[Iain0] Cillian69 - $10 per ban

Cillian69 · Post by **Cillian69** » Mon Aug 05, 2024 12:44 am #737003

BYOND account: Cillian69

Ban/note type (Check what applies):
(x) - Server Ban
() - Note
() - Forum Ban
() - Discord Ban

Ban/note length: 2 days
Ban/note reason: Escalation ; Turned up with a mech in cargo, unloaded on a -90hp cultist the warden was killing. After this, warden krava magas another player, and warden / 3rd player shove the fallen 2nd player. Opens fire on the group hitting the warden, killing the first place, then flexes and sets off in persuit of the second player, attacks (some valid return fire here) and kills them two. This is two murders based on one krav maga attack and a shove, there isn't even and offensive act going on.
Time ban was placed: Right now
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed:233574

Why are you making this appeal?(Check what applies):
(x) - The ban/note is factually incorrect
() - The ban/note is not against the rules
() - The ban/note needs modification
(x) - The ban was unjustifiably harsh
() - I was permabanned and I want another chance

Why should this appeal be accepted?: To begin with, you got the entire order of events COMPLETELY wrong somehow, despite having logs. I'll break down exactly how I remember it going. Keep in mind, my character is mute so I literally cannot communicate with any of these people.

- I heard there were lings or something, so I went into robo and made a gygax with an LMG and shotgun for some awesome vigilante justice. Booyah.
- Walked through the main halls until I reached cargo.
- Warden was shoving a cargo tech.
- Warden was struggling and was getting punched by an assistant, who punched him and ran away once or twice.
- Seeing the warden was struggling, I shot the cargo tech he was originally chasing with one burst of an LMG so he'd stop moving.
- I think there was some friendly fire / stray bullets hit the others, because soon after the assistant starting strafing around my mech and hitting it. I shot them in the face with a shotgun in response.
- Right after they were shot, Vents-Hot-Air, a miner, also began hitting me with his crusher. I shot him also.
- I was super confused on why the heck these two were out for my blood, but I just walked away to the shuttle since the warden was nowhere in sight at this point.

I never UNLOADED on anyone to begin with. I shot the downed cargo tech ONE time, I clicked ONCE, with some stray bullets hitting the others. Then you say I fucking open fire on the ENTIRE group like a maniac? I literally have no idea what you mean because I didn't even touch my weapons until I was getting attacked. I wish I had a way of clipping it, because I did not mean to intentionally escalate to fucking blasting three people. I don't play this game just so I can make a mech, be malicious and shoot people for absolutely no reason just to ruin all their fun. The fact that you're just telling me a completely different story than what I myself experienced is just absolutely driving me mad.

Post by **iain0** » Mon Aug 05, 2024 2:49 am #737027

Hi there, thanks for your appeal.

On the list of things you gave, the mech and hearing lings is all cool, good response to events, i'll dispute the 'warden struggling' part but we'll get on to that, I also note that your mech took no damage from anything until late on in these events.

I'm going to dump the whole logs as a breakdown of the story as I read it, however firstly here's every mention of the mech

Spoiler:

In here is mostly offensive actions of the mech, there is a mime (presumably) hitting the mech with a ban hammer at 22:34, at the end Vents-Hot-Air engages you with a PKC, which will be valid as we'll see, and another player in fact attacks you, but this is all at the conclusion of the events for which you'll be banned, so in terms of impacts on the mech prior to the events here, you got hit by a mime with a ban hammer as far as i can see. Any actions taken by players will show up in the next section. If you can find something else, let me know.
The events we'll be investigating start at 22:36, so it's only actions prior to this that would factor into explaining this story, everything else would be in the story below.

Which is the breakdown of the actions of all parties involved. This is based on a combination of game and attack logs for the timeperiod shown (feel free to indicate any prior actions that might be relevant that are missed), the logs are filtered by various players names in order to fully catch mob side events, the regular expression used was "(Vents-Hot-Air|Mateo Harrow|Surf..N..Turf|Atropos|Vinny Helsing|Khaled Samer)" which largely breaks down to...

