[Rex9011] Squirrel Slapper - My IC reasons were perfectly fine

[SquirrelSlapper0487]

BYOND account: Squirrel Slapper
Character name: Sean Maguire
Ban type: server ban; command role ban
Ban length: 1 day; 7 days download/file.php?mode=view&id=4319
Ban reason: "As the captain killed and decapitated the head of personnel over the hop passively grabbing them and pulling them into their office, they thought the hop was choking them and that the hop was a ling due to this." download/file.php?mode=view&id=4318
Time ban was placed: 2024-02-10 22:43:14
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 69699

Reasons for Appealing
My actions were adequately justified IC. Early on in the round, the AI informed me that the Head of Personnel, Mimo Ironical, asked it to kill me. When I confronted them over the radio, they changed the subject immediately. They then stayed extremely quiet throughout the round. Later on, halls were full of carp and I was hearing talk of a changeling somewhere on the station. I got critted by carp. The medbay was almost directly south of me, and carp don't attack you when you're critted, I understood this. I set off crawling towards the medbay. Out of nowhere the shady HoP started pulling me back, into their office, only saying vague things like "think, cap, think". I started screaming down the radio. They kept going. They knew I thought they were about to kill me and yet they stayed silent. Standing over me in the corner of their office, with a passive grab on me. CMO and a few others came to save the day. All the HoP had to say for themself was "cap is restarted", and I was back up. They were still out there, and they stayed silent. I found them and gunned them down without a second thought. At no point leading up to this did they think to simply say over the radio "cap I was just trying to get you away from the space carp, you silly billy". They just stayed quiet. I was 100% certain that they were a changeling. The fact that they didn't turn out to be one puts the burden on them to explain why they seemingly did everything in their power to convince me that they WERE one. My IC reasons for killing and then decapitating them are adequate.
download/file.php?mode=view&id=4321
download/file.php?mode=view&id=4322
download/file.php?mode=view&id=4323
download/file.php?mode=view&id=4324

Is the reason/note factually accurate and fair?: No.
"Passively grabbed and pulled you into their office" is a wild way of putting it. Their shady behavior earlier in the round plus the fact that they dragged me further from the medbay while I was critted, and into a private room. The part of the conversation where the admin accused of of lying about being strangled was also dumbfounding. In that room, I was absolutely certain that they were strangling me, so much so that I didn't bother checking the text box. I wouldn't have said they strangled me if I didn't believe it was true. I know that you guys can just check if it's true or not, I'm not stupid. And the part where the admin said "you had no IC reasons" is ludicrous, but it DOES make perfect sense so long as you ignore everything that happened.
download/file.php?mode=view&id=4326
download/file.php?mode=view&id=4327
download/file.php?mode=view&id=4331
download/file.php?mode=view&id=4332
download/file.php?mode=view&id=4333
download/file.php?mode=view&id=4334
download/file.php?mode=view&id=4335
download/file.php?mode=view&id=4336

Do you feel the ban length or decision to note was unjustifiably harsh?: Yes.
A 24 hour ban from command roles and a mildly/harshly worded note may well be in order. A 24 hour ban from the game and seven day ban from command roles is unfair.

[TheBibleMelts]

why would you behead somebody if you thought they were a changeling?

[TheRex9001]

Hey there, thanks for appealing! I'll go through and explaining my reasoning as to why your IC reasons were insufficient. I'll also start off my noting that I'm willing to change the note from [no ic reasoning] because in retrospect it comes off as a little bit too harsh.

