Similar to hulk and so on.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

In my opinion, it should just be if you're clearly an unaltered human visibly, then you're a human. If the AI and silicons determine you're a non-human and can articulate their reasoning if challenged (They had a cat-tail, they had visible gills, they had a plasmaman arm, whatever), then that's their call, and sorry about your luck that the AI killed you, but you can't "win" every round of ss13. Fundamentally, "Whatever the medical scanner says" isn't a good way to determine things because the AI can't use a medical scanner in the first place.

And if you're unlucky enough to run into a bioscrambler and got a plasmaman arm that way, but don't care to go to medbay to get it fixed, that's your fault for caring so little about your humanity that you didn't address the matter. And if no one is there to help you at medbay, again, sorry, you can't "win" every round.

[spookuni]

In my opinion, it should just be if you're clearly an unaltered human visibly, then you're a human. If the AI and silicons determine you're a non-human and can articulate their reasoning if challenged (They had a cat-tail, they had visible gills, they had a plasmaman arm, whatever), then that's their call, and sorry about your luck that the AI killed you, but you can't "win" every round of ss13. Fundamentally, "Whatever the medical scanner says" isn't a good way to determine things because the AI can't use a medical scanner in the first place.

And if you're unlucky enough to run into a bioscrambler and got a plasmaman arm that way, but don't care to go to medbay to get it fixed, that's your fault for caring so little about your humanity that you didn't address the matter. And if no one is there to help you at medbay, again, sorry, you can't "win" every round.

In terms of actual enforcement, the line is a lot more variable - there are absolutely things you can do as a human that makes it reasonable that an AI would mistake you for a non-human. There have been past rulings in complaints and appeals both that doing things like strapping cat ears on and *meow-ing / pretending to be a felinid, and making no reasonable attempt to communicate your (actual) human status to an AI makes it fair for the AI (lacking any reason to check random felinids) to assume that you're not human.

What the policy regarding the med scanner does it set an objective guiding line that can be easily referred to in-game by both players and admins as to what the actual status of a character is one way or another, let's admins gently direct AI players to ways to resolve situations where they're unsure, and prevents the kind of bad-faith (server) rules lawyering that leads to bloated silicon policy.

Part of this is that it's intended that humans can in fact alter themselves while retaining human status, humans with cyberlimbs are meant to be human, humans with singular limbs swapped out are meant to be human, whether it's a plasmaman limb or an ethereal limb or another human limb. That there is a wavy line on the spot is intended and yes it is intended that sometimes a human will find themselves in a situation where an AI would reasonably make a mistake, but it is also strongly not the intent that an AI who is bound by the enforced foundation of their existential code to protect and not harm humans could, with no actual requirement to be correct, just shrug and go 'eh that limb looks pretty purple not my problem'.

[Maxipat]

I think if a human has visible non-human features from infusions like gills, cat ears, fox ears etc. it should be considered non-human to ai. We already have the opposite of it in policy, ai has to assume someone's human until proven non-human and I don't think we should force ai to go check now with a scanner whether this clearly looking felinid fellow is an actual felinid or human with cat infusions.

E: Especially that I don't think AI can actually use a scanner without a borg

[Cobby]

I agree that there needs to be a way ingame to sift thru the argument so there is an objective standard simply because I dont like that there could be variation in what someone determines as visible. Is it sprite only? Examine text? What if its partially covered via clothes and a new AI player doesnt see it since they arent sure what to be looking for? The closest thing to scan for this IS the medical scanner.

If an AI has to make a hasty call because of how the round goes and acted in good faith but ends up being wrong, I wouldnt want them banned for it or really even noted since its within the purview of the game that mistakes happen unless the game itself gives the AI a tool to scan for humanity.

I would most definitely not use examples like hulks to justify a decision in either direction because the reason hulk is nonhuman is purely from a gameplay perspective (theyre a pain for AIs to handle), with the lore reason tacked on for the overtly immersive-craving. It was not implemented with intention to set a standard and was implemented in fact to be a unique exception to the rule, and should remain such.

[Maxipat]

I agree that there needs to be a way ingame to sift thru the argument so there is an objective standard simply because I dont like that there could be variation in what someone determines as visible. Is it sprite only? Examine text? What if its partially covered via clothes and a new AI player doesnt see it since they arent sure what to be looking for? The closest thing to scan for this IS the medical scanner..

