[Thunder12345] Ekaterina von Russland - noted for correctly applying Space Law

[ekaterina]

BYOND account: Ekaterina von Russland

Ban/note type (Check what applies):
() - Server Ban
(X) - Note
() - Forum Ban
() - Discord Ban

Ban/note length: Note
Ban/note reason: Warned - As a sec officer, was cured of an obsession discovered by a doctor after they ended up in medbay in crit. Subsequently gulagged the doctor because they were upset at picking up a colour blindness trauma in the process. Reminded that they can't retaliate against people for doing their jobs.
Time ban was placed: 2024-07-01 17:15:25
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 231452

Why are you making this appeal?(Check what applies):
(X) - The ban/note is factually incorrect
(X) - The ban/note is not against the rules
() - The ban/note needs modification
() - The ban was unjustifiably harsh
() - I was permabanned and I want another chance

Why should this appeal be accepted?:
Noting someone for correctly applying Space Law is absurd in itself.

I was the target of griefing, resolved it IC, and Thunder chose to note me instead of the griefer. As absurd as it sounds. Pretty much all explained in the ahelps:

Code: Select all

-- Administrator private message --
Admin PM from-Thunder12345: Hey, can you tell me what happened with June Creighton, please?
Click on the administrator's name to reply.
PM to-Admins: I absolutely can. I was hunting the wizard when I was put into crit and I got brought to medbay. This bozo asked for cuffs to pin me down to perform an unnecessary lobotomy on me while ignoring my hairline fracture that needed fixing. As a result, I got a permanent colourblind trauma that makes this game borderline unplayable. Rule 1 violation on her.
PM to-Admins: So I arrested and gulagged her for the crime of kidnapping, a felony.
-- Administrator private message --
Admin PM from-Thunder12345: You were obsessed, it was both reasonable and correct of them to fix that, and picking up a brain trauma in the process is an unfortunate side effect of being cured.

Getting to continue the round with only a brain trauma to show for it is on the very lucky end of consequences for being caught as an antag, and you shouldn't retaliate against someone for curing you.
Click on the administrator's name to reply.
Error: Admin-PM-Message: No message input.
PM to-Admins: bruh I just hit esc and it deleted what I was writing to you
PM to-Admins: Valid hunting is not the medical doctor's job, it is neither correct nor reasonable of her to cuff me and put valid hunting above curing a hairline fracture and brute crit.
PM to-Admins: "getting" to have my round ruined (legitimately considered suiciding) over a random roll I had no choice in and had done nothing about (crit while hunting wiz before having any opportunity to interact with the roll) is a supremely weird way to put it.
-- Administrator private message --
Admin PM from-Thunder12345: They are a doctor, they found you with a brain trauma that made you a danger to others, and they fixed it. Turn if off in your preferences if you don't want to deal with the consequences of the role instead of taking it out on the innocent party doing their job.
Click on the administrator's name to reply.
Error: Admin-PM-Message: No message input.
PM to-Admins: Can't believe you're taking her side. What are you looking for here - is this just going to be an ahelp chat or is this going to end up on the forums?
Error: Admin-PM-Message: No message input.
-- Administrator private message --
Admin PM from-Thunder12345: What I'm looking for is for you to not throw someone in the gulag again for doing their job, that's all
Click on the administrator's name to reply.
PM to-Admins: She didn't do her job - she specifically neglected her job, getting me out of crit - until the guy who rescued me yelled at her to fix me - and neglected her hairline fracture - to validhunt instead. She may be allowed to hunt valids but she sure as hell shouldn't be immune to the IC consequences of it. Simply existing and having a trauma is not a crime subject to arrest, making what she did a crime of kidnapping.
Your ticket has been resolved by an admin. The Adminhelp verb will be returned to you shortly.

Following Thunder's decision to close the ticket and wordlessly note me instead of replying to me (which is in itself questionable admin conduct), I reiterate:
First, on "for doing her job": she specifically neglected her job to hunt a valid. Dereliction is already punishable IC. Second, she may be allowed to hunt valids but she sure as hell shouldn't be immune to the IC consequences of it. Simply existing and having a trauma is not a crime subject to arrest, making what she did felony kidnapping, subject to a 500-800 point sentence, which I generously set as the minimum.

[The Space Law] page is an IC guideline that can be used to grant you protection from undue escalation/admin punishment if followed in good faith

[Vekter]

Validhunting has generally been defined as "going out of your way to hunt antagonists outside of the scope of your normal job or gameplay". Please keep in mind that part of your appeal is likely to hinge on proving that June's actions fulfill this definition.

