Space Law: Rewritten: Remastered: 2

[mrmelbert]

Introduction

Some of you may remember that last term, the headmins threw out a potential space law rewrite into the forums, found Here.
This term, I plan on going through and adjusting our current version of space law.

Space Law is quite dated and I believe it needs a good bit of modernization to match the current game state and lore a bit better.
I took a peak at Paradise Station's space law page a few months back and was pretty impressed - The layout is nice, not hard to follow and goes into good detail.
I think we could benefit from something like this.

Space Law is not, and will not, become policy for Security. It is a roleplay guideline.

Goals

Space Law should serve a few purposes in game:

• For the standard servers, space law should operate as a general guideline for (newer) security players as what is expected of them playing security.
  • Given the higher amounts of chaos, space law is not always applicable, but these situations should be elaborated on within space law itself.
  • When dealing with crewmembers, what kind of crimes should you look out for? You know why a traitor or a heretic should be arrested, but what about thieves or even non-antagonists?
  • What should you execute people for, and when should you execute people?
  • When should you give someone leniency?

• For our higher roleplay servers, space law takes on a much greater purpose, dictating how security officers should be acting.
  • Security is, to a degree, expected to follow space law when handling criminals.
  • I don't aim to hugbox space law to a degree such that antagonists get off free from everything.

• Space Law shouldn't contain any orders or rulings that would get a player in administrative trouble for following it.
  • Brig sentence durations capping at 10 minutes.
  • Maybe a more thorough guide (or table) of when one should consider use of lethal force.

• Space Law is also "Lawyer job content". Lawyers should be able to utilize space law effectively in RP situations.

Ideas

So with all these goals in mind, as well as some suggestions from the last thread, here are some ideas I have in mind going forward:

• "Enemy of the Corporation" needs to be tweaked, at the very least.
  • Execution of someone on the grounds of them being "valid" is lame, yet I recognize the flavor of the ruling in character / lorewise.
  • This crime very often butts against the RP ruleset, as it's invoked to scratch an antagonist from the round despite committing few to no acts of actual evil.
  • Maybe instead of being a capital crime, EotC is a status, that is given to people who have committed certain capital crimes?

• How to handle people who have committed multiple crimes at once.

• How to handle repeat offenders. (The current suggestion is... not very good.)

• A tiered contraband list, to disincentivize executing people for possession of syndicate soap, as well as (potentially) a tiered list for secure areas.

• A piece on security use of contraband and its legality.

• Some edits to the existing crimes, or general tweaking of what crimes are on the list, to accommodate for the modern gamestate and reduce crime overlap.

• Tweaks to the "special modifiers", as well as including a section on when officers may be better off not enforcing space law

• A section on station alert levels.

Additional notes

With this space law modernization, we're also seeking to amend this former headmin ruling relating to space law codes.
While we definitely agree on the banning of 10-codes, we think that the banning of space law codes is dumb, considering it's available to all players on the wiki. In other words, people will be allowed to refer to crimes as their space law codes IC again.



With all that said:
If anyone has any proposals, ideas, suggestions, or just general feedback on what this rewrite sets out do to, this is what this thread is for!
Space Law is 100% intended to be roleplay / IC use only, so any extra lore or fluff additions / suggestions are appreciated.

[Timberpoes]

When it came to Space Law, I always felt it operated best as a shield, but not as a sword.

A player should be able to point to Space Law compliance as proof they acted in good-faith. It should represent the gold standard for handling a situation. They should be able to cite following Space Law as their defence in ahelps.

But failing to follow Space Law should not automatically mean bad faith. In an imperfect world, sometimes it makes sense to bend or break the rules. But players do that at their own risk, knowing they lose any protections or assumptions of good faith that following Space Law may have imparted on them.

I would absolutely support giving the Lawyer more teeth too.

[iamgoofball]

i am going to enforce space law so fucking hard on the crew

they WILL stop breaking the law 24/7 because they think this is a 24/7 ttt_minecraft GMOD server

[iamgoofball]

i am the person who sends you to the gulag for greytiding medbay

[BeeSting12]

I agree with Timberpoes in that space law should be used as a shield rather than a sword. Players should be able to use it to defend their actions as security, but they should not be required to follow it (as long as they're not erring on the more strict side).

