Permanent Imprisonment Over Murder Resulting From No-no Words Involving Reptiles

[Archie700]

We know that you are allowed to kill off crew who say the l-word.

The issue is whether security is allowed to arrest and perma and gulag you over the murder.

[wet socks]

I think murder is a severe response to a word, even if that word is a slur. We don't murder people over words in real life and I think that reasoning should extend to IC as well and Security should be allowed to arrest murderers even if the murder was valid OOC.

[NoxVS]

I think murder is a severe response to a word, even if that word is a slur. We don't murder people over words in real life and I think that reasoning should extend to IC as well and Security should be allowed to arrest murderers even if the murder was valid OOC.

In real life you'd be at risk of being fired. I support allowing security to arrest people for murdering over this if admins are empowered to ban people for using slurs, sort of as a representation of them having been fired.

[Archie700]

I think murder is a severe response to a word, even if that word is a slur. We don't murder people over words in real life and I think that reasoning should extend to IC as well and Security should be allowed to arrest murderers even if the murder was valid OOC.

If we should have people arrested for murder over the "l-word", we should also let security protect people from being murdered over the "l-word".

Then we have to ban people for security baiting into a conflict over the l-word because the baiting conflicts to be killed or arrested by security over the l-word is bannable.

[ItzRiumz]

Until admins are allowed to ban people for saying the L word this shouldn't be enforced. I also really doubt any security officer is going to arrest someone and perma/gulag over killing a person for saying the L word anyway. If they do actually do perma/gulag someone they're going to be VERY disliked.

[NecromancerAnne]

I think it's...okay for security to arrest you for beating up someone over the situation, assuming it isn't the victim orchestrating the situation. Which is basically just baiting at that point. They're a third party that does actually have a job to maintain order, and random assaults kind of fall under that.

Since murder is not how this interaction is meant to play out except on repeat occurrences...dubious if the escalation does reach that point? Again, I think sec is a third party here that isn't really at fault for doing what is ostensibly their job. If nobody on the team is accepting the defense of 'we beat up a specist asshole, he came back again and kept doing it, so we shanked him because he was asking for it', it's what it is. Sounds like the conflict that security presents operating as expected.

I think if there is anyone culpable in this scenario, its the guy screaming the imaginary racial slurs looking for retaliation multiple times.

[Archie700]

I think it's...okay for security to arrest you for beating up someone over the situation, assuming it isn't the victim orchestrating the situation. Which is basically just baiting at that point. They're a third party that does actually have a job to maintain order, and random assaults kind of fall under that.

Since murder is not how this interaction is meant to play out except on repeat occurrences...dubious if the escalation does reach that point? Again, I think sec is a third party here that isn't really at fault for doing what is ostensibly their job. If nobody on the team is accepting the defense of 'we beat up a specist asshole, he came back again and kept doing it, so we shanked him because he was asking for it', it's what it is. Sounds like the conflict that security presents operating as expected.

I think if there is anyone culpable in this scenario, its the guy screaming the imaginary racial slurs looking for retaliation multiple times.

The exact problem with this is that murder is exactly how this interaction is meant to play out if you say the l-words because it removes any valid protection you have and allows you to be RR at once.

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=34353

This isn't a word that is part of normal escalation. This is a word that, once it is said, just outright makes you valid to kill and space. Do not pass arrivals, do not collect 200 credits.

[britgrenadier1]

nah I think that allowing sec to arrest over that stuff makes saying it escalation baiting. No one back in the day got arrested for validing people over WGW why would this valid word be any different other than we want people to say the N word with one letter changed.

[DrAmazing343]

I feel as though at this rate, especially with the host handover, I'd like to put forward the idea of making "Ligger" a totally banned word equatable to use of any other derogatory slur. It's beyond antiquated, and honestly, there's ZERO sovl in it like anything else in the Good Book of Old SS13.

[RedBaronFlyer]

I always saw the "ligger makes you valid" rule as a weird middleground because administration wanted it banned but MSO wanted it to stay. (I could be wrong but I'm like 95% sure this is why ligger is still allowed)

On one hand I agree that security should 100% enforce laws but... at the same time every time I've seen ligger used on manuel it is from someone desperately looking for a fight.

[DrAmazing343]

I've never ever seen it used in an interesting way. Never. I don't see any reason to keep the ruling while MSO is letting go of his role as host.

[britgrenadier1]

Seconding that the only times I see it used is to just get a rise out of people and escalation bait or as a """TOTALLY NOT RACISM AGAINST IRL BLACK PEOPLE""" smokescreen. We have taildragger now, we can put this to bed

[Timberpoes]

Yes, please let me finally say that it's against the rules to say it.

I'm turbo over it. If we can call people liggers then IC then why not lincels? Lanchild? Is nyagger acceptable? Nyanchild? Nyancel?

How many examples do I have to nyansplain to show how utterly catarded this entire exception and concept is.

