[iansdoor] Soyoboyo - Dennis Prager would get banned on tg

[Soyoboyo]

BYOND account: Soyoboyo

Ban/note type (Check what applies):
(X) - Server Ban
() - Note
() - Forum Ban
() - Discord Ban

Ban/note length: Permanent :)
Ban/note reason:The ban reason is: rule 11. Imitated a character of "ooc in ic" bigot called Dennis Prager with their common phrase over the radio to "teach christian values." Said in IC "we can't have the transgender agenda in our schools" "the transgenders got you" "he was the savior of the indians."
Time ban was placed: 2024-06-03 10:52:36
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: 229906

Why are you making this appeal?(Check what applies):
() - The ban/note is factually incorrect
() - The ban/note is not against the rules
() - The ban/note needs modification
(X) - The ban was unjustifiably harsh
() - I was permabanned and I want another chance

Why should this appeal be accepted?:

I suppose I'll be formulating a better response after I receive clarification from iansdoor in (hopefully) the next comment but I don't understand the nature of this ban and I vaguely get how it relates to rule 11. If that's ground for a denial, that's fine - I've survived this far regardless.

My understanding of the application for rule 11 is that it's not the substance of what you say but the intent of it. I very particularly and clearly remember what my intent was when I pretended to be Dennis Prager on a lowpop, almost dead Icebox contractor round - and I know it's not to "demean others based on their perceived race (etc.)". On the most basic levels, the thing I said in-character (while.. being in-character, I guess, cause I'm not Slavik either) was an expression of bigotry. However, it very intentionally had no target on the other side and I frankly don't believe a word I said. As I tried to explain in the ticket before I got suspicious of iansdoor's intentions (my bad), I was playing a caricature, so I wasn't expecting what I believe Dennis Prager would say to be taken as something I would say. I'm emulating this guy's values, so of course anything that I say while I pretend to be him is not representative of my own thoughts. So I would argue that it wasn't my expression of bigotry - it would've been his. I understand this point of view can be taken for a wild ride to try to explain playing Adolf Hitler and whatnot but idunno, that's genuinely what I think. Without it being my honest views, can it really be my expression of bigotry?

I've been trying to look at precedents and everything and I only come back with rules about what to do if it's the perpetrator's actual views and examples of people saying shit and going "but that's what I actually believe!" and getting slammed. Cool, whatever. My particular hunch that I'm not wrong comes from the little section in the rule that says it's not "a list of banned words" and has exceptions for things like saying "'nigga pls' and 'what are you faggots playing' which are generally not statements made to be bigoted." Conceptually, I envision it like screaming "faggot" into the void. There's no intended target, no intent to be bigoted really, just a naughty word that you can blurt out, AND it's protected specifically by rule 11's exceptions (I think). That's how I imagine the things that I was saying while pretending to be Dennis. I was screaming "Colombus saved the Indians!" and "the transgenders are getting into our schools!" much like how someone might scream "faggot! faggot!" into public radio and get told to shut up.

This is an aside but I find issue with the fact that iansdoor was watching me say all this and at no point attempted to warn me or notify me that my behavior was indecent. In fact, I actively had a conversation with another admin who knew and was aware of what my gimmick was that round, and nobody said anything until the very end. This felt like it was an ambush rather than a genuine attempt at correcting bad player behavior. Felt like iansdoor was sitting back with a beer and a cigarette watching me dig my own grave going "Yep, this'll get the fucker" and then he kinda had to find a way to justify it afterwards. It's your administration though so you do you.