I'd say sprite and examine only, if it's covered then ai has to assume humanity until proven non-human since that's what we already do. AI isn't forced to species check people right now and shouldn't in the future. If that's what the policy thread is about then I'm against forcing players to check, but what I got from it we're discussing about dehumanising genetic mutants (just like felinids are)

[Ezel]

I don't want AI's to species check people i just want to set a finer guidelines of what should be considered human and non human whats the difference between felinids and them? why is A considered non human and B still a human

[kinnebian]

Id like to keep it simple as and I agree with spook. If youre concerned whether something is non-human, use the scanner. If human, yes- if non-human, no. I think mutants should be non-human in code, especially considering people with flight potions are also made non-human.

[GPeckman]

especially considering people with flight potions are also made non-human.

This is no longer the case in either code or policy

[kinnebian]

especially considering people with flight potions are also made non-human.

This is no longer the case in either code or policy

Slipped my mind, my bad. Probably should happen again if we rule this as such.

[Cobby]

I'd say sprite and examine only, if it's covered then ai has to assume humanity until proven non-human since that's what we already do. AI isn't forced to species check people right now and shouldn't in the future. If that's what the policy thread is about then I'm against forcing players to check, but what I got from it we're discussing about dehumanising genetic mutants (just like felinids are)

Sorry Im saying regardless of the decision here, there needs to be a way ingame that literally gives them a human/nothuman without requiring I read the 50 bullet points in some policy thread to play a role while im getting the hang of it (I assume this isnt going to be a problem for the guys who have thousands of hours on their belt). The REQUIREMENT to check is not necessarily what im advocating for, but the ability TO check ingame without having to laundry list "ok this person is a human, now I need to go to section 32 on my second monitor to see if this organ/limb makes them nonhuman but doing so quickly so I dont get called rogue for not opening the door." Visibility and what constitutes highly visible is subjective (some more obvious than others), especially when it can be more difficult to differentiate features on a small sprite and Id take issue with the idea someone can get banned for not seeing something the admin believes they should have especially if the character is moving and theyre suppose to find a limb that can be hidden with a specific rotation. I cant remember if the AI can examine outside of their core, I think it may have been PRd but I cant remember

I guess that goes into the topic of should we even have what is/isnt human threads on PD or PRs but yeah prob a different discussion.

So to return it back to the topic, I think if there shouldnt be any changes if theyre going to break that standard. Cybernetics and "nonhuman" parts are still on a human, theyre just a human with these particular parts. This seems like the most reasonable take for me since the reverse also stays true, a lizard doesnt become a human simply by putting on a human arm. Even the title alludes to this line of thinking by calling them DNA infused humans, they are still human just DNA infused. To me it makes more sense to take on a more gamified definition of a species (or how the game world outputs what species something is) for the sake of player understanding than to parlor talk on end about how this would play out as if it were the real world with an actual robot and not a player behind the screen who can get removed from the game for not aligning on the subject.

[Maxipat]

I'd say sprite and examine only, if it's covered then ai has to assume humanity until proven non-human since that's what we already do. AI isn't forced to species check people right now and shouldn't in the future. If that's what the policy thread is about then I'm against forcing players to check, but what I got from it we're discussing about dehumanising genetic mutants (just like felinids are)

Sorry Im saying regardless of the decision here, there needs to be a way ingame that literally gives them a human/nothuman without requiring I read the 50 bullet points in some policy thread to play a role while im getting the hang of it (I assume this isnt going to be a problem for the guys who have thousands of hours on their belt). The REQUIREMENT to check is not necessarily what im advocating for, but the ability TO check ingame without having to laundry list "ok this person is a human, now I need to go to section 32 on my second monitor to see if this organ/limb makes them nonhuman but doing so quickly so I dont get called rogue for not opening the door." Visibility and what constitutes highly visible is subjective (some more obvious than others), especially when it can be more difficult to differentiate features on a small sprite and Id take issue with the idea someone can get banned for not seeing something the admin believes they should have especially if the character is moving and theyre suppose to find a limb that can be hidden with a specific rotation. I cant remember if the AI can examine outside of their core, I think it may have been PRd but I cant remember

I guess that goes into the topic of should we even have what is/isnt human threads on PD or PRs but yeah prob a different discussion.

So to return it back to the topic, I think if there shouldnt be any changes if theyre going to break that standard. Cybernetics and "nonhuman" parts are still on a human, theyre just a human with these particular parts. This seems like the most reasonable take for me since the reverse also stays true, a lizard doesnt become a human simply by putting on a human arm. Even the title alludes to this line of thinking by calling them DNA infused humans, they are still human just DNA infused. To me it makes more sense to take on a more gamified definition of a species (or how the game world outputs what species something is) for the sake of player understanding than to parlor talk on end about how this would play out as if it were the real world with an actual robot and not a player behind the screen who can get removed from the game for not aligning on the subject.