Why the arbitrary line to protect nigger with a letter swap? It's dumb. It was dumb when I saw it as a new player. It was dumb during my first headmin term. It's was dumb during my second headmin term. It's still dumb 5 years later during my third term. Let's stop being stuck in the past like old fossils and embrace the change to create a space that's worth playing.

There shouldn't be an exception carved out for nigger with an L in modern 2025 tgstation and I hope to Dog that Scriptis has any agency over this topic now and that he's mindful to see it gone as a relic of a dead age.

I didn't even really care about banning WGW that much, as a piece of SS13 soul its quality lies in its shock value more than anything else. I think it was fine to be banned but if ligger is what's left behind I'd see ligger banned 1000 times over before I see WGW get banned. Racism, which is what ligger is - not specieism - is infinitely worse than some lolshock erotic Toy Story fanfic.

Please let me rule to put an end to this with finality. If I can be remembered as part of the term that finally banned ligger, I can consider the culmination of all my time spent headminning worth it from that alone.

[Archie700]

As long as MSO is still footing the bill, I don't see it being banned.

For now we're stuck with this ruling, as do a lot of other rulings regarding rule 11.

[Jamarkus]

Thank you Timberpose, Very cool!

I think people wanna use the L slur because we kind of gave it the same weight as the n-word. Its now just as strong as its real counterpart now since it can easily result in the same outcome both ways.

if we just ignored it I still think it would have never gone away with the edgy types, but banning it is a step foreword for the community, like how we banned the use of the N-word in the discord, and across all other parts of TGstation.
I was edgy before and used the funny set-off black slur, but learnt to grow out of it with help from education and other things. As long as we dont entertain it and leave it black and white as we do the N-word, then whatever. if we lose the free speech community, then whatever. we lost people when we banned the N-word, we are just getting rid of the people that are circumventing it with the L word.

Spoiler:

Timber you didnt have to use the n-word in the message :(

[ABearInTheWoods]

Why the arbitrary line to call this word nigger with a letter swap? and not trigger, or bigger, or tigger, that lovable old tiger. Why is does this word have to be reduced to "nigger" with a letter swap It's dumb. It was dumb when I saw it as a new host. It was dumb during your first headmin term. It's was dumb during your second headmin term. It's still dumb 10 years later during my retirement. Let's stop being stuck in the past like old fossils and embrace the change to create a space that's worth playing.

[DrAmazing343]

It's especially pertinent, I think, that our admins would 100% action it if it became clear someone was calling people "DIRTY OLD TRIGGERS!" or something ridiculous like that. The intent is clear. The issue is clear. Time to put it to bed.

[ABearInTheWoods]

It's especially pertinent, I think, that our admins would 100% action it if it became clear someone was calling people "DIRTY OLD TRIGGERS!" or something ridiculous like that. The intent is clear. The issue is clear. Time to put it to bed.

the argument is still stupid

it will never not be stupid

the fact its one letter away from nigger is irrelevant and you all seem like a bunch of schoolyard monitors for harping on about it.

[ABearInTheWoods]

but learnt to grow out of it with help from education and other things.
...

Spoiler:

Timber you didnt have to use the n-word in the message

Like this is the type of person you are catering to by banning ligger. its the kid calling for miss finster over any rule break on the schoolyard, only grown up.

That first line is so insufferable and i don't believe for a second they give a fuck about black people or minorities, they just like knowing all the right social rules so they can feel bigger than people who don't step thru the same hoops as them. they argue against saying nigger or ligger for the same reason they used to be a edgy teenager who said nigger. so they can feel bigger about themselves. They are indistinguishable from a school yard bully only made worse by having a moral highground to hide behind and I have zero respect for this kind of performative shit.

[Jamarkus]

straight up if its used or not I really dont care. At the end of the day you will NEVER satisfy both parties.

the fact its one letter away from nigger is irrelevant and you all seem like a bunch of schoolyard monitors for harping on about it.

Though I honestly wanna ask MSO, what makes it irrelevant if its one letter away from the word nigger? because while in the literary term its obviously not Nigger. clearly its referring to an entirely made up species on a space game and the term is used derogatorily to undermine a species. So it has no fundamental example to a real life application since lizard people aren't real.

Though its root and conceptualization came from taking a term that referenced a real race of people that were considered sub-class to the main populace. its not an exact copy. we arent calling lizard people niggers, but we are pretty damn close to it, and we subconsciously are using the word in that context when we reference it. When you think Ligger, obliviously the lizard shows up in your mind. But whats it actually LOOK like? does it look like a lizard? act like a lizard? or does it look like a black guy? Im being completely honest here.

Ill take the stance that banning words will never solve the issue, but if we cant address what the word is actually implying and feel comfortable about it, then whats the point?

Im not trying to get a rise outta you, I legit am looking for an answer to your point.