I read through paradise's space law and my first thought was "how long are their rounds??". They prescribe 10 minute sentences for medium crimes lol. Our space law is better in some respects, but also slightly worse than others. The top section of ours is a bit of a wall of text. The lethal force diagram paradise has would be helpful, but it should be modified to fit tg's policy. It would almost need two separate ones for LRP/MRP. I don't think security should be obliged to revive people they kill for instance. In particular, armory trespassers, conversion antagonists, and people who are being shits with powers that make them uncontainable (hulks, etc).

[Kendrickorium]

>space law is really more of a guide

been saying that for years at this point

[cacogen]

either make space law policy or stop acting like it matters

[Misdoubtful]

I agree with Timberpoes in that space law should be used as a shield rather than a sword. Players should be able to use it to defend their actions as security, but they should not be required to follow it (as long as they're not erring on the more strict side).

I read through paradise's space law and my first thought was "how long are their rounds??". They prescribe 10 minute sentences for medium crimes lol. Our space law is better in some respects, but also slightly worse than others. The top section of ours is a bit of a wall of text. The lethal force diagram paradise has would be helpful, but it should be modified to fit tg's policy. It would almost need two separate ones for LRP/MRP. I don't think security should be obliged to revive people they kill for instance. In particular, armory trespassers, conversion antagonists, and people who are being shits with powers that make them uncontainable (hulks, etc).

I've played quite a lot of security on Paradise under multiple names both with the intention of playing it seriously and with the intention of being incompetent, 'slow to react', or just any other ways that weren't the norm there.

Starting to look at other servers rules is always a good start, but experiencing them and understanding their server environment and what they enable is a completely different step.

► Show Spoiler

Space Law is mandatory for the captain, security members, and technically for supporting crew on Paradise per the rules. Abuse of it leads to job bans or needing admin approval. Going against security in many cases requires approval.

Space Law and SOP is always in play, and normal crew and or sec, etc. definitely notice when people aren't following it.

SOP is huge on Para, and for sec it means the difference between being part of the 'in-crowd' or being flat out demoted, or generally avoided/ignored by other sec and players in some cases.

The crew in general has respect for space law, and take their punches without really much issue, fighting back, etc. Its very obvious when they are or are not antags.

Paradise has some serious antag injection that really gets ramped up as the round progresses, those timers and SOP (alert levels being followed as well) make things manageable for sec and antags in their environment. Quite a few events get incredibly repetitive, and kind a few people could probably dictate how the sec/antag interactions will go throughout the round with some serious accuracy. Which is to say it can get seriously boring and predictable for being the most important element of the game. That said, sec is normally constantly dealing with antags without much of a break that never get wiped out due to an unspoken respect between sec and antags to keep things going, for the most part.

Paradise has cloning.

Lawyers, magistrates, NT reps, etc. are taken seriously.

Paradise rounds are something that can considered really long. Definitely had some two hour rounds.

Proper crime coding, interrogations, collection of evidence, and brig timing is definitely a thing.

The list of things that come into play here goes on and on, that is just everything off of the top of my head.

The big thing here, is that space law on Para is cemented in the rules, in space law being something to take serious, in SOP's that are ever present in game, in how the crew interact with sec, and how sec interacts with the crew. Is something like what fits the environment I just described in the spoiler a good fit for the environment here? What is a good fit for here?

---

I'm not really interested in only looking at a slice of the security pie here if we are going to reference Paradise, that being just their space law page, its in all reality a lot bigger than that:

Rule 5: "...The Captain and members of Security are expected to follow and have a good understanding of Space Law and SOP (Standard Operating Procedure). Consistent abuse of these positions will lead to a Jobban; however, you may request to play a corrupt member of Security via Adminhelp, with valid justification;

Following, or failing to follow SOP is an IC issue, and should be handled and enforced in-character, not via Adminhelp, unless the player in question runs afoul of other Server Rules or the behavior persists excessively over multiple rounds. However, jobs which specifically involve SOP - NT Rep , IAA, and Magistrate - are required to follow it;..."

https://paradisestation.org/wiki/index. ... _Procedure
https://paradisestation.org/wiki/index. ... (Security)
https://paradisestation.org/wiki/index. ... _Procedure

Other servers go in the exact opposite route, and are able to make it work by labeling it as a guide to not getting dunked on by the crew, by creating the least conflict and reason for them to retaliate, and leave it at that.