I did think ai can examine people but as i mentioned earlier, i dont know if they can healthscan people from the core either (think they don't?). We do run in this issue already though, i remember we had an appeal where a captain that wore fake ears and used emotes to speak in "meows" was taken as a nonhuman and thus ai ignored them. If i recall correctly, it was ruled that if someone is trying to pretend looking like a non-human convincingly enough, AI can ignore them just like they would a non-human, since ai players are just humans and we don't force them to be omniscient all-remembering astral creatures that memorize entire medical records for every shift (or scan every person before responding to them). Also we run into issue with cat infusions for example, where they give you everything that felinid has (ears, tail, meow speech too i think), but it still retains their human status per health scanner, which i think is completely unreasonable. Also im not sure why we're talking about bans for the ai for ignoring someone that looks exactly like a felinid/plasmeme/whatever, if someone ahelped that "reee ai ignores asimov" and i go orbit them and their entire say logs is pretending to be a non-human and them looking nonhuman im gonna laugh in their face and or possibly note them for banbaiting.

Im adamantly against xeno-limbs making you non-human, i think it's taking the thread intent too far? What i got from the intent is that Ezel wants to make so that if you have cat infusions/fox infusions/shark infusions which VISIBLY gives you a tail and/or ears ai can ignore you as you're no longer a human, which is i think way more intuitive for ai players. Since as you said it, i don't want to force ai to go find a checklist saying that "uh oh, this person with a fish tail flopping around the station is in fact human", since visibly looking like a non-human (not one limb replaced) should dehumanize you.


Agreed that it is something that would be nice to see a code change to go with this policy though, so that scanner in fact reflects this (proposed) reality.



EDIT: Found the appeal i was mentioning, it was apparently a complaint but it's in appeals subforum viewtopic.php?p=584170&hilit=cat+ears#p584170 , i misremembered details (how felinids didnt have meow tongue back then) bcs it's ancient, but i think point still holds.

[Ezel]

What i got from the intent is that Ezel wants to make so that if you have cat infusions/fox infusions/shark infusions which VISIBLY gives you a tail and/or ears ai can ignore you as you're no longer a human, which is i think way more intuitive for ai players. Since as you said it, i don't want to force ai to go find a checklist saying that "uh oh, this person with a fish tail flopping around the station is in fact human", since visibly looking like a non-human (not one limb replaced) should dehumanize you.

Agreed that it is something that would be nice to see a code change to go with this policy though, so that scanner in fact reflects this (proposed) reality.

Thats exactly how i want it yeah! and not anything else

[Cobby]

Im adamantly against xeno-limbs making you non-human, i think it's taking the thread intent too far? What i got from the intent is that Ezel wants to make so that if you have cat infusions/fox infusions/shark infusions which VISIBLY gives you a tail and/or ears ai can ignore you as you're no longer a human, which is i think way more intuitive for ai players. Since as you said it, i don't want to force ai to go find a checklist saying that "uh oh, this person with a fish tail flopping around the station is in fact human", since visibly looking like a non-human (not one limb replaced) should dehumanize you.

EDIT: Found the appeal i was mentioning, it was apparently a complaint but it's in appeals subforum viewtopic.php?p=584170&hilit=cat+ears#p584170 , i misremembered details (how felinids didnt have meow tongue back then) bcs it's ancient, but i think point still holds.

I think my previous post also speaks to infusions, or anything where we are relying on a part of the character being visible to make a potentially quick decision. Underlined is post edits :p

Visibility and what constitutes highly visible is subjective (some more obvious than others), especially when it can be more difficult to differentiate features on a small sprite and Id take issue with the idea someone can get banned for not seeing something the admin believes they should have especially if the character is moving and theyre suppose to find a feature that can be hidden/obfuscated with a specific rotation or clothing setup.

Also Im not sure that appeal entirely fits here, I think the crux of the issue wasnt that the person had cat ears alone but rather that this particular individual played a well known cat static, proceeded to roll captain with the exact same character but changed their species to human (no new hair style, color, no new behaviors, literally a 1:1 but human), decided to obfuscate it by wearing cat cosmetics, and then got surprised they were killed. Frankly it was bordering on ban baiting tbh and iirc I was half attempted to make a policy about disallowing you from playing human character copies of your nonhuman (specifically felinid) to get around the restriction.

[Ezel]

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/90661

[Ezel]

The PR got merged glory to Nanotrasen and their human supremancy

[TheRex9001]

Due to that prs merging DNA infused humans are now non-human in silicon policy, in general our term will bend to the codebase on matters of non-human/human and how the mediscanner determines it.