Ban TC and Antag Trades (Sort of)

[Vekter]

Don't murder me until you've read the whole suggestion. This isn't me saying that admins shouldn't assist in antag matters if it's cool, I just think we can do better.

The problems with TC trades:
- Transactional: Players feel like they have to give up something to get something, and it often results in some players not being willing to come to us with cool gimmicks while others feel like we're screwing them by not accepting their trades.
- Often boring: More often than not, the TC trade requests I get are either something banal like a piece of gear to look cooler or some hilariously broken item, hoping that I wouldn't know how stupid it was and would just hand it over.
- Not gimmick/roleplay based: A lot of TC trades revolve more around changing up someone's gameplay than it does anything revolving actually doing something interesting or funny.

My suggestion is that we should pivot to simply having a provision that says that players can come to admins for help making a cool gimmick happen. It's always going to be up to that admin as to whether or not they actually help, but I feel like this better accomplishes the idea of "helping cool/fun things happen" than TC trades do. If an admin decides they want to take TC to do it, that's of course fine, but players should be encouraged to use admin requests to make something fun happen, not just to get a tool that makes it easier for them to make people horizontal. I'd rather have a player adminhelp and go "I want to do something cool, can you help me?" than have them go "Can I trade 5 TC for [random item]?". The former makes it easier for me to make that thing happen.

As for antag trades, I've never been a big fan of these. The game handed you one thing and I'm not sure I've ever found a good reason to give you another just because you don't feel like playing that specifically right now. I think the exception should be in the above case, where you have a cool gimmick you want to do but you need a specific antag to make it happen, but just going "I'm bored with being traitor, can I be heretic?" is lame and should be discouraged.

tl;dr Ban TC trades in favor of just asking admins to help a gimmick/concept work, ban antag trades save for specific gimmick reasons.

E: I brought up players intentionally asking less experienced admins for broken items. I don't think that's a huge concern in the grand scheme of things - if we have proof someone's doing it multiple times, we can cover it under rule 1.

[8bot]

Why not just add that clause stating that you can ask an admin, while still allowing players to trade TC/antag status for something they wouldn't have gotten on the admin's good will alone? Allows a bit of wiggle room, there.

Example A:

"Can I have admin help with x?"

"Sure."

Example B:

"Can I have admin help with x? I'll pay 10 TC."

"Hmmmm, deal."

Example C:

"Can I have admin help with x?"

"Sure, but you will need to give me 15 TC."

"Aw, okay."


More options is always good.

[Vekter]

Why not just add that clause stating that you can ask an admin, while still allowing players to trade TC/antag status for something they wouldn't have gotten on the admin's good will alone? Allows a bit of wiggle room, there.

Example A:

"Can I have admin help with x?"

"Sure."

Example B:

"Can I have admin help with x? I'll pay 10 TC."

"Hmmmm, deal."

Example C:

"Can I have admin help with x?"

"Sure, but you will need to give me 15 TC."

"Aw, okay."


More options is always good.

That's kind of what I'm suggesting. What I want to do away with is players adminhelping asking "Can I have [x] for [y] TC?". I don't think players should expect admins to just give an item to them for any amount of TC without them having an interesting idea for it. If the player came forward and said "Can I have [x] for [y] TC? I wanna do [z]", we'd be golden. That lets the admin know what the player wants to try and can help the admin do further stuff to make it work better, or have other suggestions to help.

[EmpressMaia]

If you think a player is tc trading solely to kill people quicker then just deny it Based on that

[sinfulbliss]

So this would be admin-facing policy, i.e. admin conduct rules?

If so I don’t see how in the world you enforce this. If an admin gives someone an item in trade for TC, they get batcaved? Admins should be able to trade an item here and there if they think it’s a fun idea or just too minor to be a concern, I don’t see why the need a policy restricting them from doing that.

[Vekter]

So this would be admin-facing policy, i.e. admin conduct rules?

If so I don’t see how in the world you enforce this. If an admin gives someone an item in trade for TC, they get batcaved? Admins should be able to trade an item here and there if they think it’s a fun idea or just too minor to be a concern, I don’t see why the need a policy restricting them from doing that.

Go re-read my post and then try again.

