[iain0] Live by the batong, noted by the batong

[FlapjackKong]

BYOND account: flapjackshrek

Ban/note type (Server Ban/Discord Ban/Forum Ban/Note): Note

Ban/note duration: Permanent
Ban/note reason: Clarified with player that they should be using non lethal force on non antagonists where possible. Also clarified "lethal force" would be force which leaves permenant damage, and thus their default tools should be disabler and stun baton for example. In ahelp player commented "just perma ban me if I can't harm batong a resisting criminal as a secoff tbh" so I guess if this continues ...
Time ban was placed: 2025-03-11 21:56:16
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 250115

Why are you making this appeal? (Put an x in the boxes):
() - The ban/note is factually incorrect
(X) - The ban/note is not against the rules
() - The ban/note needs modification
() - The ban was unjustifiably harsh
() - I was permabanned and I want another chance

Why should this appeal be accepted?: I hate to do another appeal so shortly after my last one but I don't feel I did anything wrong. Suspect was an assistant and repeat offender very early in the round and stole security equipment, then tackled me with stolen retrieval gloves after I lawfully asked them to turn in the equipment. I harm batonged them like 3 times then cuffed and handed them to warden and that is all, also note that doing this worked to my advantage tactically since the damage slowed them down slightly when they ran away after being almost freed by a random assistant who shoved me. Suspect later gets gulagged for one point and goes SSD (for another, different crime which I didn't see or handle).
Quick google of lethal force, "Deadly force, also known as lethal force, is the use of force that is likely to cause serious bodily injury or death to another person." Neither of which apply to a light beating while trying to apprehend a repeat offender who is resisting arrest and tackling an officer. As for the reason I said to perma ban me, I feel this is a ridiculous ask. Playing security can be fun but a lot of the time it can sucks balls, If I can't beat up a shitter every once and a while I frankly will never play the role ever again.

You know what would have been cooler for criminal to do? grow some balls, talk to a lawyer or superior, gather likeminded for a protest or revolution, or fax centcom.
You know what would have been cooler for admin to do? Tell them to grow some balls, talk to a lawyer or superior, gather likeminded for a protest or revolution, or fax centcom.
But that is just my personal opinion and has no weight to this appeal.

[iain0]

I think you missed that, from what I gather and having not paid /huge/ detail to it, your previous was dropped because lung punch doesn't tend to give persistent damage.

No, you can not beat up a shitter every once in a while, you're expected to use non lethal detention methods except where there's a good reason not to (suitably armed opponent, uncontainable, hulk, etc).

If you're harm batoning them into cuffing them pretty questionable what the slow down has to do with anything either especially as pre-emptive. Feel free to admin help any crew that is interfering in your work for no reason, I expect players to have an IC justification for any such action otherwise I'll deal with them too.

As for your request to be permabanned if you cant just smack people around as sec, yeah, I thought that was pretty ridiculous too, but between that and you telling me you weren't intending to follow the guidance I'd given it seemed worth adding to the note ; such statements have a reasonable chance in just turning into a permaban (probably role in this case) if you're openly unwilling to comply, but at the time I was more interested in working out why people were talking about your prior, and statbus was being mean to me at the time so I didn't figure it out until later as to what happened previously, so I ended up just closing it all out and figuring if you did as you said you would then you'd just fast track to a sec ban anyway.

You know what would have been cooler for the player to do? Not openly tell me in the ticket you had zero intention of following the rules (see also rule 6, administrative in game rulings are final, that is, you file a protest/complaint/appeal on the forums and until that is resolved, you abide by my decision).

Anyway don't think there's much to discuss here, the nub of this issue is you think you can abuse prisoners with some harm once in a while when you feel like it, and I don't think you can. Logs probably are less relevant than the necessity of putting this generalisation about sec causing unnecessary harm to bed. Sec hasn't really been like that for some years and we've largely driven that behaviour off terry, I don't intend to go backwards on that.

As such, this just seems like fundamentally different takes, so unless you have anything further to add, I'll decline this and ask if you wish for a headmin appeal.

[FlapjackKong]

I think you missed that, from what I gather and having not paid /huge/ detail to it, your previous was dropped because lung punch doesn't tend to give persistent damage.