Another few approach it as making a baseline level of respect on how to treat the crew and nothing more. Even then in those cases they also include space law in their rules as being something to adhere to.

If this is going to be left as just a suggestion with no meat to it is it worth the effort of trying to make it perfect or super saturated?

If its going to be added to the rules or in any way made into something to adhere to, is there plenty more about the TG environment to be considered?

As always the project management and process improvement side of me is not convinced by anyone in the slightest who decides to use the word 'should' as part of a reasoning for anything.

What is the merit to changes like these? Why do these tweaks and changes need to happen? What is this going to improve and how? What problems will be fixed?

Is this really only a roleplay guideline for security if on MRP it dictates correct action to be taken and how to take it? That is by definition the creation of policy and procedure, is it not?

[sinfulbliss]

Strongly agree with Timber's take on it. If a sec player gets bwoinked and can point to their actions being in accordance (or even directly from) Spacelaw, that should be enough to clear them.
I've definitely used it as a shield before. I.e., someone steals the hand tele - or any capital crime - but you opt not to execute for this (since that's lame), you simply keep in mind that they are now valid to be executed and can point to that crime if you find it prudent to execute them later for a series of smaller crimes (i.e. bolting brig doors).

I think making Spacelaw something that's seen as "the proper way" to play security would be very good, especially if the admin team is on board with it. It's happened before I've pointed to it and the admin has disagreed, at least vaguely, with the course of action Spacelaw recommends, which tells me it definitely needs work and probably misguides newer players to some degree.

That said it definitely shouldn't be a mandate, at least on LRP, since forcing sec players to use Spacelaw is overly restrictive. They should be able to get creative with punishments and how they handle crimes, even if it's against Spacelaw, so long as they know it both voids their metaprotections, opens them up to escalation, and won't be something they can defend really if they cross the line and get bwoinked for it.

[Timberpoes]

The way I see it, security is a very nuanced role which forces players into conflict. Every admin and every player will have their own opinions on what constitutes good and poor security play, for better and for worse.

According to the wiki, it's a mere IC roleplay suggestion. Indeed, "if you cite Space Law in an adminhelp or anywhere outside IC communications, you will be laughed at."

That makes our Space Law into a bit of a joke, really. Players who follow it may still get in trouble. MRP + "Enemy of the Corp" = being the classic bait that many new sec players fall for.

I think we can approach drafting Space Law in one of two major ways.

You can make it the absolute minimum requirements for a sec player to be following the rules: I.e. Space Law is drafted to replace sec policy entirely, it become an administrative document and sec players that break Space Law are in breach of the server rules. With the incredibly wild antag freedoms we have thanks to Rule 4, I'm not sure this is really feasible and just lumps a ton of additional red tape on top of both sec players and admins.

You can also make it a gold standard of Sec play - Elevating it above the minimum expected standard. I.e. Space Law is drafted to complement sec policy and by virtue of having higher standards than sec policy can be relied upon by a player to defend/justify their actions, but there is still that grey area between Space Law and rule break where players have the freedom and flexibility to act and react.

I think drafting it as the gold standard is preferable to our current status quo, and I think drafting it as policy would probably be worse than leaving it as it is.

[DaydreamIQ]

While I'm an advocate for Space Law being more standardised, there really will need to be some sections making it clear that you can't just execute people for being an EOTC. I think either removing it entirely or just having it be its own little sub-section would be better than risking things going the Paradise route where every Antag is grounds for Perma regardless of threat level and actual crimes committed.

Maybe replace it with a small guideline that goes over each kind of potential EOTC and the ways of best handling with them? Obviously it couldn't apply to every encounter as you do tend to get gimmick Changelings and Wizards who end up not being as much of an immediate threat as EOTC paints them, but it could at least give officers a broad definition of how to proceed with the asterisk of "Not every encounter will be this way, in such situations your own judgement will be paramount". It would also give Lawyers more of a reason to exist because they could actually make a case for the release of any EOTC if security couldn't prove they were causing any actual harm, assuming that standardising Space Law would give Lawyers more of a solid presence at least. We don't exactly have any rules forcing Sec to listen to them yet

[RaveRadbury]

Anything that could subtly give new players the clue that antags are more fun when you give them opportunities to develop (ie not immediately perma'ing or executing a heretic that was caught with a rune 30 minutes in and hasn't gained any power) would probably be a benefit. This has been recognized concept across servers from Terry to Manuel and even if we have to be a bit tongue in cheek about it, idk that kind of fits with our tone we're not hyper-serious even if we are dystopian.

