Round Removal

[Capsandi]

Hello,
Keep responses succinct.
QUESTION FONT GO!

Should a player expect the possibility to be removed from the round when they are killed?
What percentage of rounds in which a player joins should they be purposefully irretrievably killed by an antagonist(round removal)?
What percentage of crew in any given round should face the possibility of round removal?
What percentage of crew in any given round should be round removed?
What are your thoughts on those "forget who killed you" rules found in other servers?
What are your thoughts on the capacity for the admin team to handle an expanded ghost role roster insofar as increasing the ability for irretrievable players to rejoin the round?
If I look into the mirror and the aussie doctor from house md stares back, who doth stare back from your mirror?
What percentage of rounds in which a player joins should they feel that they personally lost as a non-antagonist role?

[kinnebian]

Hello,
Keep responses succinct.
QUESTION FONT GO!

Should a player expect the possibility to be removed from the round when they are killed?
What percentage of rounds in which a player joins should they be purposefully irretrievably killed by an antagonist(round removal)?
What percentage of crew in any given round should face the possibility of round removal?
What percentage of crew in any given round should be round removed?
What are your thoughts on those "forget who killed you" rules found in other servers?
What are your thoughts on the capacity for the admin team to handle an expanded ghost role roster insofar as increasing the ability for irretrievable players to rejoin the round?
If I look into the mirror and the aussie doctor from house md stares back, who doth stare back from your mirror?
What percentage of rounds in which a player joins should they feel that they personally lost as a non-antagonist role?

Hello Capsandi!

ANSWER FONT:
1: Yes. This is just a fundamental fact of the game we are playing and the way it's designed.
2: Its hard to put an exact number on it, but I would say roughly 5% seems about right. Its not incredibly rare as to keep it a real fear- but should be rare enough that it's not incredibly frustrating.
3: Percentage of crew facing the possibility of a round removal is realistically a 100%- Including antagonists. Everyone's a suspect, everyone's a potential victim. Even antagonists face the threat of being executed by security.
4: Percentage of crew round removed.. It heavily depends on how many antagonists there are. Green shift? Hopefully none. A chaotic Nukie round? I'd say a good 20-30% of crew will be lost somewhere in the void.
5: They usually don't work- because IRL, you wont forget who killed you. Even subconsciously, you will probably avoid that person to the best of your ability. I appreciate the fact that a lite version may be applicable to MRP- and I understand that it encourages Round Removal. Ultimately I don't think its incredibly viable, but I'd be willing to trial run it on Manny.
6: I can't speak to the readiness of the admin team or as a representative of the admin team, but Personally I would feel up to the challenge. I do think that the current ghost content is a satiable amount [especially with death-match] - But I can understand a want for more.
7: Paul Giamatti. He stares at me from my mirror.
8: I'm not entirely sure the meaning of the question- but the ultimate goal of playing an antag is to have fun. If you ran into shit luck or missed a crucial gunshot, all I can say is better luck next time- wishing you well. Pointing to rule 10 for that one.

Thanks for your questions!

[TheRex9001]

I would elaborate more but this is a TON of questions so:
In order
Yes, you should expect the possibility of being round removed when killed, it won't always happen which is a good thing but it CAN happen and you should be prepared for that.

For all the percentage questions, I think its dumb to give a flat percentage or w/e since it will vary a lot between jobs/pops/whos online but if I were to say one. 50-75%, 25-50%, 10-35% or something like that, antags should have a good chance to round remove you in their antics or to keep said antics hidden, a bunch of crew should be faced with something that could potentially result in round removal and less than that amount should be round removed.

I hate forget who killed you rules, they're a headache to enforce and I do not like them from a gameplay point of view. I'd rather you get round removed and have to respawn on a different character and forget EVERYTHING over dying and specifically forgetting who killed you, its bad.

I think we can handle it, just up to a code side to make it easier to manage, through for example huds for people retrieved from such a method.

Both.

0%, you cannot "lose" in a roleplaying game, you shouldn't feel as if you "lost", losing is not dying. If I were to say what actually losing in this game is, it is when you aren't having fun and I don't want people to not have fun playing this game.

[xzero314]

"Should a player expect the possibility to be removed from the round when they are killed?"

Yes. Even on MRP, any death from an antagonist could lead to Round Removal. If you mess with somebody badly and enough times they might even be justified to round remove you as a non-antagonist. Its situation and escalation dependent.

"What percentage of rounds in which a player joins should they be purposefully irretrievably killed by an antagonist(round removal)?
What percentage of crew in any given round should face the possibility of round removal?
What percentage of crew in any given round should be round removed?"

I have no way to give you an answer for this. An individuals game knowledge, ability to click other spess man, general attitude about keeping themself alive, and the state of the round they join all vary and change the answer.
Sometimes you just die. Sometimes dynamic goes with 90 threat and most people die. Sometimes you get a green shift where the only deaths were brawls and the shaft mining team.

"What are your thoughts on those "forget who killed you" rules found in other servers?"