[sinfulbliss]

So this would be admin-facing policy, i.e. admin conduct rules?

If so I don’t see how in the world you enforce this. If an admin gives someone an item in trade for TC, they get batcaved? Admins should be able to trade an item here and there if they think it’s a fun idea or just too minor to be a concern, I don’t see why the need a policy restricting them from doing that.

Go re-read my post and then try again.

Your post just seems to be coping about admins doing TC trades in a way you disagree with, or players asking for TC trades you dislike.

Again I would love to hear your path to enforce this policy. If it’s an admin conduct rule then enforcement would be batcaving admins for doing minor TC trades, if it’s a player conduct rule then enforcement would be noting someone for ahelping for a trade.

[Vekter]

So this would be admin-facing policy, i.e. admin conduct rules?

If so I don’t see how in the world you enforce this. If an admin gives someone an item in trade for TC, they get batcaved? Admins should be able to trade an item here and there if they think it’s a fun idea or just too minor to be a concern, I don’t see why the need a policy restricting them from doing that.

Go re-read my post and then try again.

Your post just seems to be coping about admins doing TC trades in a way you disagree with, or players asking for TC trades you dislike.

Again I would love to hear your path to implement this policy, and enforce it. If it’s an admin conduct rule then enforcement would be batcaving admins for doing minor TC trades, if it’s a player conduct rule then enforcement would be noting someone for ahelping for a trade.

The only enforcement that would be necessary would be guidelines to deny anyone who asks for a straight TC trade without giving an idea or gimmick to go with it, why the fuck does everything have to come down to bans or notes with you?

[sinfulbliss]

So this would be admin-facing policy, i.e. admin conduct rules?

If so I don’t see how in the world you enforce this. If an admin gives someone an item in trade for TC, they get batcaved? Admins should be able to trade an item here and there if they think it’s a fun idea or just too minor to be a concern, I don’t see why the need a policy restricting them from doing that.

Go re-read my post and then try again.

Your post just seems to be coping about admins doing TC trades in a way you disagree with, or players asking for TC trades you dislike.

Again I would love to hear your path to implement this policy, and enforce it. If it’s an admin conduct rule then enforcement would be batcaving admins for doing minor TC trades, if it’s a player conduct rule then enforcement would be noting someone for ahelping for a trade.

The only enforcement that would be necessary would be guidelines to deny anyone who asks for a straight TC trade without giving an idea or gimmick to go with it, why the fuck does everything have to come down to bans or notes with you?

Unfortunately in order for rules to matter, there needs to be a willingness to enforce them. I don’t envision any sane headmin batcaving an admin for TC trading an item without an “idea” or “gimmick” behind it.

I feel like this is just trying to make your own personal preference into policy for some odd reason, there is literally no harm in an admin trading for something for TC, why force an idea or gimmick where one doesn’t exist?

[Vekter]

Unfortunately in order for rules to matter, there needs to be a willingness to enforce them. I don’t envision any sane headmin batcaving an admin for TC trading an item without an “idea” or “gimmick” behind it.

I feel like this is just trying to make your own personal preference into policy for some odd reason, there is literally no harm in an admin trading for something for TC, why force an idea or gimmick where one doesn’t exist?

Your input is noted. Rules can also simply be used as guidelines for how to do something.

The only reason someone would request an item for TC trade and not have some kind of gimmick or interesting idea attached to it is if it would help them kill people better. A gimmick or idea could be something as simple as "I would like this hat because it would make me look like a cool gangster". All I'm asking is that we require players to think things through and have a reason for asking for a TC trade before doing so.

[Striders13]

If a player trades with a clueless admin for an op item it's funny, soul and an opportunity for said admin to learn.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I don't care much about TC trades, but as a low/deadpop player, antag trades are a much needed breath of fresh air. Most antags who aren't vanilla traitor have population requirements, I'm pretty sure my favorite antag, Heretic, has a 15 pop requirement or something (I usually play in 5-15 pop). So my antag rolls are probably something ridiculous like 98 or 99% just regular traitor.