[ABearInTheWoods]

straight up if its used or not I really dont care. At the end of the day you will NEVER satisfy both parties.

the fact its one letter away from nigger is irrelevant and you all seem like a bunch of schoolyard monitors for harping on about it.

Though I honestly wanna ask MSO, what makes it irrelevant if its one letter away from the word nigger?

ok i take back what i said about you, i'm sorry.

because while in the literary term its obviously not Nigger. clearly its referring to an entirely made up species on a space game and the term is used derogatorily to undermine a species. So it has no fundamental example to a real life application since lizard people aren't real.

Though its root and conceptualization came from taking a term that referenced a real race of people that were considered sub-class to the main populace. its not an exact copy. we arent calling lizard people niggers, but we are pretty damn close to it, and we subconsciously are using the word in that context when we reference it. When you think Ligger, obliviously the lizard shows up in your mind. But whats it actually LOOK like? does it look like a lizard? act like a lizard? or does it look like a black guy? Im being completely honest here.

All forms of allowable specism will eventually resemble real life racism. This is what makes it so powerful as an allegorical tool.

As for ligger, my mind jumps to a lizard janitor who's wet floor just called me to slip, a lower form inconveniencing me by doing their job and unjustly drawing my ire over it.

Ill take the stance that banning words will never solve the issue, but if we cant address what the word is actually implying and feel comfortable about it, then whats the point?

Im not trying to get a rise outta you, I legit am looking for an answer to your point.

The point is the argument fails the simple test of applying it to the rest the game. at this point you might as well forbid specism

[NecromancerAnne]

Please let me rule to put an end to this with finality. If I can be remembered as part of the term that finally banned ligger, I can consider the culmination of all my time spent headminning worth it from that alone.

How do I like a forum post?

[Jamarkus]

straight up if its used or not I really dont care. At the end of the day you will NEVER satisfy both parties.

the fact its one letter away from nigger is irrelevant and you all seem like a bunch of schoolyard monitors for harping on about it.

Though I honestly wanna ask MSO, what makes it irrelevant if its one letter away from the word nigger?

ok i take back what i said about you, i'm sorry.

Lmao all good.

because while in the literary term its obviously not Nigger. clearly its referring to an entirely made up species on a space game and the term is used derogatorily to undermine a species. So it has no fundamental example to a real life application since lizard people aren't real.

Though its root and conceptualization came from taking a term that referenced a real race of people that were considered sub-class to the main populace. its not an exact copy. we arent calling lizard people niggers, but we are pretty damn close to it, and we subconsciously are using the word in that context when we reference it. When you think Ligger, obliviously the lizard shows up in your mind. But whats it actually LOOK like? does it look like a lizard? act like a lizard? or does it look like a black guy? Im being completely honest here.

All forms of allowable specism will eventually resemble real life racism. This is what makes it so powerful as an allegorical tool.

As for ligger, my mind jumps to a lizard janitor who's wet floor just called me to slip, a lower form inconveniencing me by doing their job and unjustly drawing my ire over it.

This Aint wrong. in alot of media, especially fantasy, you have beings that are not human that are looked on as a lower class. I remember having an argument with a friend one time that if these non-human races existed, would there be internal racism of a specific color of a species in that inner subspecies? Neat thing to think about.

"Yellow lizards aren't Like us blue lizards!"

I guess now it falls under a more creative standpoint. Ligger is straight up lazy and uncreative. We have a policy on very boring and uncreative names as is right now, so why not apply this here for ligger? I prepose this: we aren't saying don't use it because it represents nigger, we are saying dont use it because you are being lazy for low-balling the species Racism. Unless you can justify why Ligger is actually a creative way to be speciesist towards a lizard, then why should we allow that type of laziness here?

If we truly want the word gone, then label it as BORING and makes you look like an NRPer. Yeah you can use it, but you are literally scraping at the bottom of a barrel for that one buddy, be more IC racist...creatively.

[Higgin]

We know that you are allowed to kill off crew who say the l-word.

The issue is whether security is allowed to arrest and perma and gulag you over the murder.

dodging the discussion about whether or not we just wanna be able to say the word or not here. transitioning means i can do matrix bullet time. still can't pull off the sunglasses though. swoosh

I feel like the appropriate answer here is "yes, but."

Specifically: security can action it; but at most, security can treat it as felony manslaughter. That is to say an 8-minute sentence or 500-800 points. Not perma, not as capital murder.
The flipside of this coin is that security can also arrest people and take their radios for saying ligger as incitement to a riot/disturbing the peace. The same people saying this are also still valid to security if security so chooses to take it out on them for slurring.

Why? Because ligger OOCly (and to keep it in line ICly) constitutes fighting words - unprotected speech - which makes the utterer valid for retaliation.

Practically, it makes the killer's action self-defense, or defense of another, which just (but understandably) got out of hand.

How does this work within the rules?

The sentence is under 10 minutes. IC issue.

