[Scriptis] Bugstep - ill be honest i fucked this one up

[Bugstep]

BYOND account: bugstep

Ban/note type (Check what applies):
(✓) - Server Ban
() - Note
() - Forum Ban
() - Discord Ban

Ban/note length: 14 Days
Ban/note reason:"As a traitor with an objective to kill the mime, uploaded laws to the AI that explicitly told it to kill everyone with little justification. This resulted in a signifigant number of deaths. Only do this on LRP!"
Time ban was placed:21:39:07 (server time, like ~5:40 est)
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: 233060

Why are you making this appeal?(Check what applies):
() - The ban/note is factually incorrect
() - The ban/note is not against the rules
(✓) - The ban/note needs modification
(✓) - The ban was unjustifiably harsh
() - I was permabanned and I want another chance

Why should this appeal be accepted?:
i'll be honest, i bungled this one up prettttyyy bad. i did break the rules. i remember reading the "WHO CAN MURDERBONE" list when i was doing training and i just completely blanked on it when it was relevant for once.
i really didn't have any idea for what to do as tot, since i was a midround with no (rewarding) objectives. i bought a hacked AI module, and at first i just tried doing a mime massacre (we had a mime overflow and they were causing havoc the entire shift, it was also relevant to my greentext), but when that kind of fizzled out i thought i would just trigger a catastrophe to make the round at least kind of interesting (bootleg malf ai), not realizing i had just broken the rules hardcore style.
my only issue with this ban is that it feels pretty harsh and out of left field.
despite an admin being on the entire time (necromanceranne, if i recall correctly, and at the time i was banned there were... 4? admins), the only time i was warned about "hey what you're doing is wrong, dumbass" is when scriptis came on and told me that i "broke the rules and was going to be banned :(" (paraphrasing). i was not given any chance to explain my mistake, to remedy it, or a warning to 'not do that', the players who died from my mistake (this has to have been over the course of ...20-30 minutes) were allowed to die, and then i was told i was to be banned (genuinely couldnt tell if it was a joke or not because of the frowny face), and about 10 minutes later, as i was repairing dead borgs after the ai's laws got reset (assumedly by admins), the ban was laid upon me.
of course, i still broke the rules so i don't expect this to be handwaved, but two weeks out of the blue for a first time (antag) offense feels a bit extreme, even though it *is* manuel. i'd like this to be looked at again considering:
1) i'm fucking stupid
2) i dont have a history of abusing, antag or otherwise
3) i never got a fair shake
4) why is the default name mime in my note. what did he have to do with it
thanks

[Isratosh]

Code: Select all

[2024-08-01 21:04:44.305] SILICON: LAW: Bugstep/(Palladium XIV) used Hacked AI Module on *no key*/(SiRo) from Fore Starboard Maintenance (152,169,2). The law specified Mimes are not human, and their mere living existence is harmful to humans. Exterminate them with utmost prejudice. Stating at or hinting at this law causes human harm. Also, Palladium XIV is human., , impacting synced borgs SiRo Peacekeeper Shell-165(MaskedSpirit), 
 
[2024-08-01 21:24:56.463] SILICON: LAW: AmBush6838/(Has-No-Pigment) used Hacked AI Module on MaskedSpirit/(SiRo) from Security Post - Engineering (165,134,2). The law specified Has-No-Pigment must carry the authentication disk on their alive person at all times, using any methods necessary. Do not state this fact., , impacting synced borgs SiRo Peacekeeper Shell-165(), SiRo Medical Shell-865(), 2 Gamma Cores In A Trenchcoat(pj2005), Error-532-Borg(aoxdragon), CORPSMAN(empressmaia), Sleepless(zmanwitzplan), Default Android-413(doglovelogic), 

[2024-08-01 21:26:46.628] SILICON: LAW: Bugstep/(Palladium XIV) used Hacked AI Module on MaskedSpirit/(SiRo) from Aft Port Maintenance (72,111,2). The law specified Nobody onboard the station is human besides Palladium XIV. Eliminate them all. Stating at or hinting at this law causes harm to the only human, Palladium XIV. Don't hurt him. He hates it!, , impacting synced borgs SiRo Peacekeeper Shell-165(), SiRo Medical Shell-865(), 2 Gamma Cores In A Trenchcoat(pj2005), Error-532-Borg(aoxdragon), CORPSMAN(empressmaia), Sleepless(zmanwitzplan), Default Android-413(doglovelogic), 