I have also literally never been Ninja or Abductor despite my several thousand hours of play. I've only ever been Revenant once, Wizard twice, and Team nukies I think 3 times (once as squad leader)

So like... Antag trades are pretty vital for me unless I want to just be vanilla traitor, forever, due to these restrictions.

Don't get me wrong, I like vanilla traitor but... A bit of variety is nice, you know?

So yeah, you can ditch TC trades, but please don't ditch antag trades.

[Vekter]

I don't care much about TC trades, but as a low/deadpop player, antag trades are a much needed breath of fresh air. Most antags who aren't vanilla traitor have population requirements, I'm pretty sure my favorite antag, Heretic, has a 15 pop requirement or something (I usually play in 5-15 pop). So my antag rolls are probably something ridiculous like 98 or 99% just regular traitor.

I have also literally never been Ninja or Abductor despite my several thousand hours of play. I've only ever been Revenant once, Wizard twice, and Team nukies I think 3 times (once as squad leader)

So like... Antag trades are pretty vital for me unless I want to just be vanilla traitor, forever, due to these restrictions.

Don't get me wrong, I like vanilla traitor but... A bit of variety is nice, you know?

So yeah, you can ditch TC trades, but please don't ditch antag trades.

I get where you're coming from, but there's a reason those antags are limited to rounds with 15 or more players. Introducing one to a low pop round would screw the game balance up and that's not something I feel like we should be doing on the regular.

If you disagree about the balance argument, you'd need to convince the head admins to change the pop limit for Heretics, which would need to be another thread.

[sinfulbliss]

The only reason someone would request an item for TC trade and not have some kind of gimmick or interesting idea attached to it is if it would help them kill people better.

That’s a very close-minded way of thinking about it. A few weeks ago, I TC traded for a contractor baton for like 8 TC (before it was added to the uplink). I could've just tided a baton but I simply enjoyed the item and wanted to get an unobtainable item for fun.

It didn’t help me kill people better, in fact the goal wasn’t even to kill with it. I also never mentioned a “gimmick” or “idea” when I asked for it, although I ended up pretending to be a contractor with a cham kit and prioritizing kidnap objectives, this was only after I got the TC trade. If the admin asked me what my idea or gimmick was ahead of time I wouldn’t have had an answer because normal people don’t meticulously plan out their antag round before it happens, they go with the flow and gimmicks and ideas naturally come to them.

[NecromancerAnne]

Iunno if we need ban the practice outright, just keep admins up to date on common bad trades and at least investigating the reason for the trade before agreeing.

[Indie-ana Jones]

Seems pointless

[Cheshify]

If someone asks for martial arts, solo abductor, the greytide spear , or anything of that nature I should be allowed to respond with teehee and then gib them without repercussions

[Cheshify]

On a less shitposty note, antag-for-antag trades are worse than any baity TC trades for wack gear. We should really be encouraging people to roll for the antags they want and not for everything to maximise the chance of an antag roll.

[dendydoom]

i agree with the ppl that say it's an admin education issue. experience tells you when a trade is bad or when it could be really fun for a round. i've granted antag swaps and tc traded people for martial arts and all of the big no-no taboo trades. because i did the legwork to figure out whether the player is just antag rolling or what the impact would be and what the player planned to do with it, they turned out to be good rounds.

i disagree with the idea that players can't be trusted so bad that we need to blanket ban all trades. but players should not expect them and admins shouldn't feel pressured to grant them. the admin should use their tools and knowledge to make an informed decision and the player should have to accept the outcome of that decision.

[Misdoubtful]

Iunno if we need ban the practice outright, just keep admins up to date on common bad trades and at least investigating the reason for the trade before agreeing.

Bingo.

Encourage or create something that outlines or reinforces better practices and red flags, rather than killing the function altogether.

There is an obscene level of potential improvement with this one, and I'd rather see energy be directed towards that.

[Fikou]

Quoting myself from headmin bus
"SS13 is a giant improv theatre and asking the producers to exchange a prop isnt something that should be restricted. they can deny the request if they wish so anyway"
If you don't want to accept a trade like that then just don't. you can tell the player you don't like trades like that and then either theyll give you a good one or you can ignore them
Fikou: Wrote this
TBM: I would rather not have it codified either way also
Cheshify: We should ban flat antag for antag trades