Mech Shootup?
Starring (in regular expression order)
Vents-Hot-Air as "The 2nd Player"
Mateo Harrow as "The random assistant" (?)
Surf-'N'-Turf as "THE MECH"
Atropos ''UnRobust'' as "The 3rd player"
Vinny Helsing as "The dead meat cultist" (spoilers!)
Khaled Samer as "The Warden"

Act One - The foolishness of tomfoolery

Spoiler:

Scene setting ; the warden is robusting the cultist, Vents and Atropos are here messing around with masks and plushies, you're coughing and punching a floor.

Spoiler:

This is the contentious part ; Atropos tables the warden. I did ask why this happened during my investigation as typically, as your case was being made, messing with security is a pretty good way to make yourself super valid, i mean, defending the sec force can't be the wrong thing to do right? But lets note the time this happens and come back to this - at 22:37:20ish Atropos tables the warden, once. Apparently the warden tends to do this to people and they have a "thing", i didn't look into this, but advised that they ahelp if sec are baiting a response so i can forewarn the sec officer that if they do something that baits a response, any consequences (like other seccies or crew siding with sec) might land on them. Sec shouldn't really be screwing with the crew in a way that makes it valid for the crew to screw with sec. It's technically okay but it very often gets out of hand due to sec's status and that should be a line trodden very carefully. Or not at all. Either way, this is the assault on the warden.

Spoiler:

Basically nothing comes of it, the warden krav magas both Atropos and Vents who seem largely to just try evade the situation and dont make it any worse, the warden goes back to beating up the cultist who i suspect is getting beaten up for putting SM shards in front of brig or something. I didn't look into this story line either, but at this point the cultist is in deep crit at -72 health
Act Two - Mech Man, Hero or Villain?

Spoiler:

BAM - you got em, mech saves the day and heroically murders the cultist. This is perhaps fine under rule 4 but you're late to the party anyway and the warden has already basically done all the work. Kill stealer (not serious). Meanwhile Atropos and Vents are messing around with plushies and stuff again.

Spoiler:

The warden leg sweeps Vents, Atropos shoves Vents, the Warden shoves Vents. Lets be clear on that, the warden non lethally incapacitates someone, and then two people shove the fallen person, probably just stunning them, i dont really know whats up with this turn of events but ultimately nothing lethal or significant is really happening in my opinion. Not enough to make this seem reasonable to me

Spoiler:

BAM, executed. Of note no-one else even gets a log line in here. No incap, no talking, straight to murder. Over the warden kraving and some shoves on a fallen person, 22:37:20 was the tabling, we're at 22:38:06 when this happens, thats a good 45 seconds later without anyone really caring about the Vents/Atropos combo, or anything happening until this shove. And from this you go straight to killing them. You also wing the warden. It's not even the person the warden kraved that you attack, its someone who shoved the downed person?

Spoiler:

The aftermath. The assistant is here and seems a bit confused, or outraged, or something. Antheraea tries to carry off the dead meat cultist and gets warden slapped for it. You flex over your mech prowess.

Spoiler:

Vents attacks you, first time you've been attacked and is in response to you brutally and suddenly just gunning down Atropos. You return fire and in the process manage to shoot Antherea who was recovering the body, the assistant and the warden. Going a bit ham here huh, thats now 5 people you've shot. You murder Vents.

Spoiler:

The assistant, who has just watched you kill two people and spray three others with bullets attacks. You murder them too. Despite being in a superior mech with enough firepower to down them easily, all you say is "erm", probably in reaction to your murders, before opening fire quite happily on the person you just caught in your spray. You seem rogue as all hell.

You're right, I might have missed the mark, this should probably have been a 3 day ban.

Please evidence and justify why you feel this is unfair.

Cillian69 · Post by **Cillian69** » Mon Aug 05, 2024 12:25 pm #737163

Maybe I did just remember the order of events wrong. I think the first time I shot, the cultie was in the top left corner of the room, at the door into cargo. The second time must have been when we were all gathered around his body on the floor, where I think I shot at him while he was on the floor, but it instead went and hit the others, unsurprisingly. Any time I shot after this point was after I myself was getting hit.

