[Maxipat] Lopz1 - PMed and noted for yelling

[Lopz12]

BYOND account: Lopz0

Ban/note type (Server Ban/Discord Ban/Forum Ban/Note): Note

Ban/note duration: Permanent
Ban/note reason: "AAAAAA AAAAAA AAA AAAAA!!!", don't abuse TTS"
Time ban was placed: 2024-12-16 15:42:32
Server you were playing on when noted: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 245795

Why are you making this appeal? (Put an x in the boxes):
(x) - The ban/note is factually incorrect
(x) - The ban/note is not against the rules
() - The ban/note needs modification
(x) - The ban was unjustifiably harsh
() - I was permabanned and I want another chance

Why should this appeal be accepted?:

After a long while of not playing, I joined as a CE and made my way over from Arrivals to Engineering. While on my way, I saw people in the kitchen who were yelling something like "AAAAAAAAAAAA!!", which I figured must be because TTS was re-enabled sometime during that day, and at that moment I found it funny so I yelled "AAAA AAAAA AAAA!!" three times, and then moved onto engineering to get my gear. Around a minute later, while gearing up from my locker, I was privately messaged by admin "Maxipat", who first told me I was "spamming" tts, then said I was mentioning OOC in IC, then told me I was abusing it by "breaking" tts, and then switched back to it being OOC in IC. Overall, three separate accusations were made here, none of which I believe make sense or are truthful.

1.Spamming
I really, really don't believe three instances of yelling is enough to constitute spam, especially considering that I had entirely stopped doing it after those three times, and had moved on to my job when the admin contacted me.

2.OOC in IC
The first reason the admin gave for it being OOC in IC is that I had seen TTS get enabled in real time, and done it as a reaction to that OOC event. This is untrue, as TTS had been enabled ever since I arrived via the shuttle. After this, the admin swapped their reason to "TTS doesn't exist in universe, you wouldn't do it if TTS wasn't there". First of all, I don't believe I, through my IC actions, made any references to TTS's existence as an OOC mechanic. Secondly, TTS is supposed to be the characters voices that exist IC, as far as I'm aware. When someone says "AAAAH", the in-universe characters hear the sound of a person yelling, and so do we, as players, through TTS. That is how sound works.

3.Breaking TTS
This was by far the most confusing reason, as when I inquired for an explanation for it, the admin instead switched back to the OOC in IC accusation, and then suddenly closed the ticket before I was able to ask further. Here, the admin says that if I had said "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" instead of "AAAA AAAA AAAA", it would be fine as the latter apparently "broke" tts while the former didn't. I still have no idea what the reason for this judgement is. When you type "AAAAAAAAAAAAA", your character says one big aaah, and when you type "AAAA AAAA AAAA", your character says three smaller aaahs. I am still completely incapable of seeing how this breaks TTS.

Overall my problem with this is that the contacting admin was extremely inconsistent with their reasonings for PMing me. They made three separate accusations, none of which I believe to be true, and then made a note stating only one of them. I also have problem with the admin's conduct, as they abruptly closed the ticket before I could receive a sensible explanation from them for a.ny of their accusations. And lastly, I don't believe this would be enough of a reason to place a note on my record, even if me yelling three times had actually broken a rule.

I will place the ticket here for easier viewing.

15:33:14: Maxipat PM'd Lopz1/(Tim Trot)
15:33:15: PM From Maxipat: stop tts spamming
15:33:48: Reply PM from-Lopz1: I said "AAA AAAA AAAA" thrice? I really doubt three instances of a single sentence is enough to constitute spam
15:34:23: PM From Maxipat: sure, then tell me why your character IC started screaming the moment TTS got brought back ooc
15:34:52: Reply PM from-Lopz1: it was available since I joined, which was like 2-3 minutes ago
15:37:51: PM From Maxipat: does it matter in your justification of abusing tts? its ooc in ic
15:38:53: Reply PM from-Lopz1: How is yelling OOC
15:39:37: PM From Maxipat: its not yelling, it's abusing tts in a particular way that breaks it. if you screamed with emote or just wrote AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA it would be different.
15:41:16: Reply PM from-Lopz1: I mean I don't see how it breaks tts either for it to say "AAAH" thrice but I had entirely lost interest in saying it any further after I did it there so I guess I'll keep in mind not to do it again in the future
15:42:02: PM From Maxipat: you wouldnt do it if tts wasnt here, TTS is not a thing exisisting in-universe, so youre referring to it oocly by proxy
15:42:35: Ticket resolved!