The killer doesn't get RR'd by security for retaliating to people saying heinously offensive shit in-universe. Their dignity and honor are preserved. It never goes higher than manslaughter if they don't turn it into violence against somebody else.

Security still gets to act if they want to and deal with the consequences of crew killing each other within limits that don't basically force them into also saying ligger by jumping to the murder charge.

If ligger is still going to be allowed, and valid, security has a pathway up to dealing with the slurrer ICly.

The biggest problem here is that allowing it to be handled IC might create situations where security is trying to judge whether or not somebody actually Said The Word; where people are framing each other as Saying The Word; and where the killing takes place over hearsay -

The solution to this problem is that we already deal with this as admins where, in that moment, you're taking a risk if you decide to kill somebody for it for anything less than having said it to your face. And security still has a choice if they see a lizard dragging a body towards escape hissing 'he sssssaid the word' about whether or not to believe them or, instead, to do a limited arrest of the killer, revive the goofball racist, and wait to see what happens next after nobody goes to perma over it.

If they find a .357 in the lizard's backpack, then, they can make their best judgment under rule 1/rule 4 and RPR6.

Seems like the 'splitting the baby' solution here that limits the potential harms and maximizes the potential IC resolution. Treat the L-Word Defense as IC - it might be excessive, but it can't be malicious, and you can err on the side of caution without fully removing from the round (or letting be removed) anyone who hasn't earned it.

edit add: this is sort of the compromise i'd offer for any sort of stigmatized word or even conscionably in-universe slur of high degree (not just low-effort OOC racist side-swiping trash like ligger - which is and should still be actionable if you're doing it repeatedly to bait as just grief, nevermind rule 11 kicking in if it crosses over into evoking stereotypes and more explicitly OOC stuff.) the Lifeweb equivalent of this was 'gmyza' which gave the people who heard it a negative moodlet until they did some sort of violence to the speaker. I suppose I look at it a bit like that, though the rules contexts are very different between a server with rules and one that back in the day was quite intentionally without.

[Jamarkus]

Also quick response to Higgans spiel with no quoting, does this apply to people NOT using ligger? Like if I use tail-dragger, or Ash-heathen, or Lightbulb, does the same ruling apply to me with the IC racism? seems like a one way sword that isolates a single word, giving it weirdly more power than it should.

[Archie700]

We know that you are allowed to kill off crew who say the l-word.

The issue is whether security is allowed to arrest and perma and gulag you over the murder.

dodging the discussion about whether or not we just wanna be able to say the word or not here. transitioning means i can do matrix bullet time. still can't pull off the sunglasses though. swoosh

I feel like the appropriate answer here is "yes, but."

Specifically: security can action it; but at most, security can treat it as felony manslaughter. That is to say an 8-minute sentence or 500-800 points. Not perma, not as capital murder.
The flipside of this coin is that security can also arrest people and take their radios for saying ligger as incitement to a riot/disturbing the peace. The same people saying this are also still valid to security if security so chooses to take it out on them for slurring.

Why? Because ligger OOCly (and to keep it in line ICly) constitutes fighting words - unprotected speech - which makes the utterer valid for retaliation.

Practically, it makes the killer's action self-defense, or defense of another, which just (but understandably) got out of hand.

How does this work within the rules?

The sentence is under 10 minutes. IC issue.

The killer doesn't get RR'd by security for retaliating to people saying heinously offensive shit in-universe. Their dignity and honor are preserved. It never goes higher than manslaughter if they don't turn it into violence against somebody else.

Security still gets to act if they want to and deal with the consequences of crew killing each other within limits that don't basically force them into also saying ligger by jumping to the murder charge.

If ligger is still going to be allowed, and valid, security has a pathway up to dealing with the slurrer ICly.

The biggest problem here is that allowing it to be handled IC might create situations where security is trying to judge whether or not somebody actually Said The Word; where people are framing each other as Saying The Word; and where the killing takes place over hearsay -

The solution to this problem is that we already deal with this as admins where, in that moment, you're taking a risk if you decide to kill somebody for it for anything less than having said it to your face. And security still has a choice if they see a lizard dragging a body towards escape hissing 'he sssssaid the word' about whether or not to believe them or, instead, to do a limited arrest of the killer, revive the goofball racist, and wait to see what happens next after nobody goes to perma over it.

If they find a .357 in the lizard's backpack, then, they can make their best judgment under rule 1/rule 4 and RPR6.

Seems like the 'splitting the baby' solution here that limits the potential harms and maximizes the potential IC resolution. Treat the L-Word Defense as IC - it might be excessive, but it can't be malicious, and you can err on the side of caution without fully removing from the round (or letting be removed) anyone who hasn't earned it.

All these ironically send it right back towards "baiting people to get into conflicts to get in trouble".

Let's just trash any idea that it can even be handled ICly and just make it a soft filtered word so that admins can make a judgement of when the kill is valid.

I feel like handling it IC is more about immersions than actually preventing the word from being a escalation bait.

