Tramstation (choo CHOO)

[Qustinnus]

Bottom post of the previous page:

it is an half assed and lazy attempt to create a map to just insert a weird feature that is 90% of the time broken

this is ironic

[chocolate_bickie]

Please add a public mining station/dock

[cacogen]

if irony is not a coincidence then why is that post ironic

[technokek]

[MMMiracles]

Is it possible to move tcoms to litterally anywhere else? Any problem in engineering will destroy tcoms without fail in the current layout. All other maps have made the choice to seperate tcoms from engineering.

Usually if the problem in engineering was big enough to reach comms, then a shuttle call isn't that far behind.

[Farquaar]

Hey Miracles, your new avatar is totally disco

Also, I've been thoroughly enjoying Tram. Though I wish that the bar was easier to access. Nobody ever goes there, and it's a shame. Maybe make it smaller and put it on the main floor by swapping its location with the lawyer's office? Or combine the cafeteria and bar into a single mess hall area?

[cacogen]

i would get rid of the expression but that's just me

if irony is not a coincidence then why is that post ironic

even i don't get it

[Mothblocks]

the sm delam isn't as spectacular on tram because the explosion and hallucination and stuff only work on that z-level, probably the same for tesla and singulo too.

that's not your problem, that's ours--we should support all that

[Farquaar]

Nuke Ops is a bit wonky because you lose the disk every time you drop down into the lower level of the station. Might there be an exception to the z-level rule for on-station movement?

[EOBGames]

Nuke Ops is a bit wonky because you lose the disk every time you drop down into the lower level of the station. Might there be an exception to the z-level rule for on-station movement?

That definitely should be fixed- could you open an issue report about that to make sure someone gets to it?

[Farquaar]

Nuke Ops is a bit wonky because you lose the disk every time you drop down into the lower level of the station. Might there be an exception to the z-level rule for on-station movement?

That definitely should be fixed- could you open an issue report about that to make sure someone gets to it?

I guess I could. I'm a bit light on details because the round was very chaotic, so hopefully I won't be wasting anyone's time.

[EOBGames]

Nuke Ops is a bit wonky because you lose the disk every time you drop down into the lower level of the station. Might there be an exception to the z-level rule for on-station movement?

That definitely should be fixed- could you open an issue report about that to make sure someone gets to it?

I guess I could. I'm a bit light on details because the round was very chaotic, so hopefully I won't be wasting anyone's time.

Nah, it won't be wasting anyone's time- worst that happens is we can't reproduce and its closed, but if it turns out to be a reproducible issue that's a major one for multi-z maps as a whole. If you're in doubt with making an issue, I'd generally err on the side of making it, since you'd be amazed what can lead to finding (and killing) bugs.

[Mothblocks]

we already have support for multiple station z-levels, we use it in ice box. it's a bug in tram that it doesn't support it, but a very easily fixable one

[Super Aggro Crag]

Sometimes i think the distance between the platforms should be greater so people have more incentive to ride the tram instead of diving down a z level and running to a ladder

[Technoturnovers]

People always build rails under the windoors so that nobody can get on and it is fucking obnoxious.

[cacogen]

I wish the tram had more stations and went in a circle because you just want to ride it endlessly but it ends almost immediately. An experimental map could be any of the stations except instead of central primary it's a tram.

[legoscape]

Please for the love of God, Make the tram underground and the main hallway above.

[MMMiracles]

Please for the love of God, Make the tram underground and the main hallway above.

hmm yes change the entire layout of the station and make the tram significantly more lethal in the process seems like a great idea

[Armhulen]

putting the tram out of the way so nobody has to use it is just the more spacious way of removing it completely. if you make unique ways of traversing a station be entirely optional with no benefit, nobody will do it.

[Pandarsenic]

People already avoid it as much as possible, when it's not being taken back and forth between the far stations as quickly as it can move by an assistant who put railings under the windoors to keep others out.

[Agux909]

The stations being way far apart from each other would greatly help making the tram more appealing. Think Black Mesa but the tram goes 3x the speed. Yeah add a radioactive pool down there for good measure too.

