[archie700] Thranos - Command Ban

[Thranos]

BYOND account: Thranos

Character name: Laura Winters

Ban type: Command Ban

Ban length: ̶P̶e̶r̶m̶a̶n̶e̶n̶t̶ three days apparently (also a day general ban)

Ban reason: Banned from Roles: Captain, Head of Personnel, Chief Engineer, Quartermaster, Chief Medical Officer, Research Director, Head of Security for 3 days - As a CMO with acting Captain, killed a lizard and then demoted him after being nonharmfully batoned, kicked out, and called a retard twice over demanding the QM sort out mail and then batoning him when he refused. You've been warned about overescalation before and if you see people calling you slurs you should ahelp it instead of taking it into your own hands.

Time ban was placed: 2023-08-29 22:57:53

Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel

Round ID in which ban was placed: 213672

Your side of the story: I was acting cap CMO. A sentient cleanbot informed me that I had "a lot of mail" piling up at cargo, which confused me, as we were on meta and there's departmental chutes that take all of two seconds to toss mail into. I got to cargo and saw an obscenely large pile of mail outside, and went into cargo to yell at them. The QM got very hostile very fast, and was batonned one (1) time. His response was to baton me back, steal my baton, physically eject me from cargo, bar me from re-entry, and call me a slur like 2-4 times- all because I (acting cap) dared tell him to do his job. I returned with a makarov sec had sitting around for some reason (they had a ton of syndie gear, come to think of it) and filled the QM with lead for slur usage and assaulting the captain. I then revived and demoted them, after which they responded to a "do you want to be demoted more because I can do that" with a snide "sure, go ahead", and were fully demoted. A bunch of other insanity happened after this including a giant riot in front of sec for arresting me, but that's not relevant to the content of the ban.

Why you think you should be unbanned: I have been told repeatedly and by multiple Manuel admins that slur usage makes people valid, and that retard is a slur. I have seen people be ahelped for it, and I have ahelped people for it. I have seen people lynched by a mob for it. I have seen people be ROUND REMOVED for it, with no OOC consequences, as it was ruled an IC issue by staff. I believe the issue at hand here is that archie700 is unfamiliar with how Manuel operates. This was not round removal, even. This was someone talking shit, getting hit, and getting revived after. No round removal was involved. No extreme punishment (IE nuggeting) was involved. They were revived in a reasonable time, etc.

I believe that any other admin who's generally active on Manuel would have at worst left a note, and much more likely simply marked it as an IC issue after a "hey make sure you revive them" type bwoink.

[Thranos]

I was led to believe in the ticket that the command ban was permanent, and only just saw that it was a three day. Still appealing, as I feel that this is an extreme response to the situation that occurred.

[conrad]

On regards to the usage of retard, as per headmin ruling

At this time, we are choosing not to go as far as to say all uses of the word "retard"/"retarded" are bigoted, just hurtful, but being hurtful isn't what rule 11 is about. However, excessive harassment/spew like this (such as repeatedly demeaning someone to the point where you're being a dick more than you are roleplaying as a rude character) will continue to be enforcable under rule 1. There are no changes there, and we intend to defend admins who act on that.

viewtopic.php?p=636029

[dendydoom]

adding what i feel are relevant facts for this:

in the entire log file for the round there are only 2 instances of this player saying a bad bad word, and only one of those times was in the cargo bay:

Line 7763: [2023-08-29 21:38:56.739] GAME-SAY: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) "what kind of monumental retard comes in, complains about the mail, and when they get told off, baton and throw a fit when they get thrown out" (Cargo Bay (74,147,2))

Line 17500: [2023-08-29 22:22:41.203] GAME-SAY: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) "retard" (Medbay Central (97,103,2))

the second instance appears to be long after the initial conflict was over.

EDIT: 3 instances, they misspelt it so it did not turn up in the search:

[2023-08-29 21:38:04.769] GAME-SAY: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) "stop being retarted" (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))

[Sightld2]

I have been told repeatedly and by multiple Manuel admins that slur usage makes people valid, and that retard is a slur.

Could you name the admins in question? If you have been misled by any of us in the past, that takes some culpability away from you and into our hands. I am happy to sort through your ticket history to find this, but if you could give names it would make my search easier.

[BrolyButterfingers]

I have been told repeatedly and by multiple Manuel admins that slur usage makes people valid, and that retard is a slur.

Could you name the admins in question? If you have been misled by any of us in the past, that takes some culpability away from you and into our hands. I am happy to sort through your ticket history to find this, but if you could give names it would make my search easier.

https://bus.moth.fans/tickets/199790/5

[Thranos]

I have been told repeatedly and by multiple Manuel admins that slur usage makes people valid, and that retard is a slur.