That was on MRP and got dropped, this is LRP and unrelated to that note.

No, you can not beat up a shitter every once in a while, you're expected to use non lethal detention methods except where there's a good reason not to (suitably armed opponent, uncontainable, hulk, etc).

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lethal
Tell me when I used lethal force, last I check the batong can't cause fractures or major injuries.
Checking the wiki on the stun batong it claims "[Harmbatonging] Excessive use is discouraged among forward-thinking and sympathetic security forces." IE. not every member of the security force.

If you're harm batoning them into cuffing them pretty questionable what the slow down has to do with anything either especially as pre-emptive.

This wasn't my initial goal when I beat up a criminal I just offhandedly mentioned how it saved my ass from losing someone I detained.

Feel free to admin help any crew that is interfering in your work for no reason, I expect players to have an IC justification for any such action otherwise I'll deal with them too.

I don't think assistants freeing other assistants is that bad personally, I fined the other assistant 50 credits and left it at that before you boinked me.

As for your request to be permabanned if you cant just smack people around as sec, yeah, I thought that was pretty ridiculous too, but between that and you telling me you weren't intending to follow the guidance I'd given it seemed worth adding to the note ; such statements have a reasonable chance in just turning into a permaban (probably role in this case) if you're openly unwilling to comply,

I was annoyed because it takes a donkpocket or a little string from a medkit and 5 seconds to undo the supposedly lethal force I did onto them, I've been playing this game since 2015 and harm batonging isn't some new crazy unusual punishment it's baked into security culture and among other things it's banning would frankly be the straw that killed this camel's back into not wanting to play on this server.
Here is the ticket where I asked for a ban https://statbus.space/tickets/public/16 ... eab4d3c902

but at the time I was more interested in working out why people were talking about your prior, and statbus was being mean to me at the time so I didn't figure it out until later as to what happened previously, so I ended up just closing it all out and figuring if you did as you said you would then you'd just fast track to a sec ban anyway.

Is this because my other note got appealed? I don't know why this is relevant if it isn't on my record anymore and is on a server with extra moderation.

You know what would have been cooler for the player to do? Not openly tell me in the ticket you had zero intention of following the rules (see also rule 6, administrative in game rulings are final, that is, you file a protest/complaint/appeal on the forums and until that is resolved, you abide by my decision).

I DID say "Ok. I will continue to harmbatong people who resist arrest though." and I have yet to harm batong anyone else for resisting arrest. I was salty so my bad, I still stand by my statement that it makes more sense to tell this guy to grow some balls or suggest avenues to combat (VERY)minor police brutality but instead you are acting like I did a Rodney King beating space edition.

Anyway don't think there's much to discuss here, the nub of this issue is you think you can abuse prisoners with some harm once in a while when you feel like it, and I don't think you can.

First off not a prisoner, an habitual offender assistant who was attacking me after resisting a lawful order. It wasn't a rando in the halls or a prisoner that I felt like beating up on a whim. Secondly I disagree that as a player I'm not allowed to give a couple love taps to someone who is a criminal, assaulting me, and annoying me.

Logs probably are less relevant than the necessity of putting this generalisation about sec causing unnecessary harm to bed. Sec hasn't really been like that for some years and we've largely driven that behaviour off terry, I don't intend to go backwards on that.

I think I act in good faith when I beat people up as a security officer of an authoritarian megacorp. Have you listened to the hailer voice lines on the sec mask, really make you feel like your dealing with universe's most peaceful and understanding police force. And don't forget the gulag, really sells the fact that they are pure at heart and infallible human beings. Or the torment nexus update, nothing says compassion like melting people's brains for credits and batong skins.

As such, this just seems like fundamentally different takes,

Agreed.

so unless you have anything further to add, I'll decline this and ask if you wish for a headmin appeal.

Yes I want this appealed, but before that I want you to clarify that you think three hits of a batong to the chest is considered lethal force. After all the only rule break you have cited is security rule 1.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lethal
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nonlethal
Frankly the only way you can convince me that I broke any rules is if you were to change them to fit your false definition of lethality.