Additionally, as a reminder, the following pertains to note appeals:

For those reasons, notes can be appealed if they match one of the following two cases:

1. The note is factually or materially incorrect.
   There must be a difference between how an admin who knew all the facts would view you vs how an admin who only had the note to go on would view you. If you were being a shit but the note didn't correctly detail exactly how you were being a shit, an appeal nitpicking this detail is unlikely to be granted.
   Statements that are clearly pure opinion on the admins part can not be incorrect (because that is what the admin actually believes), but may be appealed under case 2 below.
   Appealed bans are only factually incorrect if the conditions around ban itself was incorrect. Getting unbanned because you apologized or similar reasons is not grounds to have the auto-generated note about the ban removed. Likewise: getting unbanned because you broke the rules but the admin or a headmin later determined that a ban was "too much" is not grounds to remove the ban's note.
   Notes appealed under this rule may be amended rather than removed.
   Notes appealed under this rule will generally be more successful if appealing players offers suggested rewording that they feel properly accounts for nuances without minimizing what the note is trying to highlight. Understand that we have to balance keeping notes short and succinct with accurately reflecting the situation.
2. The note's contents or existence is unjustifiably harsh to the player's standing in the eyes of admins reading the notes.
   Notes that contain admin opinions that unfairly paint the player in a bad light are one example.
   Emphasis on the phrase "unfairly". If you're repeatedly a shitter and an admin calls you a shitter in a note just take the hint and improve on not being a shitter

[NoxVS]

Code: Select all

[b]Why are you making this appeal?(Check what applies):[/b]
[b]() -  The ban/note is factually incorrect[/b]
[b]() - The ban/note is not against the rules[/b]
[b]() -  The ban/note needs modification[/b]
[b]() -  The ban was unjustifiably harsh[/b]
[b]() -  I was permabanned and I want another chance[/b]

[b]Why should this appeal be accepted?:[/b]

Your appeal is missing these sections

[Thunder11]

Simply existing and having a trauma is not a crime subject to arrest, making what she did felony kidnapping, subject to a 500-800 point sentence, which I generously set as the minimum.

Being an antagonist because of that trauma is, however, a medical condition subject to medbay having the right to cure you of it before you hurt anyone.

There is no argument of any substance in this appeal to demonstrate that the note is either factually incorrect or unjustifiably harsh, and I will not be making any changes.

[ekaterina]

Additionally, as a reminder, the following pertains to note appeals

Your appeal is missing these sections

Thanks. Fixed.

There is no argument of any substance in this appeal to demonstrate that the note is either factually incorrect or unjustifiably harsh

A note for something that does not break any rule is inherently unjustifiable and unjustifiably harsh.
Not only does my action not break any rule, it is prescribed by Space Law. I acted correctly.

The note is, further, materially incorrect (incomplete) in regards to my motivation, stating it is "because I was upset at picking up a colour blindness trauma".
I gulagged her because she committed a felony crime against me, of which inflicting said trauma is only part. She held me in cuffs to perform a lobotomy against my will, giving me the permanent trauma that ruined my ability to enjoy the game for the duration of the round.
Any punishment, including a note, for correctly applying Space Law, is undeserved and meritless.
Furthermore, it is incorrect in describing what she did as "her job".

I will not be making any changes.

Is this the part where I say I want headmin review?

[dendydoom]

hello,

after much deliberation and investigation, we have decided to uphold this note.

some preliminary stuff i would like to address is the matter of the "restricted" status of obsessed antags.

there is no mention of obsessed specifically being restricted in any way in how they are treated on any specific protected page (eg the rules page or headmin rulings page) but there is this from the obsessed wiki page:

"Please do note that you are not protected by Rule 4 as an Obsessed crewmember, as you are not a traditional antagonist. You are not allowed to kill crewmembers, nor commit grand sabotage unprovoked. Of note is that you should NOT immediately go and stab your obsession to death, as that is in direct contradiction with your objectives. You are allowed to do anything in pursuit of your objectives and for the purposes of evading capture, even if it results in collateral. For example, when the time comes to murder your target, it makes sense for you to minimize the amount of witnesses. Once you've finished all of your objectives, you revert back to being a non-antagonist, and therefore, normal escalation policy applies."

after discussing this with other admins, specifically lrp-active admins, we came to the conclusion that this was generally understood within enforcement and that the protection is basically one-way: the obsessed cannot kill everyone they see as per rule 4 antag freedom, but the crew can deal with the obsessed when they're outed in a rule 4 way.