Could you name the admins in question? If you have been misled by any of us in the past, that takes some culpability away from you and into our hands. I am happy to sort through your ticket history to find this, but if you could give names it would make my search easier.

I genuinely cannot, sorry. I've just seen this in general voiced by both staff and players on Manuel: That yelling real life slurs, or anything that's a thinly veiled "IC" version of them (I.E. 'Ligger') effectively makes someone valid. It doesn't help that I'm unsure if this was in ahelps, OOC discussions, or elsewhere, unfortunately.

[conrad]

I have been told repeatedly and by multiple Manuel admins that slur usage makes people valid, and that retard is a slur.

Could you name the admins in question? If you have been misled by any of us in the past, that takes some culpability away from you and into our hands. I am happy to sort through your ticket history to find this, but if you could give names it would make my search easier.

https://bus.moth.fans/tickets/199790/5

Just as a clarification, this is where and how it went:

At the very least reduce the amount of times youre calling them retarded, and Ill call it a good compromise.

I've said it probably less than 3 dozen times in total in more than 500 hours.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Good enough for me. Just dont forget that insults like that open you up to IC retaliation

Retaliation doesn't necessarily mean valid. Valid means you can be round-removed. Retaliation means starting or continuing escalation. Thanks for sharing, anyway.

[Thranos]

I have been told repeatedly and by multiple Manuel admins that slur usage makes people valid, and that retard is a slur.

Could you name the admins in question? If you have been misled by any of us in the past, that takes some culpability away from you and into our hands. I am happy to sort through your ticket history to find this, but if you could give names it would make my search easier.

https://bus.moth.fans/tickets/199790/5

Just as a clarification, this is where and how it went:

At the very least reduce the amount of times youre calling them retarded, and Ill call it a good compromise.

I've said it probably less than 3 dozen times in total in more than 500 hours.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Good enough for me. Just dont forget that insults like that open you up to IC retaliation

Retaliation doesn't necessarily mean valid. Valid means you can be round-removed. Retaliation means starting or continuing escalation. Thanks for sharing, anyway.

I mean, that's what happened here, is it not? IC Retaliation. The QM talked shit and got hit, as it were. They were revived and demoted. They weren't gibbed, spaced, cremated, etc. They didn't languish in medbay for half an hour. They were revived promptly (by me).

[conrad]

I mean, that's what happened here, is it not? IC Retaliation. The QM talked shit and got hit, as it were. They were revived and demoted. They weren't gibbed, spaced, cremated, etc. They didn't languish in medbay for half an hour. They were revived promptly (by me).

Just so I'm not rude and it looks like I ignored you, I have to abstain from responding to this. This is archie's ban and I already threatened to thread the thin line of peanutting. Hopefully the insight provided was helpful. :salute:

[TheBibleMelts]

I have been told repeatedly and by multiple Manuel admins that slur usage makes people valid, and that retard is a slur.

Could you name the admins in question? If you have been misled by any of us in the past, that takes some culpability away from you and into our hands. I am happy to sort through your ticket history to find this, but if you could give names it would make my search easier.

https://bus.moth.fans/tickets/199790/5

Just as a clarification, this is where and how it went:

At the very least reduce the amount of times youre calling them retarded, and Ill call it a good compromise.

I've said it probably less than 3 dozen times in total in more than 500 hours.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Good enough for me. Just dont forget that insults like that open you up to IC retaliation

Retaliation doesn't necessarily mean valid. Valid means you can be round-removed. Retaliation means starting or continuing escalation. Thanks for sharing, anyway.

I mean, that's what happened here, is it not? IC Retaliation. The QM talked shit and got hit, as it were. They were revived and demoted. They weren't gibbed, spaced, cremated, etc. They didn't languish in medbay for half an hour. They were revived promptly (by me).

were you not the first one to initiate this as a physical conflict, with the QM as the defender?

[Thranos]

I mean, that's what happened here, is it not? IC Retaliation. The QM talked shit and got hit, as it were. They were revived and demoted. They weren't gibbed, spaced, cremated, etc. They didn't languish in medbay for half an hour. They were revived promptly (by me).

Just so I'm not rude and it looks like I ignored you, I have to abstain from responding to this. This is archie's ban and I already threatened to thread the thin line of peanutting. Hopefully the insight provided was helpful. :salute:

Ah, gotcha. Thank you for the clarification, I'm not overly familiar with peanutting/etc policy on here.