[Itseasytosee2me]

Total removal of enemy of the cooperation is a bad idea, although I do believe their are ways you could alter it without compromising common sense and the ever sought after "lore."

Mechanically though, I'm worried that making antagonist status or contraband items something that antagonists don't have to worry about somewhat compromises the value of stealth. I despise openly operating traitors and heretics that people just ignore because they haven't slaughtered anyone yet. Antagonists should be operating in the shadows, and making use of items like the storage implant to hide their illicit goods. They should have the fear that a security officer might bag check them and find their stashed away energy sword because they haven't gone though the effort of hollowing out a book with wire cutters in order to make a secret compartment.

Antagonists add fun, and removing them stops them from ending fun, but we shouldn't protect antags who carelessly operate in the open.

[san7890]

-snip-

They should have the fear that a security officer might bag check them and find their stashed away energy sword because they haven't gone though the effort of hollowing out a book with wire cutters in order to make a secret compartment.

-snip-

I believe that your point on the whole is good, but this specific part doesn't track to me. Of course there will always be persons in positions of authority who leverage their authority against other persons, but it just always seems silly that in a non-emergent situation, you can have any security officer with no verified crimes stun you, check your bags, then blast your brains out. This doesn't happen so much more these days than it did with certain security officers on 2020 Bagil, but I don't think it's fair to have a "fear" if you haven't done anything wrong. If you smash a window up and get reported and arrested, sure, that tracks. But people used to just go around medbay stunning people who were solo, strip and ruffle their bag, and if they sniffed a bit of contraband, round is over. What if there was an altercation and someone who wasn't an antagonist picked up an energy sword for later use (which is a bit suspicious, but humor me for a second)? Should they deserve to get absolutely bonked for it without getting a word in edgewise on any level of roleplay server?

It's left such a sour taste in my mouth thinking back on it. I do agree with you that antagonists should be more careful about the gear they operate with (as well as what they have on them at all times, and whether or not it's visible), but I simply just do not think it is fair for all antagonists (and effectively the crew) for them to get harangued by a wandering hawk of a security officer while their stuff is pecked apart (and maybe even looted). Again, probably not a huge issue these days, but I really would want to take as many steps as far away from this sort of behavior as possible.

[Itseasytosee2me]

-snip-

They should have the fear that a security officer might bag check them and find their stashed away energy sword because they haven't gone though the effort of hollowing out a book with wire cutters in order to make a secret compartment.

-snip-

I believe that your point on the whole is good, but this specific part doesn't track to me. Of course there will always be persons in positions of authority who leverage their authority against other persons, but it just always seems silly that in a non-emergent situation, you can have any security officer with no verified crimes stun you, check your bags, then blast your brains out. This doesn't happen so much more these days than it did with certain security officers on 2020 Bagil, but I don't think it's fair to have a "fear" if you haven't done anything wrong. If you smash a window up and get reported and arrested, sure, that tracks. But people used to just go around medbay stunning people who were solo, strip and ruffle their bag, and if they sniffed a bit of contraband, round is over. What if there was an altercation and someone who wasn't an antagonist picked up an energy sword for later use (which is a bit suspicious, but humor me for a second)? Should they deserve to get absolutely bonked for it without getting a word in edgewise on any level of roleplay server?

It's left such a sour taste in my mouth thinking back on it. I do agree with you that antagonists should be more careful about the gear they operate with (as well as what they have on them at all times, and whether or not it's visible), but I simply just do not think it is fair for all antagonists (and effectively the crew) for them to get harangued by a wandering hawk of a security officer while their stuff is pecked apart (and maybe even looted). Again, probably not a huge issue these days, but I really would want to take as many steps as far away from this sort of behavior as possible.