It would be a pretty large step up in the minimum "Required Roleplay" of every player.
Currently we have a few "YOU MUST FORGET WHAT JUST HAPPENED TO YOU" events. The two main ones are magically inclined with Heretic and Cult. The other one being Revolution deconversion. I believe you only remember the
person who converted you. Fact check me on that there if that's wrong. All of these happen after an antag gets you is the common theme. I
I have no strong opinion for or against death forget mechanics myself but I am concerned about the extra "responsibility" it would put on every player.

"What are your thoughts on the capacity for the admin team to handle an expanded ghost role roster insofar as increasing the ability for irretrievable players to rejoin the round?

My own personal opinion on ghost roles: I like them they are cool and fun. but I don't like it when they can be used as a second life or heavily impact the round.
Recovered crew are a good exception to what I just said. I like recovered crew they are cool.
Charlie Station ai messing with the station or, somebody picking the Icemoon hermit then picking fights and bombing the station sucks. But those are things I think admins are well equipped to take aim at the knees over.
More ghost roles is probably fine? But this is something that might be falling into the coder domain which we dare not tread.

I am in my mirror and hey... I look pretty good.

"What percentage of rounds in which a player joins should they feel that they personally lost as a non-antagonist role?"
Zero. Its not a game of the station vs the antags. Its a sandbox roleplaying game. You cant win or lose.

[RaveRadbury]

I think these stats are hard to quantify or qualify so I'm gonna lean on the Pareto principle.

• Should a player expect the possibility to be removed from the round when they are killed?
  Yes. Round removal is a fundamental part of SS13 and a meaningful risk in every shift.
  
• What percentage of rounds in which a player joins should they be purposefully irretrievably killed by an antagonist(round removal)?
  20%. Round removal should feel significant but not inevitable,just enough to keep stakes high without feeling arbitrary.
  
• What percentage of crew in any given round should face the possibility of round removal?
  80%. Unless the station is totally peaceful, most players should feel at least some risk.
  
• What percentage of crew in any given round should be round removed?
  20%. Not everyone needs to die, but someone probably will. The drama of survival matters.
  
• What are your thoughts on those "forget who killed you" rules found in other servers?
  I like the idea, but it should never be a hard rule. It has to be a community value, not an enforced policy. Encouraging it is good, but it should never be a bannable offense.
  
• What are your thoughts on the capacity for the admin team to handle an expanded ghost role roster insofar as increasing the ability for irretrievable players to rejoin the round?
  If MRP embraces slower pacing and less of a focus on mechanical optimization, then some form of rejoining with a different static could be considered. This could increase engagement while still respecting round stakes.
  
• If I look into the mirror and the aussie doctor from house md stares back, who doth stare back from your mirror?
  An old man in rusty armor fighting a windmill with a lance
  
• What percentage of rounds in which a player joins should they feel that they personally lost as a non-antagonist role?
  20%. Losing should feel possible and meaningful, but not the default experience.

[Maxipat]

• Should a player expect the possibility to be removed from the round when they are killed?
  Yes, i think it's inevitable part of the game, though we should try explore ways to bring them back to the round, whether as ghost roll antagonists or with the nice (and underused) mechanic where you can order bodies from cargo to heal up.
  
  
• What percentage of rounds in which a player joins should they be purposefully irretrievably killed by an antagonist(round removal)?
  
• What percentage of crew in any given round should face the possibility of round removal?
  
• What percentage of crew in any given round should be round removed?
  I don't think those questions are answerable, since the end results are both out of hands of headmins and dependant on antagonist types and players playing them.
  
  
• What are your thoughts on those "forget who killed you" rules found in other servers?
  I don't see a logical reason as to why you'd have sudden memory loss of what happened before getting killed, but i do see the point why it's implemented. Lack of such rules basically pushes antagonists to either play loud or round remove people, since only one person getting revived and snitching on them is enough to completely kill the antag round. This is why heretics (which are meant to be stealth until not) have the "you forget who killed you" part. I do think it's ultra awkward for the player that "forgot" though, so i'm not really keen on implementing it towards all deaths and just keep it to heretics.
  
  
• What are your thoughts on the capacity for the admin team to handle an expanded ghost role roster insofar as increasing the ability for irretrievable players to rejoin the round?
  I think admins are competent enough to handle ghost roles, they usually have to follow their flavor text and thats about it. Ghostroles are such a small fraction of all situations we need admin oversight that it shouldn't be a problem, no matter how big the roster is (since it actually would depend on how many players want to play them). We should though add an icon or some sort of indication for admins that the player is in control of a ghostrole spawn, since it's often confusing and requires niche log reading or very good game knowledge to figure it out (though its a code venue, not something i can run for as headmin)
  
  
• If I look into the mirror and the aussie doctor from house md stares back, who doth stare back from your mirror?
  OI HOUSE WE NEED TO CURE THIS PATIENT
  
  
• What percentage of rounds in which a player joins should they feel that they personally lost as a non-antagonist role?
  I don't think player should ever feel like losing as non-antagonist role, since there's no "win" condition for such (same applies for antagonist roles). We should strive for players to feel like "winning" is the story they created during the round and having fun. Some people do think that "win" = getting safely back to centcomm though again, that's too player-dependant for me to properly estimate the percentage

[Jackraxxus]

Hello,
Keep responses succinct.
QUESTION FONT GO!