[Higgin]

Also quick response to Higgans spiel with no quoting, does this apply to people NOT using ligger? Like if I use tail-dragger, or Ash-heathen, or Lightbulb, does the same ruling apply to me with the IC racism? seems like a one way sword that isolates a single word, giving it weirdly more power than it should.

yeah idk. I suppose it could be expanded to say, 'kills over directed speciesism of any sort may be handled as up to manslaughter, speciesism may be handled up to disturbing the peace/inciting a riot over a single instance, don't treat it as murder if you've got nothing else to go on without some additional evidence e.g. efforts to hide/permanently dispose of the body or doing it as an EotC.'

(snip)

(snip)

All these ironically send it right back towards "baiting people to get into conflicts to get in trouble".

Let's just trash any idea that it can even be handled ICly and just make it a soft filtered word so that admins can make a judgement of when the kill is valid.

also fair, honestly, and preferable if we can just be damned and done with it.

or, do a funny and make it autoreplace to scalie/tail-dragger. like reddit. :^)

[Jamarkus]

or, do a funny and make it autoreplace to scalie/tail-dragger. like digg. :^)

Changing it to scalie has the opposite effect, making the racist turn into a lover of lizards in a very Rule 8 breaking way :D

[Higgin]

I feel like handling it IC is more about immersions than actually preventing the word from being a escalation bait.

and honestly, as much as immersion and keeping play going is what I'm thinking of, it's already immersion-breaking and obnoxious to have the lowest-effort lampshade of real-life slurs flying around, at least to me. i've got the opposite of attachment to it.

Changing it to scalie has the opposite effect, making the racist turn into a lover of lizards in a very Rule 8 breaking way

calling a lizardperson a scalie in that context sort of feels like calling someone IRL an adult human fetish-haver

i just imagine it with that same energy coupled with them spam pointing to really bring it home. goofy as hell, as most of the better speciesism is

[britgrenadier1]

It's especially pertinent, I think, that our admins would 100% action it if it became clear someone was calling people "DIRTY OLD TRIGGERS!" or something ridiculous like that. The intent is clear. The issue is clear. Time to put it to bed.

the argument is still stupid

it will never not be stupid

the fact its one letter away from nigger is irrelevant and you all seem like a bunch of schoolyard monitors for harping on about it.

Schoolyard monitor or not, ligger is so clearly ooc that I don’t want it in game. 500 years into the future we’re apparently past human on human racism to the point where saying nigger will get you banned, but we’re okay with people saying what is ostensibly the same word. It isn’t remotely the same as saying trigger or whatever other one letter changed word you come up with. It is clearly, obviously, unquestionably, an evocation of nigger.

[Jacquerel]

I'm always personally behind any drive to continue acting out scenes and partaking in "role playing" so treating someone who just murdered someone as if they just murdered someone even if the OOC rule set means that they won't be banned for it seems reasonable to me, but I'm not that much of a fan of treating OOC problems via "validation" in the first place.

[Vekter]

There's two head admins that agree that it should be gone, which should be enough to actually get rid of it. Just pull the trigger and do it already.

scriptis has already said multiple times that he intends to keep his hand out of any administrative issues and let the head admins make policy. Nuts to what MSO thinks at this point.

If people want speciesism to stick around, make them have to come up with more interesting ways to implement it than "take an IRL slur and change a letter". There's plenty of interesting ways to insult non-humans. I've heard people call lizards "Tail-draggers", or ethereals "lightbulbs". If you're going to roleplay being an asshole, at least be creative about it.

Ligger is an embarrassing artifact of our 4chan days and should be tossed out as we have everything else from those days.

[Maxipat]

Why are we keeping it allowed even, in my entire admin career i only ever saw 2 types of cases where ligger is used:

- to „hide” n-slur with it, racism is already against rules so it’s actionable (why would you ever call a human a ligger?)
- to bait a fight with it, already against rules as well.

If practically no one uses it as „speciesism”, then why our (read: MSO’s) main argument is it’s usecase as allowed speciesism.

E: grammar and style

[Vekter]

Why are we keeping it allowed even, in my entire admin career i only ever saw 2 types of cases where ligger is used:

- to „hide” n-slur with it, racism is already against rules so it’s actionable (why would you ever call a human a ligger?)
- to bait a fight with it, already against rules as well.

If practically no one uses it as „speciesism”, then why our (read: MSO’s) main argument is it’s usecase as allowed speciesism.

E: grammar and style

I want to say that the original argument was that we could get rid of any other instance of someone swapping a few letters from a slur (ie "nyagger") but "ligger" has to stay because of soul.

I don't know that this is still the case as I can't think of anyone that I've talked to who's been around for any decent amount of time that cares that it stays.

reddit probably does, which is a great reason to trash it outright.

[RareGambler]

On Terry, security just joins the lynch mob... Is there even a problem at all?