[MMMiracles]

People already avoid it as much as possible, when it's not being taken back and forth between the far stations as quickly as it can move by an assistant who put railings under the windoors to keep others out.

90% of the time when I hear this complaint my only response is "ahelp it" because what they're doing is literally station grief and if they're not an antag admins should be punishing them for it

[cacogen]

Please for the love of God, Make the tram underground and the main hallway above.

hmm yes change the entire layout of the station and make the tram significantly more lethal in the process seems like a great idea

You should change the entire layout of the station so the tramway is a central loop like the central primary hallway the other maps have. The ride would last longer, which would be a lot more fun. The departments would also feel less isolated. You should also make the tram look and feel less garbage when it moves and have less of a janky interaction with other objects. I don't expect you will, though.

The stations being way far apart from each other would greatly help making the tram more appealing. Think Black Mesa but the tram goes 3x the speed. Yeah add a radioactive pool down there for good measure too.

I've noticed the issue of it being far too short a ride to really be enjoyable too. But the departments already feel pretty removed from the main hallways, like I'm miles away from any activity. I don't know if spreading them further apart would help.

[Agux909]

The stations being way far apart from each other would greatly help making the tram more appealing. Think Black Mesa but the tram goes 3x the speed. Yeah add a radioactive pool down there for good measure too.

I've noticed the issue of it being far too short a ride to really be enjoyable too. But the departments already feel pretty removed from the main hallways, like I'm miles away from any activity. I don't know if spreading them further apart would help.

The main gimmick of the map shouldn't be a chore, and as it currently stands it kinda is. The time it takes for the tram to arrive you can just run and get there faster, there's no real incentive to use the tram other than being scared that it might crush you while you're walking on the rails, or trying to time it so you crush others as the clown.

The departments feeling super removed from each other would only be bad if there wasn't a tram. The map was designed for the tram so it should revolve around it and fully embrace the concept. Moving the stations far apart will make it so not using the tram will always be the inferior, less appealing way to move around (unless you're an antag or want to roam maint/move around undetected)

[technokek]

[MMMiracles]

People already avoid it as much as possible, when it's not being taken back and forth between the far stations as quickly as it can move by an assistant who put railings under the windoors to keep others out.

90% of the time when I hear this complaint my only response is "ahelp it" because what they're doing is literally station grief and if they're not an antag admins should be punishing them for it

Breaking or using the tram to roadkill is not griefing.

if you are actively calling the tram as a non-antag with intent to hit people or actively trying to break it you are griefing and i hope to god admins step up to realize this so cunts like you stop ruining the experience for everyone else

this is no different than building an infinite disposal loop or sabotaging wires to kill power.

[Pandarsenic]

It's probably more comparable to botanists filling the central hallways completely with banana peels, other than that...

The main gimmick of the map shouldn't be a chore, and as it currently stands it kinda is. The time it takes for the tram to arrive you can just run and get there faster, there's no real incentive to use the tram other than being scared that it might crush you while you're walking on the rails, or trying to time it so you crush others as the clown.

I'm gonna backtrack to this. At its core, I'm not sure if TramStation's conceit of "it's a station where you need a tram to get around" actually works? Because you don't need the Tram to get around; you only need to get in the tram to avoid getting hit by the tram by people who don't realize you don't need the tram to get around (or who think it's funny, or MRP, etc.)

[MMMiracles]

Tram's core conceit was never that you needed the tram to get around, it was the fact it was based around the tram docks as a central gimmick. The external airlocks and underground tunnel access was added as secondary ways to circumvent the tram at the expense of either being more directly dangerous (space exposure, getting hit by the tram if you run the rails), or out of sight of general cameras. The tram gives a purpose to the different layout while still being useful on its own.

Tram has been in active rotation for over 4 months now so I'd assume most people would of gotten a handle on learning to avoid the tram if they so desire and that's fine. Some people would rather not take the risk that comes with the tram and others still enjoy trying to push each other out of it mid-transit.

[Agux909]

I mean, I'm not leaving you feedback here to argue with your choices as a map designer, but because I care for the map and my experiences show me an increasing rejection from the playerbase every time Tram is on voting rotation. It looks like I was wrong and the novelty of the tram IS wearing off, and at an alarming rate. It used to be played a lot and it barely gets voted now, at least on Sybil.
The feedback is here, make of it as you will.