[iain0]

I already gave you a definition of lethal force, i'll copy the ticket over.

You also seem to just want to be able to smack anyone around who resists. I don't really agree with this take. You don't specify any deeper reason in your ticket, and just that you're going to carry on regardless

From Ticket #3 during round 250115 on terry:

---- Log Begins ----
2025-03-11 21:47:55: Ticket Opened by iain0: hi there, can you tell me why you applied lethal force to Jazmin Malcovich please?
2025-03-11 21:48:31: Reply from flapjackshrek: they tackled me and I was getting annoyed so I batong them
2025-03-11 21:50:55: Reply from iain0: from security policy<br />
<br />
1. Rule 1 of the main rules applies to security.<br />
The only exception is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods.<br />
<br />
you should not be using lethal force without a very good reason, and by very good this usually means a risk of lethal harm to yourself, someone with a gun, a hulk that cant be stunned, etc. doesn't seem to apply here?
2025-03-11 21:52:08: Reply from flapjackshrek: I don't consider a few harmbatongs for assaulting an officer to be lethal force.
2025-03-11 21:52:41: Reply from iain0: lethal force means force that applies non temporary damage typically, i.e. force that could be leveraged to lethal effect, versus disablers and stun batons
2025-03-11 21:53:39: Reply from flapjackshrek: Is this what the server deems or are you saying that less than lethal force doesn't exist?
2025-03-11 21:54:13: Reply from iain0: this is as far as i understand it the rules, and thus why your standard loadout is STUN baton and DISABLER not gun
2025-03-11 21:55:12: Reply from flapjackshrek: just perma ban me if I can't harm batong a resisting criminal as a secoff tbh
2025-03-11 21:56:17: <font color="
0000FF"><a>iain0</a>/(Bob Stange) has created a note for FlapjackShrek</font><br />Clarified with player that they should be using non lethal force on non antagonists where possible. Also clarified "lethal force" would be force which leaves permenant damage, and thus their default tools should be disabler and stun baton for example.
2025-03-11 21:56:29: Reply from iain0: i'm not going to do that, but you can request a voluntary permaban if you like
2025-03-11 21:57:00: Reply from flapjackshrek: I didn't do anything wrong so I'm not requesting a permaban.
2025-03-11 21:57:47: Reply from iain0: and you didn't do enough wrong for me to permaban you, so not sure why you asked for one. will ask you to stick to security policy as discussed in future, and perhaps brush up on it at the wiki (currently at <a href="https://paradisestation.org/tgwiki2/ind ... itle=Rules" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://paradisestation.org/tgwiki2/ind ... e=Rules</a>)
2025-03-11 21:59:18: Reply from flapjackshrek: Ok. I will continue to harmbatong people who resist arrest though.
2025-03-11 22:20:29: Resolved by iain0
---- No Further Messages ----

This ticket can be viewed here: http://statbus.space/tickets/250115/3
This ticket was generated by Statbus v.2.0.10

My "checking history" was largely to see why this was a known thing but wasn't on your notes. Even if that had been for reasons of it not being withdrawn that would have just been between me and the other admin to ask "why", it's not something I could hold against you since it wasn't noted hence just closing out the ticket before I got that information anyway.

You're welcome not to have issue with assistants freeing assistants, it has however been a curse on terry that renders security fairly unable to act. Some prefer IC, some ahelp, it's up to you, option is there, that is all, not that "i should beat people up just in case some assistant blah blah" kinda thing.

Your statement that you just intend to baton anyone who resists at all (despite them being free to non harmfully evade) didn't sit well so this absolutely became a note by the end of the ticket.

I'll notify the headmins

[FlapjackKong]

I already gave you a [INCORRECT] definition of lethal force

A chair is considered a lethal weapon according to that definition.

You also seem to just want to be able to smack anyone around who resists.

God I wish I could. But I don't because I have respect for other players.

My "checking history" was largely to see why this was a known thing but wasn't on your notes. Even if that had been for reasons of it not being withdrawn that would have just been between me and the other admin to ask "why", it's not something I could hold against you since it wasn't noted hence just closing out the ticket before I got that information anyway.