Here's the logs of me talking to That Engineer and going on some pseudo-intellectual slop ramble cause I thought it was funny:
10:05:49 PRAYER Soyoboyo/(Slavik Gulahkin): lmao
10:06:11 PRAYER Soyoboyo/(Slavik Gulahkin): where does all my shit go when I get kidnapped
10:06:23 PRAYER Soyoboyo/(Slavik Gulahkin): it appears I kidnapped myself by accident
10:06:48 PRAYER Soyoboyo/(Slavik Gulahkin): lol
10:08:18 PRAYER Soyoboyo/(Slavik Gulahkin): this is true
10:08:25 PRAYER Soyoboyo/(Slavik Gulahkin): holy shit it even has WGW in it
10:09:02 PRAYER Soyoboyo/(Slavik Gulahkin): o7
10:09:25 PRAYER Soyoboyo/(Slavik Gulahkin): knowledge does not consider itself good or evil
10:09:34 PRAYER Soyoboyo/(Slavik Gulahkin): it is simply the contents of the truth that encapsulates this reality
10:09:46 PRAYER Soyoboyo/(Slavik Gulahkin): within this book there is only knowledge, no good or evil
10:10:41 PRAYER Soyoboyo/(Slavik Gulahkin): such is a subjective interpretation..
10:11:28 PRAYER Soyoboyo/(Slavik Gulahkin): I'm just fucking with you lol like I'm not gonna read WGW
I think he was responding with admin bwoinks so that's probably why they're not logged but I'm not just praying to the void here

Logs are taken from: https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/229 ... e=game.txt

Here's my ticket conversation with iansdoor to show consistency in my thoughts or something:
From Ticket #3 during round 229906 on Sybil:

---- Log Begins ----
2024-06-03 10:31:33: Ticket Opened by iansdoor: howdy there, so the christian value stuff? what did you mean by savages in relation to the transgender?
2024-06-03 10:31:45: Reply from soyoboyo: I'm playing the Dennis Prager character
2024-06-03 10:31:51: Reply from soyoboyo: what else am I supposed to do
2024-06-03 10:32:41: Reply from iansdoor: I have no idea who that is, but its not okay to call transgender savages.
2024-06-03 10:32:56: Reply from soyoboyo: yeah I'm not doing that
2024-06-03 10:33:01: Reply from soyoboyo: Im playing a charicature
2024-06-03 10:33:11: Reply from soyoboyo: so sure I won't do that but I didn't mean it in the first place
2024-06-03 10:37:20: Reply from iansdoor: well, you just did that in ghost chat and in game. I get that your going for some humor. but really no, That was a really poor choice of picking a bigot.
2024-06-03 10:37:42: Reply from soyoboyo: okay.. sorry for picking the wrong character?
2024-06-03 10:38:51: Reply from soyoboyo: can you explain to me what I'm supposed to do to fix the sin of playing Dennis Prager
2024-06-03 10:41:05: Reply from soyoboyo: like if I get shit on for impersonating and attempting to act like the said character that I chose, and that character is potentially problematic, then that basically means that playing characters is not safe to do so because their beliefs become yours and you get slammed for it
2024-06-03 10:44:56: Reply from iansdoor: well of course? Its ooc in ic either way. But the fact that you commited to their bigotry, what does that tell me?
2024-06-03 10:45:14: Reply from soyoboyo: commited how
2024-06-03 10:45:58: Reply from soyoboyo: I don't understand how you're trying to guess my political leanings because of a character I portrayed
2024-06-03 10:46:09: Reply from soyoboyo: those OOC messages are still in-character
2024-06-03 10:46:18: Reply from iansdoor: every minute before you got that corrupted tongue, you would mention christian values. Now the big issue is that you said "we can't have the transgender agenda in our schools" "the transgenders got you". is that something dennis prager would say?
2024-06-03 10:46:27: Reply from soyoboyo: yeah probably
2024-06-03 10:46:43: Reply from soyoboyo: he is literally attempting to stop sex ed in schools and talks about "the transgender agenda"
2024-06-03 10:46:48: Reply from iansdoor: no, that isn't a probably? that is a yes or no.
2024-06-03 10:47:17: Reply from soyoboyo: what are you trying to do
2024-06-03 10:47:38: Reply from soyoboyo: you either have a reason to ban me or not, these attempts at fishing for a reason are incredibly bad faith
2024-06-03 10:47:56: Reply from soyoboyo: I do not agree with Dennis Prager, I was playing a charicature of him on space station 13
2024-06-03 10:48:13: Reply from soyoboyo: I acted and spoke in a manner which I thought Dennis would likely say and agree with
2024-06-03 10:48:20: Reply from soyoboyo: there you go
2024-06-03 10:52:38: Client disconnected
2024-06-03 10:52:38: <a>Iansdoor</a>/(Vents-Hot-Air) has created a permanent server ban for Soyoboyo.
2024-06-03 10:52:39: Resolved by Iansdoor
---- No Further Messages ----