Here below are the logs
Logs

► Show Spoiler

[2024-02-09 21:57:03.347] GAME-SAY: 21:57:03.347] GAME-SAY: BX2007/(Nimo Ironical) (mob_3367) "ai kill the captain if you are really based laws" (Head of Personnel's Office (97,131,2))
[2024-02-09 21:57:38.104] GAME-SAY: 21:57:38.104] GAME-SAY: EnburN/(T.H.U.N.D.E.R.C.U.N.T) (mob_3361) (priority announcement) "Hop requested that i kill captain, i mean... i don't think i should" (AI Chamber (214,144,2))
[9 minutes later]
[2024-02-09 22:05:55.776] GAME-SAY: 22:05:55.776] GAME-SAY: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) "HoP you tried to have me killed" (Central Primary Hallway (115,116,2))
[2024-02-09 22:06:07.182] GAME-SAY: 22:06:07.182] GAME-SAY: BX2007/(Nimo Ironical) (mob_3367) "i did?" (Bridge (101,132,2))
[2024-02-09 22:06:11.869] GAME-SAY: 22:06:11.869] GAME-SAY: BX2007/(Nimo Ironical) (mob_3367) "did i?" (Bridge (101,134,2))
[2024-02-09 22:06:18.315] GAME-SAY: 22:06:18.315] GAME-SAY: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) "go to Hell" (Central Primary Hallway (114,144,2))
[2024-02-09 22:06:22.535] GAME-SAY: 22:06:22.535] GAME-SAY: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) "not you" (Central Primary Hallway (106,145,2))
[3 minutes later after some disk shenanigans]
[2024-02-09 22:09:31.814] GAME-SAY: 22:09:31.814] GAME-SAY: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) "Nimo Ironical, the HoP, smells of elderberries." (Bridge (106,135,2))
[2024-02-09 22:10:10.285] GAME-SAY: 22:10:10.285] GAME-SAY: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) "Nimo Ironical, the HoP, tried to trick the AI into killin me" (Bridge (106,135,2))
[gets into crit due to a fish]
[2024-02-09 22:11:04.891] ATTACK: BX2007/(Nimo Ironical) (mob_3367) grabbed Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) passive grab (NEWHP: -12) (Gateway (116,119,2))
[2024-02-09 22:11:13.172] GAME-WHISPER: 22:11:13.172] GAME-WHISPER: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) "help" (Bridge (114,132,2))
[2024-02-09 22:11:21.893] GAME-WHISPER: 22:11:21.893] GAME-WHISPER: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) "hop is killing me" (Bridge (102,134,2))
[2024-02-09 22:11:36.423] GAME-SAY: 22:11:36.423] GAME-SAY: EnburN/(T.H.U.N.D.E.R.C.U.N.T) (mob_3361) (priority announcement) "Hop killed captain in hop office" (AI Chamber (214,144,2))
[2024-02-09 22:11:46.944] GAME-SAY: 22:11:46.944] GAME-SAY: BX2007/(Nimo Ironical) (mob_3367) (station announcement from the �Head of Personnel's Desk requests console) "The cap just tried to use disable mode on a fish" (Head of Personnel's Office (97,134,2))
[2024-02-09 22:11:56.042] GAME-SAY: 22:11:56.042] GAME-SAY: BX2007/(Nimo Ironical) (mob_3367) "this cap is retarted" (Head of Personnel's Office (95,132,2))
[CMO comes and heals the captain in hops office]
[2024-02-09 22:12:02.501] GAME-WHISPER: 22:12:02.501] GAME-WHISPER: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) "fucking help" (Head of Personnel's Office (97,133,2))
[2024-02-09 22:12:05.966] GAME-SAY: 22:12:05.966] GAME-SAY: Iain0/(Bob Stange) (mob_3377) "yeah i am" (Head of Personnel's Office (97,132,2))
[2024-02-09 22:12:22.611] GAME-SAY: 22:12:22.611] GAME-SAY: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) "ARREST THE HOP NOW" (Head of Personnel's Office (97,133,2))
[2024-02-09 22:12:25.640] GAME-SAY: 22:12:25.640] GAME-SAY: Iain0/(Bob Stange) (mob_3377) "you'll be fine" (Head of Personnel's Office (97,132,2))
[2024-02-09 22:12:48.408] GAME-SAY: 22:12:48.408] GAME-SAY: BX2007/(Nimo Ironical) (mob_3367) "that is retarteds" (Bridge (103,137,2))
[2024-02-09 22:12:54.391] GAME-SAY: 22:12:54.391] GAME-SAY: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) "Thank you, CMO" (Head of Personnel's Office (97,133,2))