Half of your reply was talking about it, the other half is you accusing me of being in bad faith.

You're welcome not to have issue with assistants freeing assistants, it has however been a curse on terry that renders security fairly unable to act. Some prefer IC, some ahelp, it's up to you, option is there, that is all, not that "i should beat people up just in case some assistant blah blah" kinda thing.

Probably for the best, I feel bad for noob secoffs sometimes. Personally I'm ok with getting looted or inconvenienced by nonantags as a secoff, I can always just get new shit and gives security something to do other than patrol their designated department.

[iain0]

Relevant logs (game and attack) for both ckeys around the time

Line 5186: [2025-03-11 21:42:39.229] GAME: thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (mob_3343) reset a fire alarm. (Central Primary Hallway (123,143,2))
Line 5192: [2025-03-11 21:42:40.516] GAME: thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (mob_3343) triggered a fire alarm. (Central Primary Hallway (123,143,2))
Line 5195: [2025-03-11 21:42:41.388] GAME: thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (mob_3343) reset a fire alarm. (Central Primary Hallway (123,143,2))
Line 5510: [2025-03-11 21:43:37.085] ATTACK: thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (mob_3343) hit flapjackshrek/(Maddix Cummings) (NEWHP: 100) (Locker Room (136,153,2))
Line 5587: [2025-03-11 21:43:48.800] ATTACK: [beanie] () hit flapjackshrek/(Maddix Cummings) (NEWHP: 100) (Locker Room (135,150,2))
Line 5605: [2025-03-11 21:43:52.084] ATTACK: flapjackshrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3357) stun attacked thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 57.7) (Locker Room (133,148,2))
Line 5606: [2025-03-11 21:43:52.087] ATTACK: flapjackshrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3357) attacked thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) with stun baton (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 47.7) (Locker Room (133,148,2))
Line 5617: [2025-03-11 21:43:53.847] ATTACK: flapjackshrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3357) attacked thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) with stun baton (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 37.7) (Locker Room (133,148,2))
Line 5629: [2025-03-11 21:43:54.848] ATTACK: flapjackshrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3357) stun attacked thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 37.7) (Locker Room (133,148,2))
Line 5630: [2025-03-11 21:43:54.851] ATTACK: flapjackshrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3357) attacked thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) with stun baton (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 27.7) (Locker Room (133,148,2))
Line 5633: [2025-03-11 21:43:55.746] ATTACK: flapjackshrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3357) attacked thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) with stun baton (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 17.7) (Locker Room (133,148,2))
Line 5649: [2025-03-11 21:43:57.634] GAME-SAY: thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (mob_3343) "THIS IS AVIAN PROFILING" (Locker Room (134,148,2))
Line 5654: [2025-03-11 21:43:58.016] ATTACK: flapjackshrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3357) attempted to handcuff thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (NEWHP: 17.7) (Locker Room (135,149,2))
Line 5661: [2025-03-11 21:43:59.033] ATTACK: flapjackshrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3357) grabbed thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) passive grab (NEWHP: 17.7) (Locker Room (135,149,2))
Line 5667: [2025-03-11 21:44:00.986] ATTACK: flapjackshrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3357) successfully handcuffed thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (NEWHP: 17.7) (Locker Room (135,149,2))
Line 5683: [2025-03-11 21:44:02.850] GAME-SAY: thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (mob_3343) "AI MADDIX IS HARMING ME" (Locker Room (137,150,2))
Line 5696: [2025-03-11 21:44:05.915] GAME-SAY: thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (mob_3343) "HE BEAT ME" (Dormitories (137,158,2))
Line 5698: [2025-03-11 21:44:07.822] GAME-SAY: thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (mob_3343) "SEND A BORG" (Locker Room (133,151,2))
Line 5730: [2025-03-11 21:44:13.392] ATTACK: lipino7/(Hans Robert) (mob_3342) shoved flapjackshrek/(Maddix Cummings) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 100) (Locker Room (121,147,2))
Line 5759: [2025-03-11 21:44:18.139] ATTACK: flapjackshrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3357) grabbed thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) passive grab (NEWHP: 17.7) (Central Primary Hallway (125,138,2))
Line 6106: [2025-03-11 21:44:40.081] GAME-SAY: thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (mob_3343) "WHAT AM I UNDER ARREST FOR" (Security Office (116,171,2))
Line 6179: [2025-03-11 21:44:53.875] GAME-SAY: thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (mob_3343) "THIS IS DISCRIMINATORY" (Security Office (116,171,2))
Line 6204: [2025-03-11 21:44:58.704] GAME-SAY: thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (mob_3343) "JUST BECAUSE I&#39;M A GRIFFON" (Security Office (116,171,2))
Line 6207: [2025-03-11 21:44:59.556] GAME-SAY: flapjackshrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3357) "Stole sec equipment and assault on an offcier" (Security Office (119,170,2))