[Archie700]

So let's establish the timeline:

You come in to Cargo as a CMO/Acting Captain wearing CMO clothes and shout:

Code: Select all

[2023-08-29 21:36:54.443] GAME-SAY: Thranos/(Laura Winters) "WHO" (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:36:55.876] GAME-SAY: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) "not really" (Cargo Bay (74,149,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:00.862] GAME-SAY: Thranos/(Laura Winters) "IS PILING THE MAIL OUTSIDE" (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:11.934] GAME-SAY: Thranos/(Laura Winters) "You have fucking |DEPARTMENT CHUTES| QM." (Cargo Bay (74,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:15.134] GAME-SAY: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) "me, and if you are gonna come in and yell, fuck off" (Cargo Bay (72,149,2))

Then you start batoning and get your shit pushed in response and your baton confiscated.

Code: Select all

[2023-08-29 21:37:19.127] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) stun attacked Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 100)  (Cargo Bay (74,146,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:22.686] ATTACK: Dalmationer/(Lady Penelope Dreadful) shoved Thranos/(Laura Winters) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 95.5)  (Cargo Bay (76,146,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:23.053] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) shaken Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) (NEWHP: 100)  (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:23.725] ATTACK: Dalmationer/(Lady Penelope Dreadful) kicks Thranos/(Laura Winters) with onto their side (paralyzing) (NEWHP: 95.5)  (Cargo Bay (76,146,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:23.727] ATTACK: Dalmationer/(Lady Penelope Dreadful) shoved Thranos/(Laura Winters) (NEWHP: 95.5)  (Cargo Bay (76,146,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:25.049] ATTACK: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) stun attacked Thranos/(Laura Winters) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 95.5)  (Cargo Bay (73,148,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:26.507] ATTACK: Dalmationer/(Lady Penelope Dreadful) attacked Thranos/(Laura Winters) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 95.5)  (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:27.497] ATTACK: Dalmationer/(Lady Penelope Dreadful) attacked Thranos/(Laura Winters) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 95.5)  (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:29.526] ATTACK: Dalmationer/(Lady Penelope Dreadful) stun attacked Thranos/(Laura Winters) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 95.5)  (Cargo Bay (74,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:29.877] ATTACK: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) stun attacked Thranos/(Laura Winters) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 95.5)  (Cargo Bay (73,149,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:31.077] ATTACK: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) grabbed Thranos/(Laura Winters) passive grab (NEWHP: 95.5)  (Cargo Bay (73,148,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:35.325] ATTACK: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) grabbed Thranos/(Laura Winters) aggressive grab (NEWHP: 95.5)  (Storage Wing (79,146,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:36.854] ATTACK: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) thrown Thranos/(Laura Winters) grab from tile in Storage Wing (80,145,2) towards tile at Storage Wing (86,147,2) (NEWHP: 95.5)  (Storage Wing (80,145,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:36.856] ATTACK: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) has thrown Laura Winters  (Storage Wing (80,145,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:56.030] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) shoved Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 100)  (Cargo Bay (75,146,2))
[2023-08-29 21:38:01.769] ATTACK: Dalmationer/(Lady Penelope Dreadful) shoved Thranos/(Laura Winters) (NEWHP: 95.5)  (Cargo Bay (76,145,2))

During and after the fight this happens:

Code: Select all

[2023-08-29 21:37:35.819] GAME-SAY: Thranos/(Laura Winters) "Cargo coup in progress." (Storage Wing (79,146,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:46.498] GAME-SAY: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) "larua dont fucking come back" (Cargo Bay (74,146,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:49.100] GAME-SAY: Thranos/(Laura Winters) "Because I told the QM to sort the fucking mail." (Storage Wing (86,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:57.426] GAME-SAY: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) "she came in and comlained about mai;" (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:58.783] GAME-SAY: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) "dude" (Cargo Bay (74,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:38:04.769] GAME-SAY: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) "stop being retarted" (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:38:06.399] GAME-SAY: Thranos/(Laura Winters) "Use the fucking DEPARTMENT CHUTES." (Storage Wing (78,146,2))
[2023-08-29 21:38:07.454] GAME-SAY: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) "fuck off" (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:38:08.737] GAME-EMOTE: Dalmationer/(Lady Penelope Dreadful) points at Spreads-The-Doubt (Cargo Bay (76,145,2))
[2023-08-29 21:38:14.942] GAME-EMOTE: Dalmationer/(Lady Penelope Dreadful) points at Spreads-The-Doubt (Cargo Bay (75,145,2))
[2023-08-29 21:38:27.757] GAME-SAY: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) "this fuckin bitch came in and complainted about the fucking mail" (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:38:45.252] GAME-SAY: Thranos/(Laura Winters) "No, it's attacking the Captain followed by calling me a retard and assaulting me again, Sheness." (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
[2023-08-29 21:38:56.739] GAME-SAY: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) "what kind of monumental retard comes in, complains about the mail, and when they get told off, baton and throw a fit when they get thrown out" (Cargo Bay (74,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:38:57.751] GAME-SAY: Thranos/(Laura Winters) "Baton." (Storage Wing (77,146,2))

"Retard" was said twice, and it was in direct response to your actions.