[killing the hop]
[2024-02-09 22:13:16.382] ATTACK: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) shot BX2007/(Nimo Ironical) with the laser (NEWHP: 100) (Bridge (101,131,2))
[2024-02-09 22:13:16.855] ATTACK: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) shot BX2007/(Nimo Ironical) with the laser (NEWHP: 75) (Bridge (101,131,2))
[2024-02-09 22:13:17.405] ATTACK: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) shot BX2007/(Nimo Ironical) with the laser (NEWHP: 50) (Bridge (101,131,2))
[2024-02-09 22:13:17.408] ATTACK: BX2007/(Nimo Ironical) (mob_3367) suffered: Third Degree Burns to chest | Damage: 27.5 (rolled 64/103.53) | WB: -20 | BWB: 40 (Bridge (101,128,2))
[2024-02-09 22:13:17.700] ATTACK: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) fired at BX2007/(Nimo Ironical) with the laser from Bridge (NEWHP: 22.5) (Bridge (101,131,2
[2024-02-09 22:13:18.783] ATTACK: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) shot BX2007/(Nimo Ironical) with the laser (NEWHP: 22.7) (Command Hallway (99,127,2))
[2024-02-09 22:13:22.547] ATTACK: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) shot BX2007/(Nimo Ironical) with the laser (NEWHP: -6.9) (Command Hallway (96,129,2))
[2024-02-09 22:13:25.961] ATTACK: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) kicked BX2007/(Nimo Ironical) (NEWHP: -39.1) (Command Hallway (95,129,2))
[2024-02-09 22:13:26.889] ATTACK: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) kicked BX2007/(Nimo Ironical) (NEWHP: -49.2) (Command Hallway (94,129,2))
[2024-02-09 22:13:27.750] ATTACK: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) kicked BX2007/(Nimo Ironical) (NEWHP: -67.1) (Command Hallway (95,129,2))
[2024-02-09 22:13:28.642] ATTACK: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) kicked BX2007/(Nimo Ironical) (NEWHP: -83.1) (Command Hallway (95,129,2))
[2024-02-09 22:13:29.480] ATTACK: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) kicked BX2007/(Nimo Ironical) (NEWHP: -100) (Command Hallway (95,129,2))
[2024-02-09 22:13:31.378] GAME-SAY: 22:13:31.378] GAME-SAY: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) "ling" (Command Hallway (95,129,2))
[2024-02-09 22:14:18.316] GAME-SAY: 22:14:18.316] GAME-SAY: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) "Ling is down" (Bridge (106,133,2))
[Beheading]
[2024-02-09 22:20:05.879] ATTACK: Squirrel Slapper/(Sean Maguire) (mob_3354) attacked *no key*/(Nimo Ironical) with amputation shears (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -150.1) (Medbay Storage (79,92,2))

What you would consider the start of the "hop" saga is at 21:57:03.347 when they say "ai kill the captain if you are really based laws", you then go mess around and confront the hop about it at 22:05:55.776 at which point you had the opportunity to arrest or brig the hop for what you would consider suspicious but decide to leave it at a verbal and just tell them to "go to hell". You then ask to arrest the hop followed by saying that they "smell like elderberries" at 22:10:10.285, at this point 13 minutes have passed since the original threat. The hops first request of the ai comes more off as a goof than an actual order but you would've been well within your rights to act upon it but instead you choose to insult them and leave it at that. You are then critted by a fish because you shot disabler beams at it instead of lasers, at this point the hop grabs you and you say "help" "hop is killing me". The hop makes fun of you for a bit and announces your failure to the crew, when the cmo arrives after the ai boldly states that you are being killed you get patched up and the hop doesn't interfere. After you are revived you gun down the hop. Now you make light on that the hop was silent, because they were. The hop was a mute signer, signers are unable to communicate if they are holding items which explains their tendency to not speak much. Not everyone knows that space carp stop attacking when you fall into crit so the hop thought they were saving you from carps or from being looted by tiders in the hall.

At no point did the hop ever strangle you, and in character you would've never thought you were being strangled because at no point did the hop strangle you therefore you saying that the hop was strangling you in an admin ticket is lying. You thinking ooc that the hop is strangling you does not amount to an IC reasoning. Them grabbing you and pulling you into a room alongside their behaviour earlier in the shift would be enough to warrant you trying to arrest the hop, maybe a demotion or brigging alongside a search but instead you immediately rush to lethals after the hop still has not attacked you once and you then behead them with a pair of amputation sheers.