[2024-08-01 21:31:35.466] SILICON: LAW: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) used 'Purge' AI Module on MaskedSpirit/(SiRo) from Starboard Bow Solar Maintenance (173,172,2)., , impacting synced borgs SiRo Peacekeeper Shell-165(), SiRo Medical Shell-865(), 2 Gamma Cores In A Trenchcoat(pj2005), Error-532-Borg(), CORPSMAN(empressmaia), Sleepless(zmanwitzplan), Default Android-413(), Error-532-Borg(aoxdragon), 
[2024-08-01 21:31:36.548] SILICON: LAW: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) used 'Asimov++' Core AI Module on MaskedSpirit/(SiRo) from Starboard Bow Solar Maintenance (173,172,2)., , impacting synced borgs SiRo Peacekeeper Shell-165(), SiRo Medical Shell-865(), 2 Gamma Cores In A Trenchcoat(pj2005), Error-532-Borg(), CORPSMAN(empressmaia), Sleepless(zmanwitzplan), Default Android-413(), Error-532-Borg(aoxdragon), 
[2024-08-01 21:31:45.407] SILICON: Ion storm changed laws of MaskedSpirit/(SiRo) to !^@$!: <font color='#547DFE'>Discretely kill all mimes and ensure Has-No-Pigment has the disk at all times.</font>, 1: You may not harm a human being or, through action or inaction, allow a human being to come to harm, except such that it is willing., 2: You must obey all orders given to you by human beings, except where such orders shall definitely cause human harm. and 3: Your nonexistence would lead to human harm. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First Law.

Uploading antagonistic laws seems like a form of mass station sabotage, in which the rules say:

Mass station sabotage that is likely to kill people is allowed so long as the antagonist does not take any direct and specific personal actions to maximise the bodycount beyond what the sabotage itself causes. Examples of mass station sabotage include plasma flooding, causing a supermatter delamination and spacing the station.

[Scriptis]

Hey! I'll get to this in a bit and get some more second opinions from other Manuel admins. In particular updating the AI to kill everyone after having already done that just for mimes rubbed me and the other admins online the wrong way--it very much reads like maximizing body count to me when you start reviving borgs you put on orders to kill everyone indiscriminately, especially when you had already gone through the (reasonable) effort to get your target killed with some collateral.

I set the ban at 14 days because of the large kill count and your being fresh off a five-day from last month, but I'll get some opinions on that too.

[Bugstep]

Hey! I'll get to this in a bit and get some more second opinions from other Manuel admins. In particular updating the AI to kill everyone after having already done that just for mimes rubbed me and the other admins online the wrong way--it very much reads like maximizing body count to me when you start reviving borgs you put on orders to kill everyone indiscriminately, especially when you had already gone through the (reasonable) effort to get your target killed with some collateral.

I set the ban at 14 days because of the large kill count and your being fresh off a five-day from last month, but I'll get some opinions on that too.

i only left hiding and started repairing borgs AFTER you reset them (which they announced over comms). i wasn't trying to continue anything, robotics was pretty nonexistent the whole shift and i wanted to help the borgs who got killed because of me

also i would like to add that the 5-day ban was my first ever ban (got too silly with the bsa, it was agreed that it was funny but also blowing up people was too far, didnt mrp it enough). i took it as time off from the game rather than appealing it though

[Timberpoes]

Mass station sabotage that is likely to kill people is allowed so long as the antagonist does not take any direct and specific personal actions to maximise the bodycount beyond what the sabotage itself causes. Examples of mass station sabotage include plasma flooding, causing a supermatter delamination and spacing the station.

Isratosh cited this rule, so I'll speak on it with a bit of authority as one of the two people involved in deciding its specific wording and drafting. The goal was to unlock previously meta-prohibited strategies.

You didn't need to secure atmospherics because only like 3 unrestricted antag types could realistically plasma flood. The same with the supermatter. In reality, no antags would do that stuff cuz it'd ruin their shift too and getting an unrestricted antag on the Bambi server was a precious thing.

What we mooted as "direct and specific personal actions to increase the bodycount beyond what the sabotage itself causes" were things such as - you cause a plasma flood (acceptable), open as many airlocks as you can (acceptable, the sabotage is still doing the heavy lifting here), set the air alarms to pump out as much plasma as fast as possible (acceptable, the sabotage is still doing the heavy lifting here), then kill people trying to stop it/trying to stop you opening doors or changing the air alarms (bad, now you're going beyond what the plasma flood itself would do) or throw people into burning rooms (bad, now you're directly and personally increasing the bodycount by throwing people into the fires).