[ju45he]

You should be given a pop up warning before saying it that warns you that you will be subject to the wrath of the crew, and then allow for anyone to freely punish that person in whatever way they want.

The pop up simply so nobody who doesn't know of the consequences says it.

Mundane shit like their corpse being cooked and eaten to being repeatedly pod cloned and sent to die in any number of different ways, to sometimes just permenant solitary confinement.

[DrAmazing343]

I don’t care about the word much so long as people aren’t using it derogatorily, so much as the type of person to use it is the type of person who is antithetical to what I love in TG. I really don’t see a reason to keep it except to try and high horse about free speech, but really, I’ve never been a rancher.

[Jamarkus]

We still really haven't answered the main issue. Can you get in shit for for killing someone that has said Ligger? and by extension, can sec get in shit for arresting you for saying ligger.

Lets assume that it was a localized issue where you see two crewmembers in a brawl, and one kills the other. The claim is that they said the word that makes them valid. the issues lies in if what was stated is in fact, true.

Did the crewmember say ligger?

As the officer, you have 3 options here.

The first one would be to assume the crewmember is telling the truth, and carry on with your life. as the player, if they said the L word, they had it coming. Its out of my IC hands for something that they brought upon themselves.

secondly, assume the crewmember is lying, and attempt to learn the truth. This could be a large cover-up with a player attempting to hide behind some valid rulings to kill a player. From here, the officer Should be allowed to assume suspicion, and gather info from bystanders, or even arrest the individual until their claims are true. you are literally dragging a dead body around. Just because that MAKES the valid because they said the word doesn't mean that its in fact TRUE that they said the word and I should have that notion of trust to put into you.

the third option is the nuclear option of arresting the individual for murder, and then leaving the body to rot. All you saw was a murder, and all you need to do as Security officer #1 is arrest the wrong-doer. The dead guy isn't the concern, its the guy that murdered the dead guy.

third option is braindead but sec players will think like this and thats why its added. SO! whats the best option? lets look at the other two valid options and how they differ.

The most obvious one would be WGW. it differs from ligger on the sole notion that WGW is GENERALLY spoken on the radio. Its broadcasted publicly to EVERYONE, therefore EVERYONE is in the loop this guys valid for that. If a crewmember said he read WGW in a local scenario, which is very VERY uncommon, its highly unbelievable given that the whole point of it is to say it over the radio to capture the shock of the entire playerbase at that moment. not just one or two people.

The less talked about, but more relatable one is the mimes vow of silence being broken. When this happens, a mime is valid, thats how it has always been. This is usually followed up with one or two crewmembers announcing over the radio the mime has spoken. Thus, it becomes the crews choice, do I valid the mime for speaking, or just say fuck it and carry on. its not offensive, its an IC thing, and you dont feel an obligation to beat the fuck out of the mime. so if an officer sees that the mime was valided for speaking, most officers will do the second option, arrest the individuals beating the mime, unless its a lynch mob, and then revive the mime to see if they speak. I cant recall if it shows if the mime broke its silence or not. if it does then I mean, evidence is there. if not, its ALMOST EXACTLY like the case with the word ligger.

so, where do we go from here? I say the difference lies in the actual word, to bring all arguments back together. the mime talking isnt a reason to get pissed off and kill the mime, but its great for the mime to do some fun valid RP for the crew to play along with. The word ligger though is legit a set-off for players to kill off what they assume is a player thats playing in bad faith, which leads it all the way back to step one. What TYPE of valid are they? Valid for crew that dont like the word, or valid based off of a unspoken rule that can honestly mean very little if the crew dont feel up to it. Here is the true problem.

If the secoff does his job, now you just defended they guy that said ligger, you look bad in a players eyes. If you defend the mime speaking, you will look bad in a players IC eyes. theres a big difference there.

The more i look into this the more it becomes a bigger and bigger headache. Whats the solution to this then? Possibly add it to the list of filtered words to circumvent the headache these scenarios can cause? MSO dosent want that, but also MSO is leaving and I feel the headmins are probably gonna ban the word anyway. when you break it down, theres not a perfect solution that dosent involve removing the word, or removing the rule.

I still like my original idea of making the word NRP, and encouraging players to be more creative with their insults. If you want it out of the community, then work to positively encourage players try something different. Let them have the reason to say it, but dont expect people to want to play with you since you are clearly not here to put in the minimal effort. it dosnt ban the word, but it does condemn it. Thats to say my solution still aint perfect, but its the best attempt at a middle ground.

It feels so hollow to have a wall of text without seeing dendydoom as the poster.

[Vekter]

If we're dropping the argument about whether or not the word should just be treated as lazy bigotry, I think the answer to "Should security be able to arrest you for killing someone who said the bad word" is that it's Security's discretion.

The rules say that, from the standpoint of administrative consequences, you will not get in trouble if you kill someone who said it. They don't say anything about in-character consequences, so ultimately it's my opinion that security (and, to a greater extent, command) gets to determine if that's worth pursuing or not.