The issue here isn't that you thought "they might be a ling" or "they might be an antagonist" its that you just killed them and without confirmation for either. What the hop said shift start is of course very shifty but by this point around 15 minutes had passed since it and they hadn't really interacted with you beyond it. You had plenty of opportunities to arrest or otherwise deal with the hop before you get critted by fish. This entire conflicts starting point was a fair place for you as a head of staff to end it through something like demoting or brigging the hop but instead you chose to leave it be for a long time. The reason you got this ban is due to the unjustified Hop kill and the abuse of your authority to label them a ling and then behead them when you had no tangible proof that they were a changeling beyond passive grabbing you to their office and letting you be saved by the cmo. You went to such lengths to kill and behead the hop with one piece of proof that they may have been an antagonist in general.

I'll ask you two questions: 1. Why did you think the hop was a changeling specifically? And why didn't you act to arrest or apprehend or demote or brig the hop when they told the ai to kill you? You presumably knew of it from shift start but why did you wait 15 minutes to act upon it?

[SquirrelSlapper0487]

why would you behead somebody if you thought they were a changeling?

So they can't come back to life

[SquirrelSlapper0487]

I'll ask you two questions: 1. Why did you think the hop was a changeling specifically? And why didn't you act to arrest or apprehend or demote or brig the hop when they told the ai to kill you? You presumably knew of it from shift start but why did you wait 15 minutes to act upon it?

1. The idea of a changeling being on the station first entered my mind when I heard people over the radio screaming that there had been one in cargo. Then very shortly after this the Fish Crit Drag Incident occurred which irreversibly convinced me that the changeling they spoke of was the HoP.

2. I busied myself with other things after that initial red flag, waiting to see how their behavior would unfold.

[SquirrelSlapper0487]

Hey there, thanks for appealing! I'll go through and explaining my reasoning as to why your IC reasons were insufficient. I'll also start off my noting that I'm willing to change the note from [no ic reasoning] because in retrospect it comes off as a little bit too harsh.

What you would consider the start of the "hop" saga is at 21:57:03.347 when they say "ai kill the captain if you are really based laws", you then go mess around and confront the hop about it at 22:05:55.776 at which point you had the opportunity to arrest or brig the hop for what you would consider suspicious but decide to leave it at a verbal and just tell them to "go to hell". You then ask to arrest the hop followed by saying that they "smell like elderberries" at 22:10:10.285, at this point 13 minutes have passed since the original threat. The hops first request of the ai comes more off as a goof than an actual order but you would've been well within your rights to act upon it but instead you choose to insult them and leave it at that. You are then critted by a fish because you shot disabler beams at it instead of lasers, at this point the hop grabs you and you say "help" "hop is killing me". The hop makes fun of you for a bit and announces your failure to the crew, when the cmo arrives after the ai boldly states that you are being killed you get patched up and the hop doesn't interfere. After you are revived you gun down the hop. Now you make light on that the hop was silent, because they were. The hop was a mute signer, signers are unable to communicate if they are holding items which explains their tendency to not speak much. Not everyone knows that space carp stop attacking when you fall into crit so the hop thought they were saving you from carps or from being looted by tiders in the hall.

At no point did the hop ever strangle you, and in character you would've never thought you were being strangled because at no point did the hop strangle you therefore you saying that the hop was strangling you in an admin ticket is lying. You thinking ooc that the hop is strangling you does not amount to an IC reasoning. Them grabbing you and pulling you into a room alongside their behaviour earlier in the shift would be enough to warrant you trying to arrest the hop, maybe a demotion or brigging alongside a search but instead you immediately rush to lethals after the hop still has not attacked you once and you then behead them with a pair of amputation sheers.

The issue here isn't that you thought "they might be a ling" or "they might be an antagonist" its that you just killed them and without confirmation for either. What the hop said shift start is of course very shifty but by this point around 15 minutes had passed since it and they hadn't really interacted with you beyond it. You had plenty of opportunities to arrest or otherwise deal with the hop before you get critted by fish. This entire conflicts starting point was a fair place for you as a head of staff to end it through something like demoting or brigging the hop but instead you chose to leave it be for a long time. The reason you got this ban is due to the unjustified Hop kill and the abuse of your authority to label them a ling and then behead them when you had no tangible proof that they were a changeling beyond passive grabbing you to their office and letting you be saved by the cmo. You went to such lengths to kill and behead the hop with one piece of proof that they may have been an antagonist in general.