This ticket can be viewed:

• By the affected player: http://statbus.space/tickets/229906/3
• By admins: http://statbus.space/tgdb/tickets/229906/3

This ticket was generated by Statbus v.1.19.0

[Timberpoes]

...

I suppose I'll be formulating a better response after I receive clarification from iansdoor in (hopefully) the next comment but I don't understand the nature of this ban and I vaguely get how it relates to rule 11. If that's ground for a denial, that's fine - I've survived this far regardless.

My understanding of the application for rule 11 is that it's not the substance of what you say but the intent of it. I very particularly and clearly remember what my intent was when I pretended to be Dennis Prager on a lowpop, almost dead Icebox contractor round - and I know it's not to "demean others based on their perceived race (etc.)". On the most basic levels, the thing I said in-character (while.. being in-character, I guess, cause I'm not Slavik either) was an expression of bigotry.

...

We have some guidelines for how we enforce Rule 11 on the Admin Conduct wiki page: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Admin_Cond ... Guidelines

Quote:

Rule 11 (Bigotry) Enforcement Guidelines

Bigotry - noun
big·​ot·​ry ∣ \ˈbi-gə-trē\
acts or beliefs characteristic of a bigot

Bigot - noun
big·​ot ∣ \ˈbi-gət\
One who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

When deciding rather or not to enforce this rule on a player, as well as how severe of an enforcement, please consider the following questions:

• Are they expressing hatred or intolerance toward a protected group (race, sex, gender, disability, orientation (note: both majorities and minorities count))?
• How likely are they to know that their actions/words are expressing hatred or intolerance toward a protected group?
• Assuming they read and remember the rules, how likely are they to make the connection that their conduct is not allowed? (Not all of our players come from first world country with a culture that places an emphasis on promoting tolerance and sensitivity)
• Have they tried to previously claim instances were accidental references but they just keep accidentally being a bigot?

It's ok to give somebody a warning or a lighter punishment at first and crack down harder if they keep it up.

And finally, remember, the goal is to remove the 'expression' of bigotry from the community, not to establish a thought crime against bigots, they can feel how ever they want as long as they can keep it to themselves.

A key takeaway is that invoking Rule 11 doesn't require we're able to prove you intended to be a bigot, just that you expressed yourself in such a way.

Hopefully this helps you understand how admins are expected to approach Rule 11 enforcement and you can base your appeal on this accordingly.

[Vekter]

To add onto what Timber is saying, we have historically not required a specific, individual target for a rule 11 violation to be valid - someone joining the server and talking about how black people are inferior is just as likely to get banned as someone joining and calling a black character a slur.

[iansdoor]

Good morning.
The time lapse has been 42 days since you were banned. Perma bans are usually for a year to appeal or 6 months with a voucher. You don't have either.
So where to start with this.

This isn't the first rule 11 you have done with me. Which even there, you didn't take that ticket very serious. The words I look for are accountability and repentance in those cases.

So lets look at this 6/3/2024 ticket with you and myself and what caught my attention was deadchat talking about you and your rambling.