[ColonicAcid]

Ligger is an embarrassing artifact of our 4chan days and should be tossed out as we have everything else from those days.

I'm not going to talk about policy issues when I don't even play but I do want to discuss this though. At this point why is it still called /tg/station if being associated with 4chan is an embarrassment? (Forgive me if I have misconstrued what your sentence meant, but from my perspective that's what I got.) Sure there's probably a few players from that era that still play but at this point they've either had to moderate themselves or have changed from what they've used to be like.

It does make me slightly sad that the roots of this server are now seen as an embarrassment, but ultimately things change, old people being replaced quickly will see culture changes, but the foundation of what 4chan stands for is basically free speech really, and I agree with MSO. Because ultimately, just because you use a word doesn't mean other people can't call you a fucking idiot, and doesn't mean you won't face consequences from the great mediator in human culture of being a social pariah.

[RedBaronFlyer]

TG is a good example of the whole ship of Theseus paradox. I imagine the reason why it still keeps the name is because the name is iconic. I they could change the name to whatever, but there’s not really a pressing reason to do so. The server didn’t schism like Skyrat to Novastation where it is a new server but most people moved over.

Similar to how TGstation has changed, 4chan has also changed. It isn’t some free speech haven or whatever. Some boards ban some things from being said and the moderation there is becoming increasingly heavy-handed with randomly deleting posts and threads. It hasn't been what people think 4chan is for some time. The culture has also changed there as well. The people from the "golden age" of 4chan have mostly moved away and the people still there are mostly the people who flocked to it because of the stuff they heard about it. Very few are 35-45 year olds who have been posting there since their mid-teens onwards.

[Higgin]

Ligger is an embarrassing artifact of our 4chan days and should be tossed out as we have everything else from those days.

I'm not going to talk about policy issues when I don't even play but I do want to discuss this though. At this point why is it still called /tg/station if being associated with 4chan is an embarrassment? (Forgive me if I have misconstrued what your sentence meant, but from my perspective that's what I got.) Sure there's probably a few players from that era that still play but at this point they've either had to moderate themselves or have changed from what they've used to be like.

there's a name i haven't seen in years. there are a few of us!

idk. I think there's probably a legacy/brand thing to it. it's comforting and kind of cool to join into this thing that has been "tgstation" for nearly a decade and a half now, even if the channer and even particular board culture of /tg/ from back then hold much less sway now. there's also inertia. why change if we're not so much that thing from the internet hate machine and nobody is getting confused about that? lotta work to do a rebrand, and people filter in and out over the years.

I feel like spiritually there is a bit of a continuity in the demographics of people who found the game back then and now, even though a lot more these days probably found it through stuff like sseth, BPL, maybe these days people like Ook, Livrah, and other content creators. likely a pretty common overlap of interest in rpgs. still very online. more diverse. probably on average older not just because of our age requirements, but because at this point, some of us have (terrifying to think) grown up on this game. there are almost legitimately generational gaps, definitely cohorts, based on when and how you got into this shit.

overall, though, i guess i feel like it might be the case that there are a couple of things going on -
-the culture has changed
-we have (generally) changed and grown as people
-people understand /tg/station as something largely separate from even /tg/ and chan culture as both have evolved.

idk. i'd be curious how many players today have even touched 4chan, let alone any of the others, and what their lurking/posting habits were if they had. that's just not the vibe i get though.

It does make me slightly sad that the roots of this server are now seen as an embarrassment, but ultimately things change, old people being replaced quickly will see culture changes, but the foundation of what 4chan stands for is basically free speech really, and I agree with MSO. Because ultimately, just because you use a word doesn't mean other people can't call you a fucking idiot, and doesn't mean you won't face consequences from the great mediator in human culture of being a social pariah.

eh. idk. I think we're already well out ahead of just leaving it up to the culture and free speech absolutism by not allowing bigotry. with "ligger," the main questions are, "is this anything more than a fig leaf for bigotry that otherwise couldn't be expressed? is it, if so, so uncomfortably close to the IRL slur used in anger as to create a worse/exclusive environment to people who get the impression we're cool with that, whose immersion in-game and place in the community is now in question because of it? and is it of any uniquely redeeming value as it's used allegorically - perhaps exactly because of its closeness to the real-life slur and all the other associations it entails?"

i tend to come down on "often doubtful, maybe, and no."

nobody is writing To Kill A Mockingbird with this shit. i'd reckon most of the uses are heated gamer moments and, because of the carveout we've got for ligger since WGW will now get you sent to the shadow realm, shock trolling/escalation bait.

if there is some sort of sovl value in having a Forbidden Valid Word in-universe, the gmyza example from Lifeweb at least to me suggests you can have that without having OOC content tied up with it, either.

[ColonicAcid]

Hello Higgin, I did try to play but byond disabled my account and I don't have the email from 14 years ago (that long huh my account nearly finishing school) and I didn't really want to play 30 hours of random shit to unlock all the jobs (remove that shit having a wildly incompetent captain is the blood and soul of this game).