Then the shootings happen.

Code: Select all

[2023-08-29 21:38:59.609] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) fired at [floor] with 9mm bullet from Cargo Bay (Cargo Bay (76,146,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:00.335] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) fired at Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) with 9mm bullet from Cargo Bay (NEWHP: 100)  (Cargo Bay (76,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:00.506] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) shot Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) with 9mm bullet (NEWHP: 97.6)  (Cargo Bay (76,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:00.509] ATTACK: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) suffered: Minor Skin Breakage to head | Damage: 30 (rolled 100/116.942) | WB: -5 (Cargo Bay (74,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:00.751] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) fired at Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) with 9mm bullet from Cargo Bay (NEWHP: 67.6)  (Cargo Bay (76,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:00.855] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) shot Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) with 9mm bullet (NEWHP: 67.6)  (Cargo Bay (76,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:01.373] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) fired at Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) with 9mm bullet from Cargo Bay (NEWHP: 37.8)  (Cargo Bay (76,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:01.874] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) fired at Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) with 9mm bullet from Cargo Bay (NEWHP: 37.8)  (Cargo Bay (76,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:02.043] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) shot Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) with 9mm bullet (NEWHP: 35.4)  (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:02.048] ATTACK: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) suffered: Open Puncture to head | Damage: 30 (rolled 52/116.942) | WB: -5 (Cargo Bay (75,145,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:02.857] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) fired at [floor] with 9mm bullet from Cargo Bay (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:02.966] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) shot Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) with 9mm bullet (NEWHP: 3)  (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:03.254] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) fired at Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) with 9mm bullet from Cargo Bay (NEWHP: -27)  (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:03.368] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) shot Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) with 9mm bullet (NEWHP: -27)  (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:03.714] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) fired at Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) with 9mm bullet from Cargo Bay (NEWHP: -57)  (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:03.833] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) shot Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) with 9mm bullet (NEWHP: -57)  (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:03.837] ATTACK: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) suffered: Ruptured Cavity to head | Damage: 30 (rolled 101/116.942) | WB: -5 (Cargo Bay (76,145,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:04.212] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) fired at Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) with 9mm bullet from Cargo Bay (NEWHP: -88.8)  (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:04.327] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) shot Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) with 9mm bullet (NEWHP: -88.8)  (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:04.329] ATTACK: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) suffered: Hairline Fracture to head | Damage: 22.5 (rolled 30/78.1728) | WB: -5 (Cargo Bay (76,145,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:04.349] ATTACK: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) has died (BRUTE: 200, BURN: 0, TOX: 0, OXY: 2, CLONE: 0) (Cargo Bay (76,145,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:06.520] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) grabbed *no key*/(Spreads-The-Doubt) passive grab (NEWHP: -102)  (Cargo Bay (76,146,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:07.349] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) grabbed *no key*/(Spreads-The-Doubt) aggressive grab (NEWHP: -102)  (Cargo Bay (76,146,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:11.375] ATTACK: Dalmationer/(Lady Penelope Dreadful) shoved Thranos/(Laura Winters) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 95.5)  (Cargo Bay (75,146,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:12.401] ATTACK: Dalmationer/(Lady Penelope Dreadful) grabbed Thranos/(Laura Winters) passive grab (NEWHP: 95.5)  (Cargo Bay (75,146,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:13.474] ATTACK: Dalmationer/(Lady Penelope Dreadful) grabbed Thranos/(Laura Winters) aggressive grab (NEWHP: 95.5)  (Cargo Bay (75,146,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:14.550] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) pulled from Dalmationer/(Lady Penelope Dreadful) with Emerald Bromson (NEWHP: 100)  (Cargo Bay (76,146,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:14.552] ATTACK: HalfAwake691/(Emerald Bromson) grabbed Thranos/(Laura Winters) passive grab (NEWHP: 95.5)  (Storage Wing (77,146,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:19.107] ATTACK: Dalmationer/(Lady Penelope Dreadful) grabbed *no key*/(Spreads-The-Doubt) passive grab (NEWHP: -102)  (Cargo Bay (75,145,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:19.209] ATTACK: *no key*/(Spreads-The-Doubt) pulled from Dalmationer/(Lady Penelope Dreadful) with Laura Winters (NEWHP: 100)  (Cargo Bay (76,146,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:19.211] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) grabbed *no key*/(Spreads-The-Doubt) passive grab (NEWHP: -102)  (Storage Wing (77,146,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:21.080] ATTACK: Thranos/(Laura Winters) grabbed *no key*/(Spreads-The-Doubt) aggressive grab (NEWHP: -102)  (Storage Wing (79,145,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:23.761] ATTACK: *no key*/(Spreads-The-Doubt) pulled from Thranos/(Laura Winters) with Lady Penelope Dreadful (NEWHP: 95.5)  (Storage Wing (78,145,2))
[2023-08-29 21:39:23.763] ATTACK: Dalmationer/(Lady Penelope Dreadful) grabbed *no key*/(Spreads-The-Doubt) passive grab (NEWHP: -102)  (Storage Wing (77,146,2))