Yeah, you are correct here. I'm not in support of random searches, they are lame as hell and probably qualify as validhunting even by the loosest definition. Also, don't get it twisted, I think on the spot executions are lame as hell, even with antagonist.

Still, if you are playing an antagonist like an antagonist, you will no doubt find yourself in situations where a security officer might be able to shove their grubby little hands in your bag, it pays to be protected. The difference between being a petty vandal and a syndicate saboteur is whether or not they find an energy sword they find in your bag, and I think that's how it should be.

[san7890]

-snip-

Yeah, you are correct here. I'm not in support of random searches, they are lame as hell and probably qualify as validhunting even by the loosest definition. Also, don't get it twisted, I think on the spot executions are lame as hell, even with antagonist.

Still, if you are playing an antagonist like an antagonist, you will no doubt find yourself in situations where a security officer might be able to shove their grubby little hands in your bag, it pays to be protected. The difference between being a petty vandal and a syndicate saboteur is whether or not they find an energy sword they find in your bag, and I think that's how it should be.

Although I tend to take the "take everything but the kitchen sink with you" philosophy, it's always worthwhile to keep your gear as contained and trimmed down as possible.

Apologies for sneaking in some other thoughts I had in my post, I just wanted to tie that in since I felt I was pertinent.

[chocolate_bickie]

Enemy of the corporation
'Enemy of the corporation' should be a sentence modifier, like resisting arrest.

One suggestion would be that 'Enemy of the corporation' automatically get implanted with tracking implants if available, in addition to whatever punishment they receive for their crime/s.

Clarifying laws
I think some of the crimes should be expanded on in detail. Dereliction of Duty for example is kinda hard to classify. Are the botanists who make nothing but Omega weeds in dereliction? What if they only make the chef potatoes but no carrots when asked?

Trials
The section on 'trials' should provide some examples of how to run quick trials. E.g. HOS is the judge, the arresting officer is the prosecution, and the lawyer is the defense. The trial runs concurrent to the sentence (like an appeal basically).

Chain of Command
This should probably be clarified a bit because departmental sec is supposed to follow all reasonable orders from their Heads of Staff.

It should also clarify that a Paramedic raiding the CMOs locker and declaring themself aCMO does not make them aCMO.

[Lacran]

I think EOTC could follow a tiered system like other offences that scales with the danger of the antag you've discovered.

Suspected By The Corp: could be level 1, directed at traitors caught with tator contraband or killing station pets. Punishment is tracking implant. (Antags who are not dangerous but may become dangerous.)

Opposed To The Corp: People who are clearly cultists or revs, deconvert/pacify.

Enemy Of the Corp: Nukies, Ascended heretics, murder wizards. Antags that exist to ruin your day. Execute

The Sabotage offense list should probably be reworked aswell as currently it is very non-specific and poorly worded, taking Grand Sabotage at face value, you can put someone in Perma for electrifying two doors, that's obviously not what Grand sabotage is used for. Would probably be best to refer to the scale of the sabotage, sabotaging a person, vs sabotaging a department, vs sabotaging overall station function maybe.

Lastly, the whole "bring up space law in ahelps or ooc and you will be laughed at" heading is really stupid seeing as guidelines for Security is legit the main source people can use to judge Security's actions and is brought up literally all the time.

People's attitudes notwithstanding on MRP it seems to have the position as a code of conduct to inform players of standard practice for the job role.

There should be some pressure to meet your job guidelines on MRP because otherwise you get people playing sec who have 0 motivation to understand any aspect of the job besides when they can kill a valid.

[Asternoxx]

I think corruption as a law should be added in contrast to dereliction of duty. This allows to demote heads, and security officers alike. (Especially acting captains who are traitors) This should be used as an incentive to start a trial against a head of department , to get the lawyer roleplay rolling.
Corruption should fall under category of bribery, bowing down to syndie pressure , explotation of ones position to gain something that isnt theirs, or be an indirect cause to a disaster or crime.
Trial should not be held if the station is in a huge mess, or there is sufficient evidence to press charges against the criminal.