I agree that shouting nigger and ligger is there just for the shock value, and inherently you can absolutely dog whistle your way to being absolutely racist and never get banned if you're really smart about it, but I will say that someone who uses those words are an extremely easy way to see who you shouldn't interact with and/or probably murder first chance you get.

Ultimately I guess after playing servers with very little rules ala lifeweb I do think theres two ways you can go. You can have what we have here where there is nearly two decades of laws and rulings that is nearing common law territory and where you will be eternally locked into discussions about AI laws to the tiniest minutae and people complaining about dying in a video game that compared to 10 years ago has far more things for ghosts to do, or you can go the very little rules way and have gameplay mechanics that allows IC enforcement of behaviours. I like the latter, you very quickly learn who the shitters are in a community by just playing a few rounds, so people police themselves quite well. I do think that if you're not a sociopath you probably do care quite a bit about being a well liked member of a community and that usually keeps shitters thinking twice about doing something.

There's pros and cons to both, I'm not going to sit here and say my preferable option is better than the other, but from what I've seen I do like the "do whatever you want as long as you're not actually breaking laws, but be aware that your actions have consequences."

[MothNyan]

All forms of allowable specism will eventually resemble real life racism.

i wish we could just drop speciesism altogether, it's not fun

[bingusdingus]

I always thought Ligger was a lazy way of being fake racist anyways. This may sound dumb, but if there was actually a in universe reason why the word would be used by someone with some kind of historical precedent and justification why its just nigger with an L, I could see it being fine. There really isn't any through line as to why people in the SS13 Universe would use this slur other than it's OOC reference to a real slur. Based on that idea alone, I think it should be removed. It's unrealistic that humans wouldn't come up with much more creative and hurtful slurs to use to demean and other entities different than them, more creative than just changing a letter of an existing slur at least. I feel as if humanity would have gotten past being racist towards each other and left those words in the past. I like being forced to be creative when being mean rather than just using the insta-win gamer word to minmax my IC racism.

I am someone that is pro free speech, but I think Ligger was always a fucking meme, and like everything, there are people that misunderstand, and abuse it so grossly that they create distaste amongst the rest that understand using it in the right context. It exists because at the time, 4chan users found it humorous to use the word like that, much in the way that wigger gets used. It was also a time when non human players were much less abundant, and it was easy to make jokes on the non human's behalf, and it being 4chan, real life parallels to racism were easy. The community of /tg/ has changed, and so have the times in general, and even if it doesn't reflect your personal politics (like it doesn't reflect mine) if the players aren't comfortable with it, then you are out of touch with the community and disregarding their feelings for your own personal ideals.(where have I heard that before?) Much like many other games and communities, if the zeitgeist has changed, then the rules should reflect that, instead of insisting upon outdated rulings that nobody agrees with because one person that doesn't want it to change will throw a fit. I do not like censorship, but we're at a point where we have to look at the root of the issue and find out where a line can be drawn that will make as many people happy as possible because it is simply not feasible to continue on like this.

MSO continually abusing his powers to blatantly push his own radical ideology, by using it to silence people that disagree, despite the fact that he should have stepped down and handed his position to Scriptis, should be a huge red fucking flag that he will not leave until forced. It's obvious that all he wants to do is drive as much engagement and hate to his tumblr and MRA content, just judging by his actions in the past week.

I was going to say MSO should take his idea of slurs, but replacing the first letter with an L to another server. But I don't think MSO is very good at taking Ls.

[conrad]

Uh, saing ligger makes you valid.

Valid means your ass is no longer your own.

You aren't even allowed to fight back. This isn't free escalation bait.

An admin deciding to ban a secoff for "unlawfully" arresting someone who said ligger is insane. Provided they don't do shit and vomit swirlies nobody should ever care what happens.

Bonus points if the secoff used the medbay area of security to nugget them.

[conrad]

At this point why is it still called /tg/station if being associated with 4chan is an embarrassment? (Forgive me if I have misconstrued what your sentence meant, but from my perspective that's what I got.)

4chan itself changed bro, it sounds like you didn't.

[ColonicAcid]

Thanks for playing, but that only searches OPs.

Took me five seconds to search the top thread of /CPG/ and I found it.

[Archie700]

Uh, saing ligger makes you valid.

Valid means your ass is no longer your own.

You aren't even allowed to fight back. This isn't free escalation bait.

An admin deciding to ban a secoff for "unlawfully" arresting someone who said ligger is insane. Provided they don't do shit and vomit swirlies nobody should ever care what happens.

Bonus points if the secoff used the medbay area of security to nugget them.

Read the topic again. It's about security arresting people for murdering someone who said the l-word.

[oranges]

aint reading all the shit in this thread but it's obvious that if you want to valid people you have to be willing to take the lumps if sec decides you fucked up.