MRP - Update the Security Contraband Ruling

[DaydreamIQ]

Alright so currently the ruling for security handling contraband is this

"Sec should make best efforts to store contraband quickly, and only use it when appropriate situations arise. Wielding traitor gear during arrests threatens a sec officer's meta protections."

Now this ruling is incredibly generous, since it never actually specifies what could be considered an appropriate situation. In an earlier round I witnessed a secoff chasing around a single heretic who wasn't even halfway down his path under the pretense that they were dealing with "multiple high threat antags" (Said antags were either already dead or about to be via desword). Which seems kind of flimsy if any security officer can just whip out a contraband item of their choice soley because they're having a hard time against a particular antag who isn't a stationwide threat.

My proposal here would be to reword it so that it clearly says something along the lines of "Security may only use contraband against a threat that actively threatens the entire station I.e. Nukies, Blob, Ascended heretics, final objective traitors, Wizards" so there's no grey area for interpretation. Feel free to provide your own thoughts on the matter if you think this is a good/terrible idea cause I see a lot of people complain about this happening frequently on MRP

[PapaMichael]

Agree strongly with the sentiment that sec on MRP uses contraband too much, but I think your wording might be stricter than I'd like.

Context should matter - if I'm a secoff with a dead laser gun and a dead baton, and some traitor starts shooting me with a Makarov, I shouldn't be forced to ignore the fact that I have a dsword that I took out of storage to fight a blob (or whatever your proposed rule allows) and just roll over and die; that's ANTI RP, as far as I'm concerned.

[dendydoom]

without agreeing or disagreeing at this point, but rather just trying to shed some light on admin procedure:

generally we establish a pattern of behaviour with these types of things. using contraband inappropriately as a security role is sort of synonymous with powergaming. we expect to see IC reasoning used to allow for these dramatic "escalation of force" scenarios where security get to break out the forbidden BFG, and with respect to how often people rely on imperfect knowledge of a situation in this game, we often find ourselves giving players the benefit of the doubt when it's a one-off incident on their account. sometimes threats can seem much bigger and scarier when you feel threatened, and it's hard to maintain that sort of awareness that we find so easy to maintain as admins.

however, when we find players who often reach for contraband as sec/command on mrp as a relied upon strategy at the earliest convenience, they eventually (perhaps inevitably) get a talking to.

if this specific incident wasn't ahelped or "handled", then feel free to PM me the round ID and i can look into it to understand the specific situation better.

[Vekter]

This is kind of hard to nail down because there's always going to be instances where some contraband is okay to use in some situations and others are not. If you get a Syndicate encryption key, you're kind of good to use that any time because you know there's traitors on the station and they might be using it to communicate. It's relatively low impact on the round and doesn't benefit you outside of sneaking in on their comms.

On the other hand, you probably shouldn't be running around with a Double E-Sword or giving yourself a Holoparasite unless the shit has severely hit the fan.

It's hard to be really binary about it because I don't think "Security shouldn't be able to use a chest rig unless there's nukies" is a reasonable statement but there's obviously some gear that really shouldn't be dragged out unless the station is in mortal peril.

In general, it's always going to depend on the impact of the item in question. Antagonists shouldn't be bringing items to the station that they aren't prepared to have used against other antagonists.

[britgrenadier1]

I dont think we need a change on this. Like Vektor said, I think that some things like chest rigs or emagging your sechailer is fine and flavorful. Running around with a dsword isnt. One thing I'd like to see for this proposal is that "In the moment" fights should have no rules on contraband. If I disarm a traitor and then pick up his gun I should be allowed to put him down with it.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I personally think the "vibes line" on this one is more or less that sec shouldn't be deliberately carrying or using contraband gear that makes them look like a baddie to a casual observer outside of "Stationwide disaster nothing else matters" or "happened to have it/grabbed it while being attacked" situations. But its one of those annoying to judge things for sure.

[Higgin]

[...]

In general, it's always going to depend on the impact of the item in question. Antagonists shouldn't be bringing items to the station that they aren't prepared to have used against other antagonists.

basically my feelings on it. turnabout is fair play.

can it get other antags fucked over if you feed security an open uplink or any sort of gear? yes.

are security still expected to use their nonlethal tools, not be dicks, and sentence proportionately on MRP? yes.

does any choice to use contra need to be IC as much as anything else, and will admins have different lenses for what is sufficient? yes.

is there a clear way to draw that sufficiency in the rules, without knowing the present-sense impressions of the seccie and facts of the round? not imo.

[Vekter]

One thing I'd like to see for this proposal is that "In the moment" fights should have no rules on contraband. If I disarm a traitor and then pick up his gun I should be allowed to put him down with it.

I'm not sure this needs to be enshrined in rules tbh; if any of us admins bonk someone for picking up a lethal weapon someone was using on them and retaliating with it, I think we've failed.