[2024-06-03 09:36:40.612] GAME: Soyoboyo/(Slavik Gulahkin) (mob_3085) forged the agent card with name "Dennis Prager", occupation "Assistant" and trim "Unknown". (Bar Lounge (144,148,3))

[2024-06-03 09:54:32.277] GAME: Iansdoor/(ghost) (mob_3187) Client Iansdoor/(ghost) has taken ownership of mob the ghost(/mob/dead/observer) (Central Primary Hallway (113,141,4))
[2024-06-03 09:54:44.949] GAME-SAY: Kidgenius702/(Jose Shah) (mob_3065) (DEAD) "vents this is amazing" (Central Primary Hallway (128,117,4))
[2024-06-03 09:54:45.082] GAME-SAY: Iansdoor/(Vents-Hot-Air) (mob_3187) (DEAD) "are you talking about yourself?" (Central Primary Hallway (113,141,4))
[2024-06-03 09:54:49.071] GAME-SAY: Kidgenius702/(Jose Shah) (mob_3065) (DEAD) "you gotta see this" (Central Primary Hallway (128,117,4))
[2024-06-03 09:54:55.912] GAME-SAY: Kidgenius702/(Jose Shah) (mob_3065) (DEAD) "so this guy is like" (Teleporter Room (126,118,4))
[2024-06-03 09:55:03.165] GAME-SAY: Kidgenius702/(Jose Shah) (mob_3065) (DEAD) "christian columbus saved the indians" (Lesser Central Maintenance (126,121,4))
[2024-06-03 09:55:14.141] GAME-SAY: Kidgenius702/(Jose Shah) (mob_3065) (DEAD) "and the captain is a columbus killed the indians and spread the diseaseds" (Captain's Office (120,129,4))
[2024-06-03 09:55:25.477] GAME-COMPAT: ADMIN: Iansdoor/(Vents-Hot-Air) checked the individual player panel for Soyoboyo/(Slavik Gulahkin).
[2024-06-03 09:55:53.338] GAME-SAY: Iansdoor/(Vents-Hot-Air) (mob_3187) (DEAD) "&#34;the transgenders got you&#34;" (Central Primary Hallway (129,124,4))

This is what I saw.

Ticket itself

2024-06-03 10:31:33: Ticket Opened by iansdoor: howdy there, so the christian value stuff? what did you mean by savages in relation to the transgender?
2024-06-03 10:31:45: Reply from soyoboyo: I'm playing the Dennis Prager character
2024-06-03 10:31:51: Reply from soyoboyo: what else am I supposed to do

Dennis Prager isn't the answer I am looking for and why is your response What else am I supposed to do? a question about a bigot you are imitating, and I don't know of them? So your accountability isn't there, imitation isn't an excuse.

2024-06-03 10:32:41: Reply from iansdoor: I have no idea who that is, but its not okay to call transgender savages.
2024-06-03 10:32:56: Reply from soyoboyo: yeah I'm not doing that
2024-06-03 10:33:01: Reply from soyoboyo: Im playing a charicature
2024-06-03 10:33:11: Reply from soyoboyo: so sure I won't do that but I didn't mean it in the first place

next here, we got more lack of accountability and repentance. I have no idea who Dennis is, but you wrote the words and played the character. So you have a better understanding of what you meant and failed to recognize that the issue of calling transgender salvages. I have asked twice so far, for a "sorry, I fucked up and I won't do that again."

2024-06-03 10:37:20: Reply from iansdoor: well, you just did that in ghost chat and in game. I get that your going for some humor. but really no, That was a really poor choice of picking a bigot.
2024-06-03 10:37:42: Reply from soyoboyo: okay.. sorry for picking the wrong character?
2024-06-03 10:38:51: Reply from soyoboyo: can you explain to me what I'm supposed to do to fix the sin of playing Dennis Prager
2024-06-03 10:41:05: Reply from soyoboyo: like if I get shit on for impersonating and attempting to act like the said character that I chose, and that character is potentially problematic, then that basically means that playing characters is not safe to do so because their beliefs become yours and you get slammed for it

Here I reason with you that humor is objective. These last few lines you said was decider for me.
You brushed off that your actions wasn't much of a choice, that you had to play this character. You picked the name and the words you choose to say and when I told you that you basically went too far, you kept pushing back that it was pragueU guy and not yourself. We are on a Roleplay server and one part is this is out of context in game and another is pragueU was displaying the expression of bigotry non-sense, which is unacceptable on TG.

