Are botanists allowed ICly to grow deadly plants as part of their job content?

[norsvenska]

So, in a recent round on Manuel, the botanist (who was a cultist), had been growing and genetically modifying deathnettle. He did end up wiping out the entire security team in a rather comical series of events, but the security officers in deadchat raised a question.

Would they have been justified in confiscating or otherwise removing the deathnettle from the botanist?

The botanist did die later on and chimed in. I'll try to present the two sides' arguments as best I can.

The botanist asserted that growing deathnettle is akin to scientists making bombs. He said that growing deathnettle is part of his job content and that he should not have to deal with security for doing his job.

The security officers asserted that deathnettle is a deadly weapon and should be considered contraband. They dismissed the botanist's scientist bomb comparison, saying that bombs have the purpose of advancing research and are illegal to remove from the science department anyway, whereas deathnettle's sole purpose is to be used to kill.

So, would a botanist be complying with space law while growing deathnettle, or would deathnettle be considered contraband and illegal under space law?

(For the record, I observed that round and was uninvolved in the conflict)

[Vekter]

If we're asking "Is Security justified in taking away a botanist's deathnettle?", the answer is "Yes", because Security is technically justified in confiscating anything it thinks is dangerous. It is an entirely in-character issue. Admins would only get involved if the person was given a brig timer over 10 minutes or if the situation otherwise stepped out of line, ie the botanist being killed without fighting back or the botanist killing security. I would treat it like Gun Cargo. It is a thing that they have access to and technically can grow, but if security thinks there's a good reason to confiscate it beyond preemptively hindering antags, that's an IC issue. I would expect any security officer who's doing this without a reason to suspect botany as compromised to have a decent in-character explanation for doing it.

That being said, space law is not policy and this likely would never involve admins beyond situations where a rule was broken.

[Justice12354]

Nettle seeds are considered contraband in the seed vendor, for reference

[DrAmazing343]

In policy terms, you are allowed dangerous items within your workplace. Unless you are growing weapons with intent to bring them out and validhunt, you are allowed nettles in Botany the same as MD’s are allowed to carry circular saws. From an IC perspective, I’d say guncargo is an apt comparison. If you’re gonna do illegal shit, keep it on the down-low or Sec has good IC reason to do something about it because that’s their Entire Job

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I think that this particular case was a skill issue on the botanist's end. Why couldn't they have dragged a tray into the backroom of botany to grow it, and therefore keep it out of security's eyes?

Do they REALLY need to be able to grow deathnettles out in the open in front of the whole crew visible from the main halls?

But if they do, then yes, I would still say they are allowed to grow them. Were I a botanist in this situation, I would just claim that I was growing them because I wanted to use their unique needle plant trait for grafting. What is anyone going to say to that at that point?

As others have said, until it leaves the workplace, it's part of their job content.

[Ezel]

Any botanist worth their salt will attempt to kill the security officer so trying to conficate it isn't worth the effort and risk of round removal due some egostic botanist player

the job at the core has 0 reason to not grow those plants due their high damage outputs, and holy melons to just validhunt the half antag roster (cult heretic wizard)

[Vekter]

Any botanist worth their salt will attempt to kill the security officer so trying to conficate it isn't worth the effort and risk of round removal due some egostic botanist player

As long as you're following security policy (meaning you tell the botanist why you're arresting/confiscating their stuff and don't escalate to lethals), if the botanist kills you I will personally log in and ban them myself.

[Timberpoes]

Vekter will totally do it too. He's way behind on his beating quota and that botanist refuses to pick that can up.

[BrianBackslide]

As a botanist main I'm absolutely within my right to grow warcrime plants, and security is absolutely in their right to confiscate them. I don't have the right to kill security for this unless I'm an antag.

As to the secoff's argument, they act like botanical research can't be a thing, and I've used deathnettle for many more things than just killing. Prickly healing plants, door-busting/extraction tools, acid for chem mixes, etc.

If anything it's a skill issue on security's part for not literally just glancing at Hydroponics and confiscating the bioweapons. A botanist with deathnettle is your best friend against a blob too.

EDIT: I should add that having regular job content being a guaranteed valid tell is bad for the game. Even Kudzu can be "beneficial".

[mrmelbert]

As another botanist main I've always thought security officers should take "I see the botanist is growing deathnettles" more seriously, IE confiscating them (they're illegal afterall!)

But also I feel like it'll often cross the line into straight up griefing the botanist. If sec came around to steal my Nettles that I was planning on grafting to make a helpful plant, I'd be pretty peeved, especially if they didn't even let me explain WHY I was making the nettles.