[Maxipat]

BYOND account: Lopz0

Ban/note type (Server Ban/Discord Ban/Forum Ban/Note): Note

Ban/note duration: Permanent
Ban/note reason: "AAAAAA AAAAAA AAA AAAAA!!!", don't abuse TTS"
Time ban was placed: 2024-12-16 15:42:32
Server you were playing on when noted: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 245795

Why are you making this appeal? (Put an x in the boxes):
(x) - The ban/note is factually incorrect
(x) - The ban/note is not against the rules
() - The ban/note needs modification
(x) - The ban was unjustifiably harsh
() - I was permabanned and I want another chance

Why should this appeal be accepted?:

After a long while of not playing, I joined as a CE and made my way over from Arrivals to Engineering. While on my way, I saw people in the kitchen who were yelling something like "AAAAAAAAAAAA!!", which I figured must be because TTS was re-enabled sometime during that day, and at that moment I found it funny so I yelled "AAAA AAAAA AAAA!!" three times, and then moved onto engineering to get my gear. Around a minute later, while gearing up from my locker, I was privately messaged by admin "Maxipat", who first told me I was "spamming" tts, then said I was mentioning OOC in IC, then told me I was abusing it by "breaking" tts, and then switched back to it being OOC in IC. Overall, three separate accusations were made here, none of which I believe make sense or are truthful.

1.Spamming
I really, really don't believe three instances of yelling is enough to constitute spam, especially considering that I had entirely stopped doing it after those three times, and had moved on to my job when the admin contacted me.

2.OOC in IC
The first reason the admin gave for it being OOC in IC is that I had seen TTS get enabled in real time, and done it as a reaction to that OOC event. This is untrue, as TTS had been enabled ever since I arrived via the shuttle. After this, the admin swapped their reason to "TTS doesn't exist in universe, you wouldn't do it if TTS wasn't there". First of all, I don't believe I, through my IC actions, made any references to TTS's existence as an OOC mechanic. Secondly, TTS is supposed to be the characters voices that exist IC, as far as I'm aware. When someone says "AAAAH", the in-universe characters hear the sound of a person yelling, and so do we, as players, through TTS. That is how sound works.

3.Breaking TTS
This was by far the most confusing reason, as when I inquired for an explanation for it, the admin instead switched back to the OOC in IC accusation, and then suddenly closed the ticket before I was able to ask further. Here, the admin says that if I had said "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" instead of "AAAA AAAA AAAA", it would be fine as the latter apparently "broke" tts while the former didn't. I still have no idea what the reason for this judgement is. When you type "AAAAAAAAAAAAA", your character says one big aaah, and when you type "AAAA AAAA AAAA", your character says three smaller aaahs. I am still completely incapable of seeing how this breaks TTS.

Overall my problem with this is that the contacting admin was extremely inconsistent with their reasonings for PMing me. They made three separate accusations, none of which I believe to be true, and then made a note stating only one of them. I also have problem with the admin's conduct, as they abruptly closed the ticket before I could receive a sensible explanation from them for a.ny of their accusations. And lastly, I don't believe this would be enough of a reason to place a note on my record, even if me yelling three times had actually broken a rule.

I will place the ticket here for easier viewing.

15:33:14: Maxipat PM'd Lopz1/(Tim Trot)
15:33:15: PM From Maxipat: stop tts spamming
15:33:48: Reply PM from-Lopz1: I said "AAA AAAA AAAA" thrice? I really doubt three instances of a single sentence is enough to constitute spam
15:34:23: PM From Maxipat: sure, then tell me why your character IC started screaming the moment TTS got brought back ooc
15:34:52: Reply PM from-Lopz1: it was available since I joined, which was like 2-3 minutes ago
15:37:51: PM From Maxipat: does it matter in your justification of abusing tts? its ooc in ic
15:38:53: Reply PM from-Lopz1: How is yelling OOC
15:39:37: PM From Maxipat: its not yelling, it's abusing tts in a particular way that breaks it. if you screamed with emote or just wrote AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA it would be different.
15:41:16: Reply PM from-Lopz1: I mean I don't see how it breaks tts either for it to say "AAAH" thrice but I had entirely lost interest in saying it any further after I did it there so I guess I'll keep in mind not to do it again in the future
15:42:02: PM From Maxipat: you wouldnt do it if tts wasnt here, TTS is not a thing exisisting in-universe, so youre referring to it oocly by proxy
15:42:35: Ticket resolved!