After that you revived them and demoted them twice, first to a cargo tech, then to an assistant after they argued back.

All the times retard was used:

Code: Select all

[2023-08-29 21:37:58.783] GAME-SAY: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) "dude" (Cargo Bay (74,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:38:04.769] GAME-SAY: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) "stop being retarted" (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))

[2023-08-29 21:38:45.252] GAME-SAY: Thranos/(Laura Winters) "No, it's attacking the Captain followed by calling me a retard and assaulting me again, Sheness." (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))

[2023-08-29 21:38:56.739] GAME-SAY: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) "what kind of monumental retard comes in, complains about the mail, and when they get told off, baton and throw a fit when they get thrown out" (Cargo Bay (74,147,2))

[2023-08-29 21:40:28.194] GAME-SAY: Thranos/(Laura Winters) "Assaulting me and calling me a retard." (Medbay Storage (82,94,2))
 
 [2023-08-29 22:22:36.099] GAME-SAY: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) "I said one slur" (Medbay Central (97,103,2))
[2023-08-29 22:22:41.203] GAME-SAY: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) "retard" (Medbay Central (97,103,2))
[2023-08-29 22:22:42.882] GAME-SAY: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) "thats it" (Medbay Central (97,103,2))

[2023-08-29 22:39:56.705] GAME-SAY: HalfAwake691/(Emerald Bromson) "a retard" (Central Primary Hallway (91,144,2))

For reference:
The ruling on "retard" as a instavalid/rule 11.

Escalation Policy:

If you are wronged, you are expected to handle the conflict non-lethally whenever possible, escalating in severity as the conflict continues.
As the defending party the rate of escalation increases with you, up to and including violence, while the instigator is always able to respond in kind.

I'll put my thoughts in later.

[Thranos]

I have been told repeatedly and by multiple Manuel admins that slur usage makes people valid, and that retard is a slur.

Could you name the admins in question? If you have been misled by any of us in the past, that takes some culpability away from you and into our hands. I am happy to sort through your ticket history to find this, but if you could give names it would make my search easier.

https://bus.moth.fans/tickets/199790/5

Just as a clarification, this is where and how it went:

At the very least reduce the amount of times youre calling them retarded, and Ill call it a good compromise.

I've said it probably less than 3 dozen times in total in more than 500 hours.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Good enough for me. Just dont forget that insults like that open you up to IC retaliation

Retaliation doesn't necessarily mean valid. Valid means you can be round-removed. Retaliation means starting or continuing escalation. Thanks for sharing, anyway.

I mean, that's what happened here, is it not? IC Retaliation. The QM talked shit and got hit, as it were. They were revived and demoted. They weren't gibbed, spaced, cremated, etc. They didn't languish in medbay for half an hour. They were revived promptly (by me).

were you not the first one to initiate this as a physical conflict, with the QM as the defender?

He was nonharmfully batonned a single time for responding to being told to do his job by the person in charge of him with hostility. He escalated this to repeatedly batonning and shoving me, and stealing my baton. This was when he started using slurs (I would like to note that in the event of log diving, he misspelled it at least once) as well, which prompted me to switch tracks from "yell at them to do their job" to "kick their ass then revive and demote".

[Timberpoes]

Headmin clarification:

Rule 11 specifically prohibits bigotry. If the slur isn't bigoted, it's just an insult. With the exception of ligger, basically any insult I can think of that I'd allow insta-validity for, I'd be noting or banning the person that said it too.