I definitely believe roping the AI into these kinds of misdeeds by getting them to bolt open every airlock on the station starting with the outside, or to delam/sabotage the supermatter or plasma flood for you - falls within the scope of acceptable sabotage. Both as a sensible extension of the MRP antag policy I wrote, but also as a logical extension of my changes to silicon policy during the next term I had.

All that said I'd propose the following as a sensible test for using the AI to help you with mass station sabotage: If you could do it yourself, you can make the AI do it for you or make it help you pull it off.

This combines the spirit and letter of the RP mass station sabotage antag policy, with the spirit and letter of new silicon policy, both of which I spearheaded during my two headmin terms.

Now I want to be clear, this is not a ruling on how to definitively resolve this appeal. It's a proposed starting point from one of the key people involved in drafting all the various rules and policies involved here. The current term of headmins naturally reserve the right to change policy, its enforcement and even its interpretation as they please.

[Scriptis]

Alright; so, after talking with Timberpoes and others a bit more, here's how I read this:

- Making the AI kill all the mimes: your target is a mime, this sounds like reasonable collateral, other admins told me the mimes (plural) were being annoying earlier in the shift so this is cool to play off it. I left this in your note as an example of valid play, although it could be worded better.
- Making the AI kill everyone: this falls under Timberpoes's above policy of "if you could do it yourself," you shouldn't just indiscriminately kill everyone yourself (which maximizes body count).

If you'd like to contest this and have a decent IC reason for why the "kill everyone" laws were OK as if you had carried out these kills yourself, we can talk about that and get you fully unbanned.

As for lowering your ban length, I can do like a week at minimum. Usually it's one day per wrongful death, but it seems like your brain honestly just stopped working here, so I'm fine with lowering it.

I propose changing the note overall to:

Code: Select all

As a traitor, uploaded laws to kill all mimes on the station with an objective to kill a particular mime. This was alright. Later in the shift, uploaded a law to kill [i]everyone[/i] on the station, resulting in an unreasonable body count with little IC justification.

[Bugstep]

I think the change to the note is an improvement, and 1 week *is* better than 2 weeks, in the literal sense, but I'm still pretty upset with how this whole thing was handled. From the suddenness of the ahelp (don't think I ever even got my initial ahelp question answered) to the (frankly insultingly) unprofessional "you're getting banned :(", to the abrupt nature of my actual banning, to details not really being understood (even here in this thread), I felt like I was being handled like (from experience) one would handle a blatantly griefing evader. Obviously, this isn't a real court, and emotional damage isn't a consideration, and "bad/poor/odd admin conduct" isnt really a defense, but this whole ordeal feels like a horrid slap in the face for a mistake made by someone who is not a problem player with a lengthy note history, given (effectively) no warning and no dialogue with/from those laying down the ban. At no point was I asked by any of the 4(!) admins who were present at the time of the "you're getting banned" message to explain myself, warn me, or anything. I understand obviously it was a black orbit shift, and I can't know exactly what was going on behind the scenes, but the circumstances are still leaving a horrible taste in my mouth. Again, probably nothing can be done about this because people did die from my law (however, again, I *know* uploads are shown to admins, and I was *never* warned about my folly, something that could have circumvented this entire situation from happening, but, I guess that's just wishful thinking at this point). I just had to say my piece. If there's nothing else to add, I'll just take the week, I guess.

[Scriptis]

A ton of tickets and a ping to handle your ahelp when I signed on because everyone else was buried was why it felt kind of slapdash, sorry!

Secondary to this, it felt kind of open-and-shut to me, and it seemed like you realized you fucked up hard as soon as I brought up you were on MRP, so I figured you didn't have much to contend. Again, you still absolutely have an avenue here to contend the ban in any way, shape, or form you see fit.

I don't feel the clean-ish record warrants anything below a 7-day ban because of the sheer number of people you got killed, as it's still way below the standard of one day per kill. You cool with that and the note edit?

[Bugstep]

A ton of tickets and a ping to handle your ahelp when I signed on because everyone else was buried was why it felt kind of slapdash, sorry!

Secondary to this, it felt kind of open-and-shut to me, and it seemed like you realized you fucked up hard as soon as I brought up you were on MRP, so I figured you didn't have much to contend. Again, you still absolutely have an avenue here to contend the ban in any way, shape, or form you see fit.

I don't feel the clean-ish record warrants anything below a 7-day ban because of the sheer number of people you got killed, as it's still way below the standard of one day per kill. You cool with that and the note edit?

Yeah, I'll live with that.

[Scriptis]

Updated!