Zero damage done to you, 15 seconds pass, no words, stun into 4 attacks.

[FlapjackKong]

Why did you cutoff the entire buildup to the situation? Kinda bad faith of you ngl. Not kinda actually, it just is.

[iain0]

?

Line 4213: [2025-03-11 21:39:15.749] ATTACK: thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (mob_3343) temp shocked for 30 seconds [Labor Camp Shuttle Airlock] (Fore Maintenance (129,172,2))
Line 4256: [2025-03-11 21:39:26.870] ATTACK: flapjackshrek/(Maddix Cummings) (mob_3357) slipped on the [banana peel] (Lesser Aft Maintenance (129,69,2))
Line 4950: [2025-03-11 21:41:53.838] ATTACK: thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (mob_3343) temp shocked for 30 seconds [Brig] (Central Primary Hallway (107,145,2))
Line 4951: [2025-03-11 21:41:53.841] ATTACK: thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (mob_3343) temp shocked for 30 seconds [Labor Camp Shuttle Airlock] (Central Primary Hallway (107,145,2))
Line 4952: [2025-03-11 21:41:53.843] ATTACK: thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (mob_3343) temp shocked for 30 seconds [Brig] (Central Primary Hallway (107,145,2))
Line 5098: [2025-03-11 21:42:23.653] ATTACK: thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (mob_3343) has thrown the proximity sensor-remote signaling device assembly . (Fore Primary Hallway (107,157,2))
Line 5186: [2025-03-11 21:42:39.229] GAME: thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (mob_3343) reset a fire alarm. (Central Primary Hallway (123,143,2))
Line 5192: [2025-03-11 21:42:40.516] GAME: thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (mob_3343) triggered a fire alarm. (Central Primary Hallway (123,143,2))
Line 5195: [2025-03-11 21:42:41.388] GAME: thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (mob_3343) reset a fire alarm. (Central Primary Hallway (123,143,2))
Line 5510: [2025-03-11 21:43:37.085] ATTACK: thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) (mob_3343) hit flapjackshrek/(Maddix Cummings) (NEWHP: 100) (Locker Room (136,153,2))

Be more specific please, I cut the above section since you're in totally different areas. There's a bit before that with a toy sword and donk pockets.

You also make zero mention of equipment or theft or prior incidents in your original ticket, merely that you felt you wanted to beat them up for tackling you (non harmfully). I'm not omniscient and i'm not reading an entire round's logs if you dont give me reason to. Your defence did not rely on any of this additional information you're bringing to the table afterwards, you felt justified enough in your ticket off the mere tackle and run around the room pictured above, and are introducing new things after the fact. As for freedom to beat people for resisting arrest that could mean as little as running around a room for 10 seconds, which is what seems to be the case here.

I'm also told (but cant confirm) the gloves were just left in the locker room, so the alleged theft might not be a thing anyway.

[FlapjackKong]

We talked before I made the arrest. I want the full logs

[Omega_DarkPotato]

Hello! Headmins have convened. This note appeal is accepted, and the note will be lifted.

HOWEVER:
Timberpoes and I want to make a couple very important points clear, due to the fact that this appeal is only accepted due to very specific context AND despite Iain doing no wrong in his application of the rules.