Under current policy, retard isn't a Rule 11 issue. Its overuse to the point of being a dick is a Rule 1 issue. This wasn't one of those occasions.

Any time an admin or a player talks about prohibited slurs, what they actually mean to say is being bigoted is prohibited. It's just that for whatever reason our admins can often use "Rule 11 issue" and "slur" interchangably, and tend to favour saying "slur" over the two.

[Timberpoes]

A key aspect of how the escalation rules as mentioned by Archie:

As a non-antagonist you may begin conflict with another player with valid reason (refusal of critical services, belligerent attitude, etc) OR if it does not excessively interfere with their ability to do their job. Whomever you engage is entitled to respond to your actions. If the conflict leads to violence and you had a poor reason for causing conflict in the first place, you may face administrative action.

If you are wronged, you are expected to handle the conflict non-lethally whenever possible, escalating in severity as the conflict continues. As the defending party the rate of escalation increases with you, up to and including violence, while the instigator is always able to respond in kind.

The instigator doesn't get to control the pace of escalation. The defender does.

Starting conflict with another player will not allow you to escalate beyond what they do in return, although you can always fight back kind-for-kind. If they never escalate to harmful or lethal violence, you cannot escalate to it either without very likely breaking escalation policy.

[Archie700]

Alright so.

You come in and demand the QM and cargo sort mail while he was doing cargo work. He shouts at you back. You then baton him for it. He batons you back, pushes you with the help of a cargo tech and takes your baton.

This is all IC escalation at this point.

He calls you a retard twice, I get that. Usually that can be ahelped and when we found out, I had a lengthy discussion with other admins about it and we eventually decided to tell him not to say it against because some people take it as a slur. But he was also frustrated with your actions and was using it as an insult at your intelligence and not as an intentional slur. And it should have been ahelped and handled.

What I don't get is that why you decided this was a good idea to get a 9mm gun and blow him away for it.

You had an egun in captain's office, you had a security team to arrest him and teach him about using slurs, you could have done this all non-lethally, and you chose to get a lethal weapon and shoot him to death. That's over escalation and misuse of your role as command/acting captain. You were the aggressor of the fight since you started the baton and we don't allow escalation to lethals over "retard" the same way we do over "ligger". Timber's post explains this. All this could be handled nonlethally or OOC with an ahelp but you decided to just blast him instead. The demotions were just insult to injury at that point.

In sum, what happened was overescalation. The use of the word retard should be ahelped and we will (and did) talk to them about it. But it was not meant to be bigoted, just an insult. Your answer was not good.

P.S. I also searched the attack logs and say logs and he only said retard twice before you fired on him. In fact the only other time he said retard was in response to someone accusing him of saying slurs to clarify that that was the only slur he used.

Game Logs
Attack Logs

[Thranos]

Alright so.

You come in and demand the QM and cargo sort mail while he was doing cargo work.

Sending out mail, especially when you have departmental delivery chutes, is in fact part of cargo work. People had complained that shift about cargo "not delivering", and going back to the logs, they apparently put out an announcement near the start of the round about how they were going to sell pizza instead of deliver crates.

08:59:12 SAY Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) (station announcement from the �Quartermaster's Desk requests console) "Hello Crew, due to budget cuts, my mental illness and the current economic climate of the sector, I am shifting the entire directon of cargo from boxes, to pizza. You can order pizza by the phone via holopad or PDA messages, or come right up to the desk and order. Also, if you want real cargo you better make it damn convincing, or else you are better off looking for it in maints."

He shouts at you back. You then baton him for it. He batons you back, pushes you with the help of a cargo tech and takes your baton.

This is all IC escalation at this point.

The batonning was due to responding to being told to do his job by the acting captain with immediate hostility. It was a single nonharm baton, on par with *slap as far as "stop that" actions go.

He calls you a retard twice, I get that. Usually that can be ahelped and when we found out, I had a lengthy discussion with other admins about it and we eventually decided to tell him not to say it against because some people take it as a slur. But he was also frustrated with your actions and was using it as an insult at your intelligence and not as an intentional slur. And it should have been ahelped and handled.

What I don't get is that why you decided this was a good idea to get a 9mm gun and blow him away for it.

Not ahelping it is on me, I had been operating under the (apparently false despite me being told otherwise in the past) assumption that it was any slur being used that made someone lose all escalation protection etc.
As for the 9mm, well.

You had an egun in captain's office, you had a security team to arrest him and teach him about using slurs

Security was (to put it generously) not exactly the best this round. Most of the officers were barely reactive on sec comms, and rather shortly after the whole 9mm incident, they all started speaking codespeak and carrying looted contraband for unknown reasons, as well as pepper spraying people randomly in the halls. They hadn't been particularly good even prior to this, so I was pretty disinclined to try to call them in.