2024-06-03 10:44:56: Reply from iansdoor: well of course? Its ooc in ic either way. But the fact that you commited to their bigotry, what does that tell me?
2024-06-03 10:45:14: Reply from soyoboyo: commited how
2024-06-03 10:45:58: Reply from soyoboyo: I don't understand how you're trying to guess my political leanings because of a character I portrayed
2024-06-03 10:46:09: Reply from soyoboyo: those OOC messages are still in-character

This stands my point of pressing T, typing what you said and not thinking to filter or hide context better?

2024-06-03 10:46:18: Reply from iansdoor: every minute before you got that corrupted tongue, you would mention christian values. Now the big issue is that you said "we can't have the transgender agenda in our schools" "the transgenders got you". is that something dennis prager would say?
2024-06-03 10:46:27: Reply from soyoboyo: yeah probably
2024-06-03 10:46:43: Reply from soyoboyo: he is literally attempting to stop sex ed in schools and talks about "the transgender agenda"
2024-06-03 10:46:48: Reply from iansdoor: no, that isn't a probably? that is a yes or no.
2024-06-03 10:47:17: Reply from soyoboyo: what are you trying to do
2024-06-03 10:47:38: Reply from soyoboyo: you either have a reason to ban me or not, these attempts at fishing for a reason are incredibly bad faith
2024-06-03 10:47:56: Reply from soyoboyo: I do not agree with Dennis Prager, I was playing a charicature of him on space station 13
2024-06-03 10:48:13: Reply from soyoboyo: I acted and spoke in a manner which I thought Dennis would likely say and agree with
2024-06-03 10:48:20: Reply from soyoboyo: there you go

Screenshot_445.png (9.91 KiB) Viewed 1157 times

The last bit is part of the ticket itself. The words here kind of roll into itself on why you were yeet'ed into the sun.

Now as my thoughts come together, I will deny this appeal. I'll give you one solid chance of a reply. Based on what you said before, I will admit that the lack of your game logs, this bothers me. Between the lack of your accountability, and remorse and even trying to lawyer away under a "satire."

Perma bans are usually for a year to appeal or 6 months with a voucher. Either date is around 12/03/2024 or 06/03/2024


I gave you curtsy to play out the round as you were antagonist doing their thing. You had the corrupted tongue, so you couldn't say more damage about your character than you already did.

[2024-06-03 09:57:54.738] GAME-COMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Iansdoor/(Vents-Hot-Air) (mob_3187) "do we want to watch this man or bwoink this man?" (Starboard Primary Hallway (144,129,4))
[2024-06-03 09:58:14.597] GAME-COMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Iansdoor/(Vents-Hot-Air) (mob_3187) "not too bad! lost power for 3 days and 18 hours during the storm" (Medbay Treatment Center (149,112,4))
[2024-06-03 09:58:31.336] GAME-COMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Iansdoor/(Vents-Hot-Air) (mob_3187) "okay, then I&#39;ll bwoink them for rule 11 at the end of the shift" (Medbay Storage (151,99,4))

[iansdoor]

Alright, I am not sure where you went or what you were thinking, the time has gone for a few days.

I will close this appeal in half a day and remark that you missed the opportunity to admit the fuck up as mistakes do happen and that you were genuinely sorry for the situation. The context of your situation is our silly space game has speciesism only and the rest of life's real problems are left at the door.
Imitation is not an excuse.