[Vekter] Pingytalk - grav gen note

[pingytalk]

BYOND account: Pingytalk

Ban/note type (Check what applies):
() - Server Ban
(X) - Note (Major/exclamation point)
() - Forum Ban
() - Discord Ban

Ban/note length: indefinite major exclamation point note
Ban/note reason:
2024-10-13 03:33:19 | Manuel | Round 240231 | Vekter | 267h Living Playtime

Used an exploit involving attaching tethers to the gravity generator to delete it from existence. Claims they did not know this would happen, has been asked not to do it again.

Time ban was placed: 2024-10-13 03:33:19
Server you were playing on when banned:Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed:Round 240231

Why are you making this appeal?(Check what applies):
(X) - The ban/note is factually incorrect
() - The ban/note is not against the rules
(X) - The ban/note needs modification
() - The ban was unjustifiably harsh
() - I was permabanned and I want another chance

Why should this appeal be accepted?: Hi all, first off, this is my first exclamation point/major note so that's a primary reason I'm concerned about this one. I rolled Spy on Manuel and (I don't have access to the round logs unfortunately so this next part is my best recollection) in the first ten minutes there was a really cool item up on the high-risk list, I think it was magillitus serum. I forget, anyway; it required trading in the Captain's Antique Lazer and I really wanted it, so I thought it would be a cool in-character spy-thing to try to steal a part of the gravity generator and "ransom" it back to the crew in trade for the antique laser gun (and a pardon!) I had seen people move around SMESes and other "immovable" items with tethers (by shortening the tether and it pulls the item you are hooked too). I tested it on the SMES in the room first to make sure it worked the way I expected it too; it did, the SMES moved perfectly in tact (and I thought about just stealing that itself but figured it was too easy to replace to be a good ransom!) didn't really think of it as being an exploit, I mean, in retrospect yea it makes sense thats a bug and not an intended feature but a tether pulling things toward you that shouldn't otherwise move is fairly straightforward logic that could just be an in-game feature. Anyway, I wanted to see what would happen if I tried to pull a piece of the gravity generator out- I assumed it would come apart piece by piece, like the old singularity matter generator and could be repaired similarly too. I pulled one piece out and it disappeared- I wondered if since it was the middle piece, if it had gone under the piece in front of it; so I tried to pull that piece. Then the whole thing just disappeared completely. At this point I kinda did realize it was a bug and it can't come apart in pieces like I thought, and I said something in chat (I think over radio, like, "I'm so sorry!" or something). Anyway, I got fairly lynched for it (at least I think thats how I died, I dunno, but I died shortly later) and an admin spawned in a new gravity generator. Later after that, Vekter messages me telling me I exploited and that not to do it again. I told Vekter what happened, and that I was a spy, and they put the above note on.

I think the above note is way too harsh for what happened; first off, I had a very roleplay reason for doing what I did, on Manuel, as an antagonist. If I was on Terry, I woulda just messed up the SM or something or murderboned if I was just trying to cause chaos. Instead, I tried to do a roleplay thing and ransom something vital to the crew back to them knowing full well I might just immediately get lynched and lose my antag round which I would have accepted. (and in fact, I did get immediately lynched and lose the antag round.) Second, its a major note; and it doesn't say anywhere in the note that I was an antag which is really misleading. Particularly, because MRP allows mass station sabotage for restricted antagonists (spy, though its technically not listed I assume falls into this category) as long as you don't explicitly try to maximize death. What I did on its own couldn't even kill anyone let alone maximize death. I just find it rough getting a major note for something I did as an antag, that I was allowed to do, that happened to cause a bug to occur- when I would have been explicitly allowed to do that in a bunch of other different ways available to me. (If I had blown up the SM, or the grav gen, that would have been fine. It was trying to do it in a roleplay way to hide the part that got me in trouble.)

I would prefer the note be removed entirely as I think if you look at the logs you'll see it was clearly unintentional and I had a bunch of other options available to me as an antagonist for even greater harm/chaos if I wanted too, not to mention it got me immediately (fairly) killed and the admin replaced the grav-gen. However, if removing it isn't an option, please at least modify it to a minor note and include something along the lines of "as an antag" or "as a spy", and preferably even my intent; "to ransom it". Also possibly consider including how it actually affected the round: three admins were on, the issue was immediately fixed by replacing the gravity gen, and I got round removed. Thank you!

P.S. I tried my best to be as accurate as possible based on memory, but as the logs are no longer public perfect accuracy is hard. Feel free to post the logs here if there are any inconsistencies! (and I'm kicking myself for not saving the chat log as soon as Vekter messaged me, but I didn't realize Vekter was going to give me a note (let alone one that harsh) at all until it was applied much, much later after Vekter messaged me. I tried to contact Vekter as soon as I saw the note, and Vekter was gone)

[Vekter]

Hi, the note exists as a record of our discussion in case you're found abusing this exploit again. We have to track this because bug exploits are a severe breach of server rules and, even if your first instance of doing this was an accident, we need to make sure that other admins know if you end up doing it again.

Please understand that your antag status here is completely irrelevant; other admins are not going to read this and think that you were griefing. If it was relevant, I would have mentioned it.

Can you explain to me how you feel that this note is too harsh, preferably in much fewer words?

[pingytalk]

I mean, I've found and reported other bugs in the past and not abused them- I reported a bug that turned floors into invincible bugged walls, I reported a wizard bug (both ahelp and github). By the logic of just needing to track a history of using bug exploits, its unfair to only keep track of *accidental* ones as if they were malicious, and not keep track in the same place a positive history of explicitly finding and reporting bugs instead of abusing them. You could phrase it literally the same way as this note by Iain0, and just as short, and I would be totally fine with it:

2024-08-04 23:54:33 | Terry | Round 233570 | Iain0 | 7h Living Playtime
Now aware of the heretic sacrifice memory loss mechanic after a slip (in front of their sacrificer) that had no consequences.

I said multiple times why I think it was too harsh; front-loaded at the beginning of my appeal. 1) its an exclamation point major note 2) it makes no mention of the circumstances, and despite your insistence that "other admins are not going to read this and think that you were griefing" its pretty clear from this interaction alone there's no reliable way to interpret what admins are going to read or not read and how they'll interpret it. Just put more facts in at the very least; I was an antag, it was objectively non-malicious (as I could have within the rules done way more malicious things, I chose to do that with my antag roll for RP).

[Vekter]

Alright, those are fair points. I can see how that might be concerning. I'll offer to rewrite the note as such:

"Accidentally found an exploit involving using tethers on the gravity generator to delete it. Had reason to believe this would only move the individual pieces of the multi-tile structure, not delete them. This is a tracking note - player has been warned that this is an exploit and shouldn't be using it in the future."

Severity (those exclamation points) is generally meaningless but I can lower it to minor if you'd like.

[pingytalk]

that's perfect and totally fair. thank you, I have zero intention of ever messing with tether pulling again, just wanted it to be obvious it wasn't intentional grief for the sake of grief (especially on MRP)

thank you!!

[Vekter]

that's perfect and totally fair. thank you, I have zero intention of ever messing with tether pulling again, just wanted it to be obvious it wasn't intentional grief for the sake of grief (especially on MRP)

thank you!!

For what it's worth, the person who coded it is having trouble replicating the issue, so it's possible this was just something fucky. I would stick to things you know it works on and, if you notice it happen again, please adminhelp so we can find out what caused it.

I have amended the note.