That's over escalation and misuse of your role as command/acting captain. You were the aggressor of the fight since you started the baton.

The QM had effectively committed dereliction of duty at this point, and responded to being told to do his job with immediate hostility. He was batonned once, and chose to respond by physically hurling the captain out of his workplace and stealing their baton. I would not call myself the aggressor at this point.

All this could be handled nonlethally / The demotions were just insult to injury at that point.

I will again clarify that I revived him as quickly as possible after that. He had shown a complete disregard for the chain of command and already assaulted me once, on top of use of a slur that I had been lead to believe was a serious no-no on Manuel. The Demotions were my original goal, and what I had intended to do until he started throwing slurs around.

The use of the word retard should be ahelped and we will (and did) talk to them about it. But it was not meant to be bigoted, just an insult.

Usage of "retard" to imply impaired intelligence or cognitive function is a slur last time I checked.

[Sightld2]

I have been told repeatedly and by multiple Manuel admins that slur usage makes people valid,

I view this point of contention as especially important because if you have been misinformed, that is on us, and one of us should probably be yelled at for it. Specifically the use of the word "valid." While it is true that you can escalate against (Or in Conrad's delicate words "beat up") people for insulting you, "valid" implies that one could bypass escalation policy entirely.

But diving through your ticket history, I don't see any instances of Admins telling you that anything about slurs/insults and validity. And though tickets would be pretty much the only official place for policy advice, I also checked discords, including the Official Tgcord's help tickets and the unofficial Manuel discord.

I've just seen this in general voiced by both staff and players on Manuel: That yelling real life slurs, or anything that's a thinly veiled "IC" version of them (I.E. 'Ligger') effectively makes someone valid.

Only the latter example makes one valid and that was a ruling placed recently in this term. It is the exception not the rule, thinly veiled "IC" versions of real life racism and or genuine bigoted remarks should be ahelped for rules 3 and 11 respectively.

I cannot find instances of any staff declaring that it makes someone valid, but if you do please post them.

[Archie700]

Sending out mail, especially when you have departmental delivery chutes, is in fact part of cargo work. People had complained that shift about cargo "not delivering", and going back to the logs, they apparently put out an announcement near the start of the round about how they were going to sell pizza instead of deliver crates.

08:59:12 SAY Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) (station announcement from the �Quartermaster's Desk requests console) "Hello Crew, due to budget cuts, my mental illness and the current economic climate of the sector, I am shifting the entire directon of cargo from boxes, to pizza. You can order pizza by the phone via holopad or PDA messages, or come right up to the desk and order. Also, if you want real cargo you better make it damn convincing, or else you are better off looking for it in maints."

First, you didn't mention this in the ticket beforehand.
Second, mail delivery, while part of cargo, is a minor matter compared to delivering of crates, and you didn't mention crates when you complained to the QM:

Code: Select all

[2023-08-29 21:36:54.443] GAME-SAY: Thranos/(Laura Winters) "WHO" (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:36:55.876] GAME-SAY: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) "not really" (Cargo Bay (74,149,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:00.862] GAME-SAY: Thranos/(Laura Winters) "IS PILING THE MAIL OUTSIDE" (Cargo Bay (75,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:11.934] GAME-SAY: Thranos/(Laura Winters) "You have fucking |DEPARTMENT CHUTES| QM." (Cargo Bay (74,147,2))
[2023-08-29 21:37:15.134] GAME-SAY: Dr . Oof/(Spreads-The-Doubt) "me, and if you are gonna come in and yell, fuck off" (Cargo Bay (72,149,2))

Third, he mentioned that he would deliver real cargo if you have a very good reason, as stated in the announcement as highlighted.

The batonning was due to responding to being told to do his job by the acting captain with immediate hostility. It was a single nonharm baton, on par with *slap as far as "stop that" actions go.

And the hostility was due to you being immediately hostile to him by shouting at him to sort mail while he was doing other work.
A baton is not the same as a slap because it stuns people and is usually a precursor to multiple batonings or and arrest. The QM's reaction, while not ideal, was warranted.

Not ahelping it is on me, I had been operating under the (apparently false despite me being told otherwise in the past) assumption that it was any slur being used that made someone lose all escalation protection etc.

I do not know who told you in the past that saying any slur (ethnic or otherwise) made people automatically valid. I would like to know who told you. In any case, no, we do not automatically shoot people to death for using a slur. Ahelp if you're uncomfortable so that we can advise (or take action on) the person.