Agreed, this is good criticism of my conduct and I should have done way better. I was under the assumption that my OOC not realising they'd never strangled me translated to some IC explanation like "my character was panicking and barely conscious at the time so assumed the worst", but now I see that that's not how it works. I also legitimately did not understand how the sign language mechanic worked. I'd seen in game that some people have an animated hand sign instead of a speech bubble, but never thought much of it.

Still believe a 7-day command role ban is too harsh, but I leave it in your hands.

[SquirrelSlapper0487]

Still believe a 7-day command role ban is too harsh, but I leave it in your hands.

To clarify, I see how flawed my IC reasons were, but don't believe they're so flawed as to deserve a 7-day command role ban.

[TheRex9001]

Still believe a 7-day command role ban is too harsh, but I leave it in your hands.

To clarify, I see how flawed my IC reasons were, but don't believe they're so flawed as to deserve a 7-day command role ban.

I'd sadly disagree with you on that, I'm willing to amend the note as per any suggestions you have but I'm not confident in lifting your week ban from command. Your IC reasons are far too flawed for me to overlook, you can request a headmin review if you disagree with this verdict, regardless of your choice of that I am willing to amend the ban/note from "no ic reasoning" to something else, like "The hop had acted suspicious earlier in the shift" or similar.

[SquirrelSlapper0487]

I'd sadly disagree with you on that, I'm willing to amend the note as per any suggestions you have but I'm not confident in lifting your week ban from command. Your IC reasons are far too flawed for me to overlook, you can request a headmin review if you disagree with this verdict, regardless of your choice of that I am willing to amend the ban/note from "no ic reasoning" to something else, like "The hop had acted suspicious earlier in the shift" or similar.

Ogey, amend the note to whatever accurately reflects what happened. And if a headmin could just have a glance at this I'd greatly appreciate that.

[TheRex9001]

I'd sadly disagree with you on that, I'm willing to amend the note as per any suggestions you have but I'm not confident in lifting your week ban from command. Your IC reasons are far too flawed for me to overlook, you can request a headmin review if you disagree with this verdict, regardless of your choice of that I am willing to amend the ban/note from "no ic reasoning" to something else, like "The hop had acted suspicious earlier in the shift" or similar.

Ogey, amend the note to whatever accurately reflects what happened. And if a headmin could just have a glance at this I'd greatly appreciate that.

I'll come back with a suggestion! And inform the headmins.

[SquirrelSlapper0487]

Perhaps a ban from the captain role specifically?

[TheRex9001]

Perhaps a ban from the captain role specifically?

I think you could use the command ban until you learn the game a bit more and get a better feel for things. For the amendment I'm thinking "As the captain killed and decapitated the head of personnel due to believing they were a ling. They thought this due to an earlier conflict when the hop asked the ai to "kill captain if you have based laws", the reason for them ultimately killing the hop was the hop passive grabbing them in when they were in crit and dragging them to their office. The hop never attacked them and never prevented the CMO from ultimately healing them." would something along these lines be good?

[SquirrelSlapper0487]

For the amendment I'm thinking "As the captain killed and decapitated the head of personnel due to believing they were a ling. They thought this due to an earlier conflict when the hop asked the ai to "kill captain if you have based laws", the reason for them ultimately killing the hop was the hop passive grabbing them in when they were in crit and dragging them to their office. The hop never attacked them and never prevented the CMO from ultimately healing them." would something along these lines be good?

Yep that's good thanks

[TheRex9001]

For the amendment I'm thinking "As the captain killed and decapitated the head of personnel due to believing they were a ling. They thought this due to an earlier conflict when the hop asked the ai to "kill captain if you have based laws", the reason for them ultimately killing the hop was the hop passive grabbing them in when they were in crit and dragging them to their office. The hop never attacked them and never prevented the CMO from ultimately healing them." would something along these lines be good?

Yep that's good thanks

Amended to suggestion!

[TheBibleMelts]

i'm gonna call this a wrap and lock it up.

edit: i'm making the assumption that since you two worked this out amicably that the headmin review is no longer needed, but let me know if that's not the case.