The logs are just totally confusing me. I remember Atropos (the first person I killed) hitting me with something that was definitely making sparks fly out of my mech. I thought Atropos was the random assistant that was smacking me, but apparently not? Apparently that person was a third person I killed, even though I only remember two? Am I retarded or something? Looking at the logs, it makes it just look like I absolutely executed them for no reason, which I just... didn't. I'm not THAT dumb. I don't know how to argue against the logs because they just do not at all correlate with my memory of last night paint me as being absolutely rogue. I so wish I could look back at what it looked like from my perspective, so I could see whether the logs are misleading or I'm just dumb as rocks. I guess from now on, if I am being attacked by someone I can't confirm as a bad guy, I'll just curl up into a ball and let them rip my head off.

Also, just my luck one of the people I killed was an admin. There is no hope for me. I'll see you in two days, or three if you're feeling particularly devilish. I hope this is resolved and no one is upset :)

Post by **iain0** » Mon Aug 05, 2024 2:31 pm #737199

Yeah, I think so, lot of what you said happened but not in the order that you seemed to be suggesting, and from an objective perspective the instigation for what happens isn't really there ; in a very short form Atropos shoves a probably horizontal Vents and 2 minutes later three people are dead.

I couldn't find anything for people hitting the mech that would initiate all this, why I did a scan on just the mech its self first, I tried all sorts of searches to try figure out what it was at the time, but never could, and the combined logs didn't give me any insights either.

I'm not allowed to extend bans off an appeal, this is mostly a good rule as it stops people being scared out of appealing, so the ban would remain at two days. I'm kinda fine with 2 days anyway, sorry assistant I didn't pick up on at the time, but you did something that seems silly, you got your punishment, we got to have a good chat about things and maybe you finally see where I'm coming from here, hopefully thats all the important things touched on in the end. I specifically suggested you appeal if you felt it wasn't fair, we'd been at it for a while in the ticket and we'd stopped making any progress, the forum format of being able to dump all the evidence and dissect it piece by piece can be useful to break down the story bit by bit and see where we disagree on anything.

You are very welcome to request a headmin review if you think things are off here ; you seem a bit unsure about what the logs are saying as well as the reference to a fellow admin ; I've not doctored the logs (and would expect to be deadminned if did that sorta thing) and there's no preferential treatment here, the escalation into Atropos leading to 3 kills is just too much regardless of who those people were IMO, but if you have any doubts then the headmins exist to give their objective review and would look into anything raised.

That said I think you're coming around to seeing where I'm coming from and maybe it's all just some heat of the moment and bad recollection of events, I'm not sure, I just couldn't quite get the pieces to fit in a way that defended your actions ; i deliberately included the early tabling of the warden just because thats the best match I could find for anything about you defending the warden or them being in trouble, but for reasons of timing and context moving on, i dont think this really is relevant to justification by the time the shooting starts.

And of course you dont need to lie down and die, but you do need to be careful what you start, bear in mind that murder is considered a pretty extreme act in this game certainly by the rules, it's the "last option" kinda thing outside of murdering obvious antags, and in all this there's a lack of that ; that is, you're in a big ass mech with a big ole murder weapon, of all the people in this encounter you're the least vulnerable to being randomly jumped, you cant be trivially stunned, knocked down, disarmed or otherwise made unable to respond to events, you have "some" time and options before your window to respond closes and you don't really try other options instead just jumping to killing.

I doubt anyone is particularly upset, deaths can be kinda annoying in the moment but most seasoned players will just weather the experiences in the longer term, certainly no problems from this end, just hope some of this makes sense and sinks in.

Anyway, over to you, don't see anything presented here that particularly changes my world view on this event or the conclusion of a two day ban, if you wish to escalate this please let me know, otherwise I'll close this out.

Cillian69 · Post by **Cillian69** » Mon Aug 05, 2024 7:31 pm #737359

I think it's fine to just close it !

/tg/Station 13

[Iain0] Cillian69 - $10 per ban

[Iain0] Cillian69 - $10 per ban

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