Hi! Thanks for appealing. I'll try to re-iterate why i think the note should be applied in this situation.

1. Spamming:
This is something i can half-agree on, 3 times is not "a lot", but then we have anti-spam measures in place so you would get muted if you kept doing it. Despite that the note is not mentioning the spam, i'll admit that i just copy-pasted the initial bwoink i used for several other people i bwoinked that round for exactly the same thing.

2. OOC in IC:
It's been traditionally considered and ruled before that using TTS just to generate noise, without any other purpose is OOC. As i mentioned i bwoinked several people that round and many more before when TTS was on in the past. There's difference between your character screaming AAAAAAAAA or "AAAAH" when something happens and you typing in AAAAA AAAAAAAA AAAAAA several times just so the sound is made. I even tried to help you out from this by asking you for your IC justification for screaming, but i never got an answer.

3. Breaking TTS
Yes it breaks TTS, the way TTS pronounces long aaaaaa with breaks or comas is not a way it's intended to, which you can even hear (or could hear? There's new system for it so it might work better now) as the voice turns kinda robotic and cracks. Again, not something i put in the note.

4. I closed the ticket because you said "but I had entirely lost interest in saying it any further after I did it there so I guess I'll keep in mind not to do it again in the future". I considered this as an "apology" and that the issue is understood so i closed the ticket after writing the note.

5. This headmin term puts strong emphasis on enforcing OOC in IC, especially on terry where rule enforcement in this area is lacking. Out of all people i bwoinked, only people that said it once didn't get noted (if they didnt have previous notes about it), but they still got verbal warnings.

From note appeal guide:

Notes are remarks about players added to player's files in order to help keep track of player behavior, trends, as well as admin interactions with players. Notes have many uses and are not exclusively used to record rule breaking behavior, but we do recognize that their existence can seem like a black mark on the player.

For those reasons, notes can be appealed if they match one of the following two cases:

1. The note is factually or materially incorrect.
   1. There must be a difference between how an admin who knew all the facts would view you vs how an admin who only had the note to go on would view you. If you were being a shit but the note didn't correctly detail exactly how you were being a shit, an appeal nitpicking this detail is unlikely to be granted.
   2. Statements that are clearly pure opinion on the admins part can not be incorrect (because that is what the admin actually believes), but may be appealed under case 2 below.
   3. Appealed bans are only factually incorrect if the conditions around ban itself was incorrect. Getting unbanned because you apologized or similar reasons is not grounds to have the auto-generated note about the ban removed. Likewise: getting unbanned because you broke the rules but the admin or a headmin later determined that a ban was "too much" is not grounds to remove the ban's note.
   4. Notes appealed under this rule may be amended rather than removed.
   5. Notes appealed under this rule will generally be more successful if appealing players offers suggested rewording that they feel properly accounts for nuances without minimizing what the note is trying to highlight. Understand that we have to balance keeping notes short and succinct with accurately reflecting the situation.
2. The note's contents or existence is unjustifiably harsh to the player's standing in the eyes of admins reading the notes.
   1. Notes that contain admin opinions that unfairly paint the player in a bad light are one example.
      1. Emphasis on the phrase "unfairly". If you're repeatedly a shitter and an admin calls you a shitter in a note just take the hint and improve on not being a shitter

-by MSO

As i believe the note is not unfair, harsh or factually incorrect, this appeal is DENIED. Feel free to ask for headmin review if you still disagree.

[Lopz12]

Hi, thanks for replying.

I even tried to help you out from this by asking you for your IC justification for screaming, but i never got an an

My IC reason for me yelling would be that I saw other people yelling, found it funny, and joined in. This is a thing that often happens in real life, like people seeing others laughing and joining in, or even in the form of mass hysteria, where people see a group dancing and join in without an apparent reason.

Yes it breaks TTS, the way TTS pronounces long aaaaaa with breaks or comas is not a way it's intended to, which you can even hear (or could hear? There's new system for it so it might work better now) as the voice turns kinda robotic and cracks. Again, not something i put in the note.

I don't think there is a way for any player, without being explicitly told by admins, to interpret the sounds as "broken" as it really does just appear as a person yelling. As for the "robotic and cracking" part, sounding janky is a well known and inherent trait of TTS.