[cocothegogo]

I mean, I'm not leaving you feedback here to argue with your choices as a map designer, but because I care for the map and my experiences show me an increasing rejection from the playerbase every time Tram is on voting rotation. It looks like I was wrong and the novelty of the tram IS wearing off, and at an alarming rate. It used to be played a lot and it barely gets voted now, at least on Sybil.
The feedback is here, make of it as you will.

terry players love the tram it goes

icebox > tram > regular box > meta > pubby > effiencey > donut > birdboat > mini station > runtime station > delta

[Fishimun]

where's the custodial on tram other than that the map is good but i think maint is a bit of a mess.

[Okand37]

Great work!

Cool use of new and more modern features like multiple z-levels, newer decals, and new floor tiles. Really inventive way of structuring the station around a tramway as an alternative to the standard rectangular and crossbeam halls; I love the tram playing a central role with exterior access ways. Always a big fan of using asteroid turf and rock alongside the station map! Love the way the departments are organised and segmented; love the complementary pairing of cargo and research as well as the central placements of command, security, and medical. It looks like the map has a lot of room for potential feature expansions too with the spacing of the departments!

It looks like social areas including the bar, chapel, and library are fit snugly on the lower level. They look very comfortable! How are they fairing for traffic owing to their less visible placement? Your colour palette for the map is very nice and tasteful! It'd be awesome to see those designs be applied to more minimalistic lower level areas like engineering and science too (as shown on the FastDMM link).
Love to see your work as always, MMMiracles!

[sinfulbliss]

Great work!

Cool use of new and more modern features like multiple z-levels, newer decals, and new floor tiles. Really inventive way of structuring the station around a tramway as an alternative to the standard rectangular and crossbeam halls; I love the tram playing a central role with exterior access ways. Always a big fan of using asteroid turf and rock alongside the station map! Love the way the departments are organised and segmented; love the complementary pairing of cargo and research as well as the central placements of command, security, and medical. It looks like the map has a lot of room for potential feature expansions too with the spacing of the departments!

It looks like social areas including the bar, chapel, and library are fit snugly on the lower level. They look very comfortable! How are they fairing for traffic owing to their less visible placement? Your colour palette for the map is very nice and tasteful! It'd be awesome to see those designs be applied to more minimalistic lower level areas like engineering and science too (as shown on the FastDMM link).
Love to see your work as always, MMMiracles!

The traffic in bar/chapel/library is a bit slow since the west end of the station is only home to service and dorms on the normal-Z level, and usually people don't make a point of traveling to service for service itself, but end up there because it's centralized/on the way (as in Delta/Meta etc.).
Most traffic AFAIK is in the central area with medbay/bridge/brig.

Making the tram faster, perhaps adding a second tram (for travel efficiency), making the lower-Z more attractive to visit, would all be great improvements.

[Pandarsenic]

How exactly do you safely get a supermatter shard from the upper Z level (cargo) to the bottom Z level (engineering) if it gets out of the crate? Can it be done?

[lmwevil]

literally the funniest thing added to /tg/ that i've seen so far upon returning, this is literal comedy gold, we need more trams

[cacogen]

I find it really boring nowadays. When the tram broke every round and killed everyone it was highly entertaining. Now the map is just a janky tram that seems like it will never be improved surrounded by a mediocre station with an empty maintenance and the library, chapel and locker room disconnected from the rest of the station and devoid of life. Like most people though, I do like the bar.

[MMMiracles]

the duality of man

How exactly do you safely get a supermatter shard from the upper Z level (cargo) to the bottom Z level (engineering) if it gets out of the crate? Can it be done?

As of right now? I guess the perma elevator or the soon-to-be-added fridge elevator. I need to do a pass-over and make the station more 'handicap accessible' for these edgecases that haven't been addressed for multi-z code.

[Anuv]

Would be cool if ghosts could control the tram if it hasn't been used in a bit.

Ghost Train.

[cocothegogo]

Great work!