Enemy of the corporation should not have the label execution just beecause they are an agent working for a rival corporation. One could add factors to that law when deciding the punishemnt for the suspect.
Factors being:
- Did the suspect kill someone.
- Did the suspect cause critical damage to the station.
- The department they are working in , how staffed the station is at the moment, and their contributions to the station. (Obviously this part is not to be considered if they went on a mass murdering spree)
- Are they cooperating (Extra merits for not resisting arrest, giving the code to the uplink, confesssing their crimes and surrendering to the security force)
Tiers of punishment could go like this:
- Removal of the uplink, tracking implant upon exit.
- Gulag/Perma.
- Execution.

[Bawhoppennn]

I don't think it really needs to be changed much. Space Law has worked just fine for greater part of a decade with few complaints (except for a handful of those who want it as enforced policy), and I don't see why that really needs to change all the sudden.

[blackdav123]

I don't think it really needs to be changed much. Space Law has worked just fine for greater part of a decade with few complaints (except for a handful of those who want it as enforced policy), and I don't see why that really needs to change all the sudden.

new players arent experienced enough to see space law as anything but gospel and the way it is currently written encourages them to validhunt indiscriminately and pick fights with people doing very minor things like entering tech storage

[Bawhoppennn]

True, that's a good reason. I think though you don't necessarily need a full overhaul, or changing the core premise for that though.

[Lacran]

I don't think it really needs to be changed much. Space Law has worked just fine for greater part of a decade with few complaints (except for a handful of those who want it as enforced policy), and I don't see why that really needs to change all the sudden.

I think anyone that has played sec at all has atleast a few problems with how space law is written.

A lot of the offenses are so broad and non-specific that they aren't used, some are flagrantly misleading to the point of potentially getting a newer player in trouble if they try to follow them to the letter.

Examples:

Pick-pocketing vs petty theft. Petty Theft includes taking items from a person and carries the same sentence. Pickpocketing has no purpose.

Sentence stacking: Under a literal interpretation a player that disarms an officer, takes their baton, pockets it, and runs just commited: Assault on an officer, (the disarm) Theft (Taking the weapon), and possession of a restricted weapon (keeping the weapon). That's a 15 minute brig sentence. If the player hides for 30 minutes without being arrested, they've sparked a manhunt worth 15 minutes, that's 30 minutes.

Sabotage: Terribly written and barely used.

[RaveRadbury]

True, that's a good reason. I think though you don't necessarily need a full overhaul, or changing the core premise for that though.

This is a discussion that has spanned two terms now, if you think that some small tweaks would fix the problems that people are talking about could you please describe them?

[Bawhoppennn]

My feeling on it was that the flaws described are still fairly minor. Ultimately I don't feel it's necessary to change it personally-speaking, but probably a few tweaks around the roughest areas (where people feel most strongly) would be the best solution for everyone.
The thing I have the most stake in though, is that I definitely don't think Enemy of the Corporation needs to be as nearly-so limited as some people suggest. If it were up to me, I'd leave it the same. The idea of enemy saboteur agents from hostile corporations being aboard and being considered as official enemies, is absolutely fundamental to the premise of the game.

However, I understand people have some problems with it nowadays. So, my suggestion is that we have a minor bit of policy clarification on the nature of automatically perma-ing traitors. Without wading too far into the contemporary rules on a SPACE LAW thread, here is my proposal:

I know nowadays everyone wants to try and give traitors extra chances to keep playing. So, I feel the best solution for that is we retain enemy of the corporation as is in terms of actionability for officers in the server policy. AKA, if you are confirmed traitor, you are automatically an enemy of the corporation. However, you are not automatically valid in terms of execution anymore, but only for perma (in Space Law, the logic can be that Nanotrasen wants enemy agents alive for questioning later).

Perma nowadays has a lot more to do and a lot more chances to escape, so it helps solve the problem of just getting unlucky and permaed as an auto-valid.
Importantly in addition to this though, would also be another slight change to server policy. I believe it would make sense to add a caveat to the rules, which would simply state, that from a PLAYER'S PERSPECTIVE, you are expected to look the other way unless they are absolutely 100% confirmable as a traitor (e.g. an uplink). If they didn't actually do anything yet, and are 99% a traitor, but you can't confirm it, that's when you need to let them go. For example, if you catch someone possessing a bunch of syndicate equipment, yet they haven't done anything, and you cannot confirm they are a traitor from an uplink, they are only a criminal for their contraband possession, but not just from being an enemy of the corp.
(Additionally, to help limit people getting unlucky, we could add a big giant text prompt for traitors saying to close their damn uplinks or else they'll get caught.)