I still don't believe the reasons to be accurate, and don't think that this would be severe enough of a rule break to warrant a note even if they were. I would like a headmin review, please.

[iamgoofball]

hi, TTS dev here, "aaa,aaa,aaa" making a screaming noise is not an issue with the system, it's just how it works

there is no actual negative downside to it, it doesn't excessively tax the TTS system

there is no technical reason to be concerned about people going AAA,AAA,AAA to make their characters scream in the TTS engine

[DrAmazing343]

Technical issues were never really the issue- because ultimately when you abuse TTS it degrades the roleplaying experience of the game, as Maxi says. If you scream "AAAAAAA!" when you see John Esword in maints, that's an okay use of TTS. If you walk the halls going AAA,AAA,AAA! because it's funny then it's NRP. I agree that it's funny. I also agree with Maxi that we need to enforce this or else everyone does it and it's less funny. We're waiting on Timber's input for the final review, but these are my thoughts.

[Lopz12]

Technical issues were never really the issue- because ultimately when you abuse TTS it degrades the roleplaying experience of the game, as Maxi says. If you scream "AAAAAAA!" when you see John Esword in maints, that's an okay use of TTS. If you walk the halls going AAA,AAA,AAA! because it's funny then it's NRP. I agree that it's funny. I also agree with Maxi that we need to enforce this or else everyone does it and it's less funny. We're waiting on Timber's input for the final review, but these are my thoughts.

I don't necessarily disagree that it should be disallowed, my main point of concern is that I really don't think this is grounds for placing a permanent note on my record, seeing as it's an iffy topic not everyone is perfectly decided on, and not every player is able to independently reach the conclusion that it's lrp without being explicitly told so by admins. I believe it would've warranted a note if there was some sort of rules category called "TTS rules" that detailed what is and what isn't considered lrp by server staff, and I had directly broken these rules while being able to read them. I think simply being told it's lrp and that I shouldn't do it in the future would have been enough, as I was not provided a set of rules regarding TTS that I could reference before using it for anything.

Like, for example, saying "IV skin" to have your character spell "foreskin" is a clear case of lrp and most players would immediately be able to identify it as lrp, whereas "yelling with tts is not lrp" is a reasonable conclusion any player could reach when they have not been directly informed by admins that it is lrp.

[DrAmazing343]

My apologies, but all three headmins have agreed to uphold this note. TTS rules would be unnecessary bloat to add to what is already represented by Rule 3: This is a sandbox roleplaying server.

This is not an MRP rule, but a global one. Moreover, this is a note— it only has relevance if you do not adjust your behavior accordingly. No need to worry about it being a black stain upon your record unless you continue to go AAA,AAA,AAA,AAA!! for the funny. I know that some players will heavily disagree with this stance on TTS, but we've always sought to create an SS13 experience in which all of us can get immersed, and this Headmin team is certainly inclined to make rulings that make it so. I hope you can continue enjoying rounds and don't take the note to heart, since it's really nothing much except a little tab that says stop screaming if there's no reason to.

[Timberpoes]

Immersion is truly the operative word. It is something that I strive to see on all our servers and to me is the bare minimum of what's necessary to make the lowest levels of SS13 roleplay possible.

What is SS13?

A game where you and many other real, living people with questionable social intelligence roleplay together on the worst space station in the universe. Where aliens, shapeshifters and traitors working for rival corporations are the least of your concern. Where the greatest threat to your own existence are your own crew members.

Hungry? Come to the station canteen, where the food is definitely poisoned.
Injured? Head on down to medical, where half the medication has been relabelled as happy pills.
Discouraged? You can try taking a painkiller instead. But it wasn't a painkiller. It was LSD.
Having a bad trip? Don't worry, there's a security officer nearby to help. But he can't respond because he was murdered and replaced by a genetically modified monkey wearing his uniform.
Hallucinating? Keep calm and focus on what's real. Unfortunately for you, the supermassive black hole expanding towards you is not a hallucination. It is, infact, very real.

The emergency shuttle has been called.

Welcome to Space Station 13.

When immersion breaking behaviour occurs it reminds players that they are, infact, just playing a video game with other people. It makes it just a little bit harder for people to immerse themselves in the shared roleplay experience that makes SS13 so damn amazing.

I fully support our admin team in making these calls to maintain immersion and continue to make sure the baseline minimum that we are not a set of NRP servers is maintained.