I personally think the "vibes line" on this one is more or less that sec shouldn't be deliberately carrying or using contraband gear that makes them look like a baddie to a casual observer outside of "Stationwide disaster nothing else matters" or "happened to have it/grabbed it while being attacked" situations. But its one of those annoying to judge things for sure.

Yeah, kind of. From a flavor perspective, security shouldn't be using contraband because... Well, it's contraband. It's something crew members shouldn't have that's not allowed on the station. Regulations say that security shouldn't be using it, but regulations can go fuck themselves in an emergency. From a gameplay one, we don't want security rolling over every threat just because one idiot with a double e-sword didn't buy no-slips and got owned 10 minutes in.

can it get other antags fucked over if you feed security an open uplink or any sort of gear? yes.

All this being said, I'm not sure security should ever be using an open uplink to buy shit on MRP. That feels like it's crossing a line to me.

[Higgin]

[...]

Yeah, kind of. From a flavor perspective, security shouldn't be using contraband because... Well, it's contraband. It's something crew members shouldn't have that's not allowed on the station. Regulations say that security shouldn't be using it, but regulations can go fuck themselves in an emergency. From a gameplay one, we don't want security rolling over every threat just because one idiot with a double e-sword didn't buy no-slips and got owned 10 minutes in.

can it get other antags fucked over if you feed security an open uplink or any sort of gear? yes.

All this being said, I'm not sure security should ever be using an open uplink to buy shit on MRP. That feels like it's crossing a line to me.

for me the read is about use and context, I think - it loops back to the other rules.

if security buys riot dart pistols on discount and uses them as substitute disablers when they'd otherwise use disablers, not killing people FNR, headset keys, or gives the det a camera bug/chameleon projector? cool.

if security picks up a desword or .357 and start disemboweling their suspects rather than arresting them where they'd otherwise arrest, not only have they violated their metaprotections and are subject to IC intervention by people who see this, but they're also violating the "use nonlethal tools" part of sec policy and proportionality on MRP under RPR6.

buying from the uplink to me seems like a legit IC decision as much as it might not be and also dispositive of powergaming if it falls into a pattern of bad vibes. the stuff isn't necessarily just contraband because the Syndicate use it but also, because they lack access to or knowledge of it (illegal tech,) NT not having access to it to begin with at the start of a round.

once the round has begun, taking what is put in front of you and using it to do your job more effectively is as valid IC as many HoS/sec players choosing instead to shut the stuff away in contraband - as much motivated by very plausible IC reasons ("this will help me do my job better/get out of here alive" vs. "this is Syndicate tech that we should only research as much as we can, if at all, before getting it back to the eggheads at Central to figure out") - as good OOC reasons: a sense of fairness both to security coming into contact with the gear and using it in good faith as much as one towards the antags that might be at a disadvantage if the gear is to get used against them.

i think the game is made less interesting by putting a strict prohibition in here - the code solution has been to "snowflake" gear we don't want security/the crew to use for balance reasons with firing pins and inherent abilities (holoparas, martial arts can't be taken away when gotten, for example,) but those can be gotten around with an uplink or a bit of work to interesting effect that i think we lose something on by saying "there is no good enough IC reason to do this as sec."

edit: it's worth saying that 'it makes me do my job better' is much less sufficient of an IC reason under the current rule, too - what i'm saying here assumes that there is always a "situation" which might be appropriate afoot. if you get back to code green conditions, not unlike lethals, the RAW says "get it stored" and fairly enough so imo. if it's been dead quiet and everyone's been hanging out like the swamp tower guards in Monty Python and the Holy Grail with flower coronets on, the midround shouldn't suddenly fall neck-first onto a desword in an officer's back pocket.

[dendydoom]

it depends on variables like current alert level/threat, and how command wants things to be run, but generally the roleplaying aspect is important in that contraband is contraband and employees shouldn't be using it, especially those tasked with upholding the law. if it's evidence to execute someone, then it stands to reason that there is some forbidden nature about it that it shouldn't just translate into a straight, easily accessible and no-strings-attached buff that disregards the setting.

i would much rather have this enforced IC, but the challenge is in encouraging command to enforce it, which mechanically is working against their own ultimate interests (nerfing the combat ability of sec by taking away their god tier evil guns) but it creates an interesting dynamic which incorporates a good amount of depth to the scenario when command understand the assignment.

back in early manuel you didn't need to tell a hos this. they would just naturally tap into the setting and stop their subordinates from using the same contraband that they just executed someone for possessing.

conflict is an intrinsic part of the game, and this includes conflict that doesn't drill down to who has the biggest stat stick to hit each other with. taking risks around procedure because of the direness of the situation is an extremely immersive aspect of the game which i would like to protect.