I think these two approaches would help curb excessive valid logic, while still preserving the importance of enemy agents being considered... enemy agents.

Anyways though, I am the one who violated the sacred rule and brought up server policy suggestions in a Space Law thread, go easy on me please. I do think these suggestions might be successful, though I'll leave it to someone else to make a true policy thread if you're interested.

[Itseasytosee2me]

snip

Good take, I was thinking about this myself. Making confessions or other outstanding evidence a prerequisite for classifying someone an enemy of the cooperation could not only solve some of the problems that some people seem to have, but also allow for Emergent Roleplay Gameplay as a officer or vigilante struggles to find concrete evidence of a person traitorhood, despite the fact that they know in their hearts that the person is a traitor.

[Jonathan Gupta]

The enemy of the corporation and restricted areas being execution are a bit shit.

[cacogen]

Look, when Sybil shitters break into and rob the armoury as non-antags because the round is boring and there's only two unrobust people playing security, they deserve to be BSA'd. I'm not saying armoury thieves should be summarily executed in all cases, but entering that room without permission should feel like crossing a threshold of no return. Without meaningful consequences to players' actions, they lose weight and meaning and it becomes just a video game, instead of something more.

also the armoury should have more security measures in place to make it harder and therefore more meaningful to access and have guns that suck less instead of those shitty uninspiring lasers nobody wants

[Jonathan Gupta]

Shitters is a buzzword and it means nothing anymore.

[cacogen]

It means whoever the user is applying it to is playing the game wrong.

[Farquaar]

I like Bawhoppen’s take. Implementing it might also have the fun side effect of giving lawyers and detectives more to do, since the standard for proof would be higher.

[sinfulbliss]

Space Law shouldn't contain any orders or rulings that would get a player in administrative trouble for following it.

Was playing a recent round as security with a gimmick of enforcing spacelaw to the T. An interesting scenario occurred to me - "murder" is a capital offense, with the only relevant mitigating factor being self-defense. That means if someone kills a traitor simply because "valid" on LRP, sec can arrest and even give them capital punishment as per spacelaw.

One could even envision the scenario of the HoS executing a traitor on the spot without captain's permission first, thus turning a proper "execution" into "murder," for which his officers can now perma him (or even borg him with cap's permission).

Not really sure where the first scenario would stand administratively - perhaps this would actually be fine except in extreme cases (i.e., seccie executes crewmember for killing a cultist). These extreme cases are pretty common though so I think spacelaw should probably have another modifier added. I.e., "Enemies of the Corps aren't protected under spacelaw," meaning you won't be charged for assaulting a cultist or killing a changeling.

The second scenario is much harder to account for - if a seccie executes John McTide after his 16th time electrifying the brig doors, another seccie can now arrest and perma the officer for murder, because captain's approval is required to execute. Removing the requirement of getting captain's permission for execution would fix the issue entirely but seems like it'd really fuck Spacelaw for MRP servers and as a roleplay guideline in general.

[Pandarsenic]

Honestly, I'd like to see us have more weight put on what other servers sometimes call "Hold until transfer" - permabrigging someone with the IC goal of bringing them to CentCom for interrogation, escalation to higher courts, etc.

It's a bit Code-Solution but I still think it would be very cool if Security could get some sort of greentext for each antagonist they successfully bring to CentCom arrested in the shuttle brig. I rarely see sec do it because it's so much trouble for the RP reward of, oftentimes, having to put up with a shitter who's just salty they got caught and who won't RP back.

[Sacko]

If space law is a suggestion there is no reason to tamper with it at all. The whole thing is a show of smoke and mirrors. Whenever you want to stop playing the game The mirror shatters and the air is cleared. Don'tchaknow. That is the spirit of space law. It is more of a religion not a set of funny rules.

[Jamarkus]

I think EOTC should be behind a trial, so that both players can argue their points, and it gives lawyers something to do. someone is being removed from the round with this, so they should be given a chance to at least lower their sentence. plus it would make bullshitting EOTC to get rid of someone less optimal.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

So- starting this with "Yes, I know Space Law isn't policy", but I have no idea where else to put it, and we can have a Discussion about it. If a Forum Jannie doesn't want this being here, you're welcome to put it where it's supposed to be (wherever the fuck that is), but please make sure that someone who can actually do something about it is aware of the existence of this thread.