If I had to compare it to anything I would compare it to geneticists making hulk. Like sec is 100% justified beating the hulk out of geneticists the moment they break a wall into a secure area, but can they necessarily beat the snot out of geneticists just for walking around with hulk?

[DrAmazing343]

This is where policy and admin discretion create a line in the sand— policy says you’re not gonna get bwoinked, but may be susceptible to IC consequences. Admin discretion says the Security Officers are allowed so long as it doesn’t cross into Rule 1/Grief which id argue silent batong confiscation brig time would be— at least on MRP. On LRP, I suppose LRPmins may be able to offer more input, but I’d certainly be inclined to ask SecOffs to at least listen to someone explaining and put them on a high risk suspect list type shit until they’re seen bringing them out and using them.

Also a gentle reminder that you ARE allowed to treat people differently if they consistently game as antag with the same strategy. You can’t preemptively nuke botany if John Weedkiller has signed on after 3 shifts of station wiping with Botany, but you can take the kid gloves off and take their shit if they try to pull the grafting excuse for the third time in a row. Better yet, involve the Head of Personnel, their boss!

There’s a lot of opportunity to be had in roleplaying around the paranoia aspect and the only thing I’m personally opposed to is either side trying at all costs to avoid roleplaying out the situation in order to “win.”

[bean_sprout]

It's both a blessing and a curse that more people don't know how botany actually works. On one hand, it makes it piss easy to grow war crime plants in plain view that superficially appear harmless.

On the other hand, as Melbert mentions above, many seemingly harmful plants can beneficially contribute to the crew, and there is sometimes a tenancy for someone who sees such plants to jump the gun a little.

With even a small level of botany knowledge and a plant analyzer, it can actually be pretty easy to tell what the botanists are really up to. Then again, for mrp purposes that might bring it's own issues.

[Vekter]

The consensus I've heard from admins looks a little like this: You can grow whatever you want as a botanist, but growing the more dangerous stuff runs the risk of Security raiding your workplace. The same rules apply as with gun cargo - if you get raided, you can't fight back beyond a little token resistance (I doubt we'll bwoink you for shoving or hitting them). Plants like killer tomatoes or kudzu are going to be the exception here because they are actively harmful just by existing.

Also, as an aside, I wish more Security teams raided Botany for growing drugs. Those are always fun interactions.

[Diasyl]

>Commit crime
>Get arrested
"WTF literally 1984"

Botany can grow deathnettles, and Security can arrest them for it. Not like they are going to shoot you to death and then bomb the Hydroponics; just sit out your 7 minutes in a cell and start growing them in a more hidden spot.

[Vekter]

>Commit crime
>Get arrested
"WTF literally 1984"

Botany can grow deathnettles, and Security can arrest them for it. Not like they are going to shoot you to death and then bomb the Hydroponics; just sit out your 7 minutes in a cell and start growing them in a more hidden spot.

I would argue that just growing deathnettles is not a briggable offense, but security can confiscate it with good IC justification.

[RedBaronFlyer]

I thought botanists growing dangerous stuff was like roboticists making combat mechs, so they are allowed to do it, but security is allowed to seize it with justification. I think bombs in sci are in a weird spot when it comes to a comparison in job weaponry because they are tied to research, with roboticists building war mechs being less so and botanists being even less than that. If anything, botanists growing stuff like exploding lemons, deathnettle, killer tomatoes, etc., would be raising eyebrows. Ideally, security wouldn't be kicking in the doors of botany for growing deathnettle every single round (which I don't typically see on manuel at least), but if you are growing that stuff, you run the risk of getting security's ire. It's the same with running something like gun cargo where security could just shrug its shoulders and not care, or they may rush over and storm cargo to cut that out ASAP before it spirals into a potential issue.

[MooCow12]

The most dangerous plants are not as instantly impactful as bombs, security cant break in and confiscate bombs inside of toxins since they are a part of job content there, just like they shouldnt be able to break into botany if they see a botanist grinding kudzu for beneficial mutations (unless they physically see that the kudzu is getting more and more harmful mutations i guess)

Being forced to wait until the product is ready to use (just like bombs) is not nearly as disastrous, bombs have an instant impact and cant be easily mitigated, most bad plants are countered by simply calling for backup at the sight of their usage and immediately dealt with.


Also….

Security biosuit, goats, weed killer, etc.


You could also pre-emptively look into counters if you think botanists are going to get out of hand, security players should know how to counter every department and get necessary supplies accordingly.

[GamerAndYeahMick]

Seems answered.