Security was (to put it generously) not exactly the best this round. Most of the officers were barely reactive on sec comms, and rather shortly after the whole 9mm incident, they all started speaking codespeak and carrying looted contraband for unknown reasons, as well as pepper spraying people randomly in the halls. They hadn't been particularly good even prior to this, so I was pretty disinclined to try to call them in.

This is no excuse to take a lethal 9mm to cargo and plug on the QM. Even if he had help, you could just call on security to help you arrest him because he took your baton, then brig him, if you really intended to punish him for calling you a retard. Even if you thought that security was bad and you had to take it to your own hands, grab a egun or stunbaton and cuffs to arrest him yourself and inform security why you're arresting him.

The QM had effectively committed dereliction of duty at this point, and responded to being told to do his job with immediate hostility. He was batonned once, and chose to respond by physically hurling the captain out of his workplace and stealing their baton. I would not call myself the aggressor at this point.

Except you started the conflict by batoning him, the QM has no idea that you only ment to baton him once. If you wanted to give him a slap, give him a *slap*, not something that temporarily leaves him defenseless to further attacks.

I will again clarify that I revived him as quickly as possible after that. He had shown a complete disregard for the chain of command and already assaulted me once, on top of use of a slur that I had been lead to believe was a serious no-no on Manuel. The Demotions were my original goal, and what I had intended to do until he started throwing slurs around.

If someone came in with a captain ID and their first words are to shout at me for piling mail outside the cargo office, I am not obligated to be nice to them.
I wouldn't have intervened had you just demoted them to cargo tech instead of blowing them away, but then I wouldn't intervene if you ahelped after the possible mutiny either.

Usage of "retard" to imply impaired intelligence or cognitive function is a slur last time I checked.

"Retard" has always been used as an insult to others for their intelligence when they should have known better. In this case, it was not intended as an actual use of bigotry and it's not the same as calling someone the n-word, which is linked to race. The only times it would fall under Rule 11 is when it is genuinely used in such a way that it is discriminating intellectually disabled people, and I see none of that here.

I'll reiterate that you shot someone to death over them calling you a retard, and it didn't matter that you revived them by that point because you over-escalated to begin with. You should have ahelped the use so that we could (and we did in fact) talk to them, and have a nonharmful way to either arrest the QM or get your baton back. The ban like this because of your history with escalation issues and abuse of command.

This appeal is denied, feel free to request a headmin review.

[Drag]

I have been told repeatedly and by multiple Manuel admins that slur usage makes people valid, and that retard is a slur.

Could you name the admins in question? If you have been misled by any of us in the past, that takes some culpability away from you and into our hands. I am happy to sort through your ticket history to find this, but if you could give names it would make my search easier.

https://bus.moth.fans/tickets/199790/5

Just as a clarification, this is where and how it went:

At the very least reduce the amount of times youre calling them retarded, and Ill call it a good compromise.

I've said it probably less than 3 dozen times in total in more than 500 hours.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Good enough for me. Just dont forget that insults like that open you up to IC retaliation

Retaliation doesn't necessarily mean valid. Valid means you can be round-removed. Retaliation means starting or continuing escalation. Thanks for sharing, anyway.

I'm gonna chip in at Archies request: What my attempt to convey in the ticket is this: You should not be calling people retarded for no reason. If you're just calling them retarded for the sake of calling them retarded, you're calling them a slur.

Professional mental health organizations consider "retard" a slur, because it is demeaning, hateful, and derogatory because over time it's become so generalized it's no longer fit for use to lable individuals with any level of mental health issues.

A TLDR on the ruling I attempted to make: If you call someone a retard because they did something stupid, not a bad thing to do. HOWEVER, you are valid for retaliation. You are NOT VALID. Retaliation means "act along with escalation policy". Being valid means you are able to be killed, this is typically reserved for confirmed antagonists. If you are calling someone a retard without them doing anything, you are escalation baiting. Don't do that.

The reason I brought it up to Brolly, was because I could not find additional context about the situation and went the safest route. Upon explanation I deemed it valid, but gave Brolly a reminder they were valid for retaliation upon doing so.

[Archie700]

Putting my five cents in here and not replying more to the thread. I was also told in the past that calling someone "retarded" in a targeted way was an instavalid. Exception being if you're calling a situation or non player "retarded".

1. Who told you that and where.
2. What do you mean by "targeted way"

[Thranos]

Someone might as well close this thread tbh, I only opened it because I thought the command ban was permanent (and only saw otherwise after it was already up and replied to).

[Vekter]

Sure.