Should a player expect the possibility to be removed from the round when they are killed?
What percentage of rounds in which a player joins should they be purposefully irretrievably killed by an antagonist(round removal)?
What percentage of crew in any given round should face the possibility of round removal?
What percentage of crew in any given round should be round removed?
What are your thoughts on those "forget who killed you" rules found in other servers?
What are your thoughts on the capacity for the admin team to handle an expanded ghost role roster insofar as increasing the ability for irretrievable players to rejoin the round?
If I look into the mirror and the aussie doctor from house md stares back, who doth stare back from your mirror?
What percentage of rounds in which a player joins should they feel that they personally lost as a non-antagonist role?

1. Yeah, the game has no stakes otherwise. I see the game as a TTRPG, right? I think Pathfinder would be a lot less fun if the GM said "When you all die we'll just have a do-over" or "When you die I'll just bring you back don't worry." 'Course Raise dead / Resurrect / Reincarnation are all in the system, there's no guarantee the party has them, and especially if they TPK it's unlikely they'll come back. I think their actions should have consequences. If what the players did doesn't matter might as well write a book etc.

For 2, 3 and 4, I think all that matters is that it differs round-to-round. I like diversity in my rounds. If one round 90% of players die to war ops and stay dead, then next round it's a greenshift and only 1 guy is removed cuz he fell into the engine like a doofus, I'm smiling. I think an exception could be made for lowpop, I think admins should feel permitted (and maybe even be encouraged) to pod back players who are RR'd by non-player-related things. Like sending someone who fell into the engine back as a husk, or podding a miner to medbay. Medbay players might even appreciate being given a case on lowpop, that's their job content right there. In my personal ideal peak preem cinema round, 100% of players face the possibility of round removal. Story's no good without threats and all that, but by the time the shuttle docks at centcom maybe 30% - 35% of players are dead, with a reasonable fraction of the survivors being people who were revived.

5. Not sure a rule like that fits with /tg/. I'd be willing to let it happen on MRP if someone else really wanted it, but it's not something I'd push for myself.

6. I like the cargo revivable corpses, I saw them a lot when they were first implemented but at least on Manuel after a long while of no one ever taking them I think people stopped reviving them. Be cool if code-wise there was automatic trigger that like after X (X could vary between rounds) deaths every death has Y chance (So it's harder to metagame) of sending cargo a free corpse or three. But that's code so not the headmins' thing. As for more ghost roles, personally I'm not a fan but if we could truly enshrine that ghost roles have 0 rights in an incredibly one-sided and intentionally unfair ruling I'm sure we could handle a bunch.

7. the chad gamer wojak

8. Objectively? Take the % of rounds with ops and cult, and halve it for a 50% cult/ops winrate and boom there ya go. Subjectively, the belief that being dead / stranded at roundend means that you lost? 20-25%. Subjectively, with the belief that you only lost if you didn't have fun? Ideally 0%. More realistically I think 3%-5% is a good target.

I guess as a head / sec u could count revs too but idk if that's a loss for the average layman non-antag.

[iansdoor]

Should a player expect the possibility to be removed from the round when they are killed?

Yes, sometimes you die in unfortunate place with the lack of suit sensors or shredded sensors. Its not on the antag to throw you in the most optimal spot to be revived, or remember to turn up your suit sensors, but depending if you are asking LRP vs MRP. MRP just can't go out of their way to space you unless you are their target and or have attempted to seriously harm them. I think a small o2 tank vs E-mcsword face, E-mcswordy should drop you but what else do you have to offer them. Answer is nothing cause you were attacking a terrible weapon. *

What percentage of rounds in which a player joins should they be purposefully irretrievably killed by an antagonist(round removal)?
What percentage of crew in any given round should face the possibility of round removal?
What percentage of crew in any given round should be round removed?
What percentage of rounds in which a player joins should they feel that they personally lost as a non-antagonist role?

I know you asked for some %, this is more of the feels of a round. Some folks are okay with being RR while others are not. If there is no fight at all and its basically one sided, then its mostly sloppy round and I would hope the antagonist called the shuttle as a kind gesture.

What are your thoughts on those "forget who killed you" rules found in other servers?

Sometimes, it plays out weirdly, I think that you roleplaying a foggy moment is better. I mention this to keep yourself from BLURTING WHAT YOU SAW AS A GHOST. Because realistic, playing a second life or using meta ghost knowledge to your own benefit isn't very RP friendly.

What are your thoughts on the capacity for the admin team to handle an expanded ghost role roster insofar as increasing the ability for irretrievable players to rejoin the round?

I played 78 rounds myself in the past two weeks and zero times has it been bought. There was one attempt on super late night for a drinking monkey that was empowered by booze, got murdered by the captain, but that player didn't take the new body. We had plans to make them the next greatest chain smoker in the galaxy.

If I look into the mirror and the aussie doctor from house md stares back, who doth stare back from your mirror?

You what mate.