with that out of the way, we can move onto the actual situation presented here.

first and foremost, it was bradley, the captain, that cuffed you, not the doctor:

[2024-07-01 16:42:31.467] ATTACK: BingBong34/(Bradley Howard) (mob_3284) attempted to handcuff Ekaterina von Russland/(Marina Rudinova) (NEWHP: -18.7) (Grand Surgery Theatre (73,102,2))
[2024-07-01 16:42:34.498] ATTACK: BingBong34/(Bradley Howard) (mob_3284) successfully handcuffed Ekaterina von Russland/(Marina Rudinova) (NEWHP: -18.7) (Grand Surgery Theatre (73,102,2))

the extent of june's involvement here was scanning you with an analyzer and making the captain aware that you were obsessed, which makes you a violent threat.

june advises the captain on this matter once she discovered your deep-rooted trauma that makes you an obsessed antagonist:

[2024-07-01 16:42:07.007] GAME-SAY: Bmon/(June Creighton) (mob_3279) "it's a deep rooted trauma now." (Medbay Treatment Center (77,102,2))
[2024-07-01 16:42:11.100] GAME-SAY: Bmon/(June Creighton) (mob_3279) "it needs lobotomy" (Medbay Treatment Center (77,102,2))

this is explained to you, and the captain himself orders june to fix the trauma:

[2024-07-01 16:42:26.409] GAME-SAY: BingBong34/(Bradley Howard) (mob_3284) "why are you obsessed" (Grand Surgery Theatre (73,102,2))
[2024-07-01 16:42:27.549] GAME-EMOTE: BingBong34/(Bradley Howard) (mob_3284) points at Marina Rudinova (Grand Surgery Theatre (73,102,2))
[2024-07-01 16:42:27.711] GAME-EMOTE: BingBong34/(Bradley Howard) (mob_3284) points at Marina Rudinova (Grand Surgery Theatre (73,102,2))
[2024-07-01 16:42:27.910] GAME-EMOTE: BingBong34/(Bradley Howard) (mob_3284) points at Marina Rudinova (Grand Surgery Theatre (73,102,2))
[2024-07-01 16:42:30.262] GAME-WHISPER: Ekaterina von Russland/(Marina Rudinova) (mob_3464) "I'm what?" (Grand Surgery Theatre (72,103,2))
[2024-07-01 16:42:37.843] GAME-SAY: Bmon/(June Creighton) (mob_3279) "they're a schizo" (Grand Surgery Theatre (73,103,2))
[2024-07-01 16:42:38.323] GAME-SAY: BingBong34/(Bradley Howard) (mob_3284) "fix that please" (Grand Surgery Theatre (74,102,2))
[2024-07-01 16:42:40.948] GAME-WHISPER: Ekaterina von Russland/(Marina Rudinova) (mob_3464) "what teh fuck?" (Grand Surgery Theatre (72,103,2))
[2024-07-01 16:42:43.836] GAME-SAY: BingBong34/(Bradley Howard) (mob_3284) "yeah they obsessed with someone" (Grand Surgery Theatre (74,102,2))
[2024-07-01 16:42:45.571] GAME-WHISPER: Ekaterina von Russland/(Marina Rudinova) (mob_3464) "I got crushed by a fucking vending machine" (Grand Surgery Theatre (72,103,2))

therefore june was acting under the captain's direct orders at this point to cure you.

the space law definition of kidnapping is as follows:

Holding anyone somewhere against their will ***without legitimate reason*** counts for this. Unlawful arrests are considered kidnapping.

(emphasis mine)
first: while being restrained with handcuffs is, generally, against someone's will, you didn't demand to be released. you demanded a health analyzer to check yourself.
second: the captain detaining you for the purposes of removing a brain trauma which makes you a violent threat to the station seems like a pretty legitimate reason to me. therefore, not only is your use of space law in this instance not accurate to its definition, but you arrested the wrong person for what you saw as kidnapping. my own personal conjecture on this matter is that getting the lawyer involved and suing for malpractice would've been some genuinely cool rp.

i'm not sure whether you bringing up the vending machine as the cause was truthful or an IC attempt to explain away the trauma, but just in case it's the former, it was not the vending machine that gave you this trauma. you were selected by the midround roll to become that antagonist:

[2024-07-01 16:37:09.650] GAME: Ekaterina von Russland/(Marina Rudinova) has gained antag datum Obsessed(/datum/antagonist/obsessed).
[2024-07-01 16:37:09.651] GAME: [Obsessed] has developed an obsession with Mimepride/(Guillaume Le Cosmonaute).
[2024-07-01 16:37:09.652] GAME: Ekaterina von Russland/(Marina Rudinova) (mob_3464) has gained the following brain trauma: /datum/brain_trauma/special/obsessed
[2024-07-01 16:37:09.652] GAME: Ekaterina von Russland/(Marina Rudinova) was made Obsessed by the midround ruleset.

ironically, and i'm only adding this here in the hopes that it'll lighten up this situation and maybe make you laugh, is that not long after this, someone else gained the obsession antag and became obsessed with you:

[2024-07-01 17:42:52.784] GAME: Random Event triggering: Obsession Awakening (/datum/round_event/obsessed).
[2024-07-01 17:42:52.801] GAME: PoopyJoe200/(Boris Nezchoviz) has gained antag datum Obsessed(/datum/antagonist/obsessed).
[2024-07-01 17:42:52.802] GAME: [Obsessed] has developed an obsession with Ekaterina von Russland/(Marina Rudinova).
[2024-07-01 17:51:47.771] GAME-SAY: PoopyJoe200/(Boris Nezchoviz) (mob_3919) "She made me wanna goon harder, I like her skibussy, I think I'm obsessed with her" (Emergency Shuttle (107,52,2))

finally, when accusing june of not doing their job appropriately by healing the rest of your wounds, they actually did heal the other brain traumas you suffered (which only makes sense since they already had your head opened, why close it to start a fracture surgery only to have to open your head again right after?), but as soon as you were uncuffed, you got up, told them they were under arrest, and attacked them:

[2024-07-01 16:44:05.887] GAME-SAY: Ekaterina von Russland/(Marina Rudinova) (mob_3464) "SHE MADE ME COLORBLIND" (Grand Surgery Theatre (72,103,2))
[2024-07-01 16:44:07.671] GAME-SAY: Ekaterina von Russland/(Marina Rudinova) (mob_3464) "ARREST HER" (Grand Surgery Theatre (73,103,2))
[2024-07-01 16:44:20.143] GAME-SAY: BingBong34/(Bradley Howard) (mob_3284) "oh shush your fine" (Grand Surgery Theatre (74,103,2))
[2024-07-01 16:44:21.270] GAME-EMOTE: BingBong34/(Bradley Howard) (mob_3284) points at Marina Rudinova (Grand Surgery Theatre (74,103,2))
[2024-07-01 16:44:24.158] GAME-SAY: Ekaterina von Russland/(Marina Rudinova) (mob_3464) "I'M COLOUR BLIKND THANKS TO YOU" (Grand Surgery Theatre (72,104,2))
[2024-07-01 16:44:24.945] GAME-SAY: Ekaterina von Russland/(Marina Rudinova) (mob_3464) "T" (Grand Surgery Theatre (72,104,2))
[2024-07-01 16:44:25.063] GAME-SAY: Bmon/(June Creighton) (mob_3279) "good news, they're fixed!" (Grand Surgery Theatre (73,103,2))
[2024-07-01 16:44:28.249] GAME-SAY: Ekaterina von Russland/(Marina Rudinova) (mob_3464) "FIOXEDF M YASS" (Grand Surgery Theatre (72,104,2))
[2024-07-01 16:44:29.343] ATTACK: Ekaterina von Russland/(Marina Rudinova) (mob_3464) stun attacked Bmon/(June Creighton) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 100) (Grand Surgery Theatre (72,104,2))
[2024-07-01 16:44:29.714] GAME-SAY: Bmon/(June Creighton) (mob_3279) "all it cost them was their colour" (Grand Surgery Theatre (73,103,2))
[2024-07-01 16:44:33.640] GAME-SAY: Bmon/(June Creighton) (mob_3279) "ow" (Grand Surgery Theatre (73,101,2))

there's much more here that i could go into (and did in headminbus) but this is reaching novel lengths and i think the major points have been addressed.

this was not grief, this was a doctor discovering a trauma which makes you an antagonist, alerting the captain, who then restrained you (because you had the potential to be a violent patient (you would be allowed to retaliate because having your antagonist status removed is obviously a barrier to your objectives)) and under orders, the doctor removed that trauma. before being able to treat you any further, you arrested them for doing their job for a crime that not only didn't fit the legal definition, but wasn't even done by them. we do not find this note to be unjustifiably harsh nor factually inaccurate.

thank you for your time.