Cool use of new and more modern features like multiple z-levels, newer decals, and new floor tiles. Really inventive way of structuring the station around a tramway as an alternative to the standard rectangular and crossbeam halls; I love the tram playing a central role with exterior access ways. Always a big fan of using asteroid turf and rock alongside the station map! Love the way the departments are organised and segmented; love the complementary pairing of cargo and research as well as the central placements of command, security, and medical. It looks like the map has a lot of room for potential feature expansions too with the spacing of the departments!

It looks like social areas including the bar, chapel, and library are fit snugly on the lower level. They look very comfortable! How are they fairing for traffic owing to their less visible placement? Your colour palette for the map is very nice and tasteful! It'd be awesome to see those designs be applied to more minimalistic lower level areas like engineering and science too (as shown on the FastDMM link).
Love to see your work as always, MMMiracles!

The traffic in bar/chapel/library is a bit slow since the west end of the station is only home to service and dorms on the normal-Z level, and usually people don't make a point of traveling to service for service itself, but end up there because it's centralized/on the way (as in Delta/Meta etc.).
Most traffic AFAIK is in the central area with medbay/bridge/brig.

Making the tram faster, perhaps adding a second tram (for travel efficiency), making the lower-Z more attractive to visit, would all be great improvements.

I think if you make it so medbay is swapped with bar would result in an even distribution of players across the map I agree. left side of tram is usually dead as hell

[Googles_Hands]

I noticed that A LOT of cameras are oriented to not be "on" the walls but are floating in the air. This is something I've noticed accross multiple departments and hallways, I'd recommend for you to make a general sweep of the entire map since I've only made screeshots of a few cams in the general science area.

[BeeSting12]

Theres a camera floating in midair in the brig I believe.

[MMMiracles]

camera rework for wallmounts fudged up the camera visuals since apparently the directional icons are actually backwards, cameras are mechanically the same atm but looked fucked until this is fixed

edit: already being fixed here.

[cacogen]

security cameras should have code in their initialize() that rotates them to face away from an adjacent wall if they're floating or otherwise deletes them

[Googles_Hands]

camera rework for wallmounts fudged up the camera visuals since apparently the directional icons are actually backwards, cameras are mechanically the same atm but looked fucked until this is fixed

edit: already being fixed here.

Even though this PR is merged, it did not fix the camera issues. See my comment on the PR or just look at the map for yourself.

[MMMiracles]

this is not a drill, i repeat this is NOT A DRILL
THE TRAM IS NOW TWICE AS FAST (barring heavy lag/time dilation)

you have been WARNED

[Kendrickorium]

I have a lot of gripes about tram, I'll state that plainly

I strongly dislike the new bar/kitchen combo that was just put in

the old bar was a cozy little spot that enjoyed relative silence, a fantastic place for people to hang out away from the main goings ons of the crew and its antags
it was the closest thing to ice box's bar (the most cozy bar I've come across on any map I've played)

I get that you want people to mingle (it would be nicer if deltas bar and kitchen were closer together) but please.
don't take away the cozy bars.

[MMMiracles]

I hear conflicting views on the bar, its either a cozy hangout spot that people really like the design of or it's a dead zone that gets no traction and bartenders hate it.

Of all the balance concerns I expected with the map, the bar certainly wasn't the one I expected to be higher up on conflicting views.

[BrianBackslide]

I really like the bar and the size of the kitchen. It's got enough space to do gimmicks with, without feeling like I'm encroaching on the chef's area.
You have to go through the bar to even get to the food, so if the bar isn't seeing traction, whose fault is that? If anything, the bar isn't getting traction because the bartender isn't doing anything interesting, or something is taking much higher priority. (like Nukies)

My only real gripe is that I do find it a bit odd how far the chef has to go to get to their order console, but I don't want it to be sequestered to chef use only like on Kilo. This is probably the best bar design of the stations we have.

[Kendrickorium]

yeah, i suppose if I was a bartender that WANTED some hustle and bustle the new layout is really nice.

i miss cozy hide aways though

[MMMiracles]

chapter 2 preview after i remake maintenance AGAIN

i cannot be stopped

[Agux909]

I like trains.