• Security rule 1 (which applies to all servers, including terry) states specifically "security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods." A tackle down is an attack back from the arrested, and due to the fact that Jasmin attacked you in this way, your escalation to a proportionate amount of lethal force is justified- a couple of baton hits. Escalation policy would not protect you had you decided to use more severe lethal force. (shooting them with a laser gun to crit or death)
• Running away or refusing to hand back equipment is not an attack, and unless someone is uncontainable, an officer is expected to still use nonlethal equipment exclusively against someone who has not attacked them yet.
• Iain identified the core rule that would have been broken here, and without the appellant (you!) defending themselves to any degree in the ticket, they were correct in their placement of this note. Had you done something other than saying "just perma ban me" or "okay, I will continue to do (thing you just told me not to do)" this'd be a different conversation.
• Security cannot pre-emptively use lethal force against someone they expect to attack back without that individual being an antagonist. You can't pre-beat the assistant, your escalation starts at nonlethal exclusively.

Also as a personal suggestion do not tell admins "just permaban me" "I don't care" when you're in a ticket with them. I think that with the information Iain was presented and the attitude you responded to them with, he responded entirely correctly.

[FlapjackKong]

Hello! Headmins have convened. This note appeal is accepted, and the note will be lifted.

Will I get my logs that I requested. Or at least the logs of me actually talking to them.

HOWEVER:
Timberpoes and I want to make a couple very important points clear, due to the fact that this appeal is only accepted due to very specific context AND despite Iain doing no wrong in his application of the rules.

Is this an admin trainer not being able to correctly read logs or a blatant rule 6 violation, "Deliberately lying or misrepresenting facts in adminhelps will be dealt with harshly."

[*] Security rule 1 (which applies to all servers, including terry) states specifically "security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods." A tackle down is an attack back from the arrested, and due to the fact that Jasmin attacked you in this way, your escalation to a proportionate amount of lethal force is justified- a couple of baton hits. Escalation policy would not protect you had you decided to use more severe lethal force. (shooting them with a laser gun to crit or death)

Yeah that's what I always do non-lethal first. However I would like to think there should be more nuance to this if you are going to bring the Escalation Policy into this, "You may begin IC conflicts with another player if it does not excessively interfere with their ability to do their job. While you are allowed to escalate conflicts, if it leads to violence and you have poor IC reasoning for inciting it, you may face administrative action."
If someone gives security a major headache or is provoking them/being a general nuisance would it not be reasonable for someone to return it with a smack or two of the batong, I think that would be good IC reasoning that doesn't fall within your example of proportional force.

[*] Running away or refusing to hand back equipment is not an attack, and unless someone is uncontainable, an officer is expected to still use nonlethal equipment exclusively against someone who has not attacked them yet.

Yeah I know.

[*] Iain identified the core rule that would have been broken here, and without the appellant (you!) defending themselves to any degree in the ticket, they were correct in their placement of this note. Had you done something other than saying "just perma ban me" or "okay, I will continue to do (thing you just told me not to do)" this'd be a different conversation.

2025-03-11 21:48:31: Reply from flapjackshrek: they tackled me and I was getting annoyed so I batong them
2025-03-11 21:52:08: Reply from flapjackshrek: I don't consider a few harmbatongs for assaulting an officer to be lethal force.

Seems like a pretty cut and dry defense to me, and an admin trainer couldn't find reasonable cause for this. As a matter of a fact they argue against this which makes me a player lose hope for this server and not want to play on it.

Iain doing no wrong in his application of the rules.

So this is the standard for the server? Then afterward, misreading or blatantly lying about logs in an appeal.

[*] Security cannot pre-emptively use lethal force against someone they expect to attack back without that individual being an antagonist. You can't pre-beat the assistant, your escalation starts at nonlethal exclusively.

Yeah, I know. I think I would have been banned from security roles a lot earlier if I was beating people for wearing grey.

Also as a personal suggestion do not tell admins "just permaban me" "I don't care" when you're in a ticket with them. I think that with the information Iain was presented and the attitude you responded to them with, he responded entirely correctly.

Was I sassy? Yeah, I was playing a round of SS13 as one of the only active secoff and dealing with this shit at the same time. Did I do anything against the rules? Considering the appeal got accepted I would say no.

[Omega_DarkPotato]

go touch grass