So. Enemy of the Corp. Everyone's run into a Seccie that's overly fond of it. Nobody likes it. But the thing is, its presence in Space Law is either entirely irrelevant at best, or active banbait at worst.

On LRP, we have Rule 4. Seccies are allowed to just execute antags. Enemy of the Corp, therefore, is completely irrelevant to them. It serves zero purpose. But it inspires people to do it. "Well- it says here that you should execute people for being an Enemy of the Corporation, like syndicate, wizards, cults, etc...okay."

"But Gung!" I hear you cry, "Who cares if they do?" And you're absolutely right. It is so colossally inconsequential that it's not worth talking about. Which also means there's zero benefit to it staying.

Now, on MRP, we run into trouble. A New Seccie wants to do things by the book. He wants to do it right. He doesn't wing cell timers based on what feels right or what action's worth what, he reads his space law and sets them perfectly. But then...he sees it. The forbidden words..."Enemy of the Corp".

"Capital Crime...Execution...Enemy of the Corp...'Including: Syndicate (...)'"

And he executes him. He gets half way back to the front door before he hears that cursed sound. The Bwoink.

Slight dramatization aside, you see the problem. New Players will look to Space Law as a guideline, and their guideline tells them to execute people just for being Syndicate. But under RP Rule 6, "Deal with the bad guys in proportion to their crime(s)", he's not allowed to.

In Summary: LRP; completely inconsequential. Unnecessary. People will continue to execute antags without it. MRP; horrible. Jesus christ what the fuck why wasn't this thought through. Actual Banbait.

[Archie700]

If the Seccie is to follow Space Law to the letter, then there's this.

Capital Crimes
These crimes can result in Execution, Permanent Prison Time, Permanent Labor Camp Time, or Cyborgization.
Only the Captain, HoS, and Warden can authorize a Permanent Sentence.
Only the Captain can authorize an Execution or Forced Cyborgization.[/quote]

[RaveRadbury]

So- starting this with "Yes, I know Space Law isn't policy", but I have no idea where else to put it

You put it here, I moved your policy discussion into the the thread for it.

[spookuni]

While I'm still moderately interested in a more in-depth rewrite of space law in future, that task is seeming daunting / time consuming enough that for the moment we've agreed to make the relatively minor change of moving Enemy Of the Corporation to the "serious" category of space law, with a slightly rewritten text.

Previous
Current enemies of Nanotrasen currently include: The Syndicate (through secret agents, boarding parties, and brainwashing specialists), The Wizard Federation, The Changeling Hivemind, and The Cult of Nar'Sie.
Note that this is one of the few crimes where you may summarily execute someone for if they present a significant risk to detain them.

rewritten
Current enemies of Nanotrasen currently include: The Syndicate (through secret agents, boarding parties, and brainwashing specialists), The Wizard Federation, The Changeling Hivemind, psychotic Mansus-seeking heretics and The Cult of Nar'Sie.
Enemies of the corporation should where possible be tracked or incarcerated until they can be transferred to central command at shift end for "interrogation" and processing.

Additionally: and to pre-emptively clarify, this does not reflect a change in enforced policy on any of our servers - rule 4 still applies as normal on the LRP servers, and RPR 6 still applies on MRP - this change is to reduce degrees of wiki side banbait on MRP and (hopefully) passively encourage a bit more interaction everywhere, it is (as with all space-law) not policy.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

So- starting this with "Yes, I know Space Law isn't policy", but I have no idea where else to put it

You put it here, I moved your policy discussion into the the thread for it.

Good to know, and thanks for moving it here for me!

[chocolate_bickie]

Sentence stacking: Under a literal interpretation a player that disarms an officer, takes their baton, pockets it, and runs just commited: Assault on an officer, (the disarm) Theft (Taking the weapon), and possession of a restricted weapon (keeping the weapon). That's a 15 minute brig sentence. If the player hides for 30 minutes without being arrested, they've sparked a manhunt worth 15 minutes, that's 30 minutes.

That's an intended feature. Where else am I supposed to get cheap labour for the gulag.