[Higgin]

it depends on variables like current alert level/threat, and how command wants things to be run, but generally the roleplaying aspect is important in that contraband is contraband and employees shouldn't be using it, especially those tasked with upholding the law. if it's evidence to execute someone, then it stands to reason that there is some forbidden nature about it that it shouldn't just translate into a straight, easily accessible and no-strings-attached buff that disregards the setting.

[...]

even if it wasn't classed as contraband, using it would (if we wanna analogize to criminal procedure IRL) spoil the evidence, risk it being lost, and very probably break chain of custody. those are also serious IC considerations I didn't send up against using it, but often, this falls by the wayside because we're limited in the time we have to actually deal with evidence and sentencing within the round. sec and command on MRP are empowered to act as judge/jury/executioner in ways in which it seldom comes up - the decision gets taken for granted such that it doesn't need the evidence in most cases without people willfully applying the standards of a world where it does.

not sure how to suggest or reinforce they do otherwise with the game as it is now other than possibly writing the IC explanation into the rule - "if your actions were to be reviewed, make sure you have everything to prove you had good reason to do what you did and that is necessary to prove that they did what you say they did"

edit: i.e., if we're booking this guy for attempted murder instead of just contraband, and I say "he fired three shots before I got the cuffs on," the revolver better have three spent shells in the cylinder and have been checked in without me playing cowboy with it - which sort of precludes doing anything but taking it straight to evidence in a bag.

[dendydoom]

yes, a lot of procedure can't be approached with such rigidity - as you rightly say, there isn't enough time in the week let alone in an hour~ round to emulate legal proceedings. it's just part of the improv, we encourage people to enter that headspace because it's immersive, even if the actual minutiae of it is wholly unrealistic.

it just adds more depth that is available for people to hook into, leading to more varied and textured stories, and in my mind this should be encouraged as often as possible. rigid procedure leads to rote, efficient behaviour which in turn leads to rote, efficient responses. it creates a paradigm that is then enforced through the culture and becomes something that seems unbreakable - even if not written in stone in our rules, then the negative responses to breaking from procedure is often enough of a deterrent because it's upsetting to players to be the target of. navigating procedural and ethical dilemmas around the use and application of contraband within an IC context, and how that applies to things like security taking a measured risk for immediate gain but being reprimanded further down the line (the classic "loose cannon" cop who does what needs to be done to save the day, even if it means damning themselves in the eyes of their peers) is as classic a tale as any.

even if the numbers don't add up at the end of the day, it doesn't actually matter all that much - it is about the suspension of disbelief more than anything else.

[Vekter]

(snip)

I've always felt like buying from an open uplink kind of creates a lot of major balance issues that I want to avoid and opens up an IC concern of "actively using what the bad guys are using in situations where it's really not warranted". I think it should be on the same level as using very loud/dangerous antag gear as sec - if the station's at risk of being completely destroyed, all bets are off, but otherwise, put it in storage and don't fuck with it.

[Jeb]

I'm guilty of not reading everything, but could there (if not already) just be a ruling that "With regards to contraband it is acceptable to match force." If someone's punching people we shouldn't whipping out the esword and gutting them for example.

[TheLoLSwat]

security gets the short end of the stick way too often from admins, the crew, and antags. As captain / HOS i will never also stand in their way when it comes to something as small as using an open uplink for yourself or keeping a shotgun.

Ultimately this should stay an IC issue, as opening up the entire armory for your officers (including the contraband locker), is more of a grey area than something so oppressive that it should be OOCly handled. There are way too many RP consequences (good and bad) on both sides of the coin if sec go too far arming up and its fun seeing those rounds play out.

Edge cases where the person with the uplink has both the knowledge of the most broken shit to buy and the willingness to do it over buying anything else they might want to can be handled by admins and if im not mistaken isnt that already possible?

[Vekter]

security gets the short end of the stick way too often from admins, the crew, and antags. As captain / HOS i will never also stand in their way when it comes to something as small as using an open uplink for yourself or keeping a shotgun.

Ultimately this should stay an IC issue, as opening up the entire armory for your officers (including the contraband locker), is more of a grey area than something so oppressive that it should be OOCly handled. There are way too many RP consequences (good and bad) on both sides of the coin if sec go too far arming up and its fun seeing those rounds play out.

Edge cases where the person with the uplink has both the knowledge of the most broken shit to buy and the willingness to do it over buying anything else they might want to can be handled by admins and if im not mistaken isnt that already possible?

It's worth noting we're explicitly discussing MRP; there isn't an equivalent rule for LRP, though I would probably bonk a player who's just taking literally everything from the contraband locker and using it to ace antags on sight.

[kieth4]

from dreary;

"so i sort of think that it should be a case where you need to have a specific threat in mind to break out contraband, you can't just go "yeah i'm taking the desword on patrol fuck it"
but if it's like "omg space dragon/halo cultists/wizard/other big threat and i need to kill, open the contraband and get the forbidden guns" that should be fine"